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Anyone try this for a food safe finish on salad bowls?

Odie

Odie

Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
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This bowl would be suitable for use as a salad bowl......or as a fruit bowl......or as living room decor. I'm thinking of offering it as a salad bowl, and not do the Beale buff until after the customer decides what they would use it for.

It has Danish Oil natural on it now, and we know this is acceptable as a food safe finish after curing. I could forgo the Tripoli (EEE) and White Diamond steps, and go directly to the final step of applying the Beale Carnauba wax (which is also food safe).

If someone wants to use the bowl for home decorating, and not for food.....then, I could do the 3-step Beale buffing process. This is not food safe......but, it would be a much more aesthetically pleasing final finish......shinier.

This may be a good way to go.....and, give the end-user some options on what they would want to use the bowl for. It would also give me some options on a strategy for selling it. :D

How would one go about suggesting the end-user preserve the bowl after it leaves my hands....if they should decide to use it as a salad bowl? Do I suggest using the standard for salad bowls: wipe with damp rag and preserve with mineral oil.....? How would this, as well as salads, and salad dressings go together? Any problems there with using the Carnauba, and following it up with the salad dressings and mineral oil......is everything here compatible?

ko

IMG_2651.JPG
 
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Try to contact Mike Mahoney, associated with Utah woodturning symposium, but has moved to California , he uses wooden plates and such, note with use the surface suffers. He does sell a walnut oil with his name......Mahoney's Walnut Oil......Which one might say he promotes, which is a very good product. He has a large barn on his acreage that is impressive......And one of his reportore of rotations is a calabash bowl........My Calabash Zia series resulted from seeing that rotation. You could also contact Hawaiian turners who have historic examples of eating dinnerware, they also have a calabash form.
 
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odie said:
Do I suggest using the standard for salad bowls: wipe with damp rag and preserve with mineral oil.....? How would this, as well as salads, and salad dressings go together? Any problems there with using the Carnauba, and following it up with the salad dressings and mineral oil......is everything here compatible?

ko

View attachment 22127
Click to expand...

Food Safe is a funny expression. In order for a company to sell a product and label it that way it's gotta go through a lot of expensive hoops. So unless the company is trying to enter the food market, it just ain't worth their effort.

What's food safe to me is essentially anything that won't cause me any problems. So I like mineral oil on cutting boards. Most any water based finish like General Finishes products I am fine with on food containing items like bowls. So too Lacquer and polyurethane. Once cured, they are sufficiently inert for me.

Carnabua wax is a plant wax from some Brazilian palm. I don't know any thing at all about the edibility of the stuff, but I've never heard any contraindications.
Here is a web site where they say it's not going to harm any one https://www.isitbadforyou.com/questions/is-carnauba-wax-bad-for-you
and it is after all the internet where only the finest of peer reviewed scientific research is ever published.

Food Safe: The Japanese use an oil from a tree that produces Urushiol as a finish. That's the very stuff in Poison Ivy that most of us westerners all allergic to. The Japanese aren't allergic to it.


I have some straight carnabua wax. It's hard gritty stuff that I never figured out how to work with. I've tried melting it into paraffin & with mineral oil & tried melting it with solvents too. It was all just frustrating in the end.
 
Raul McCai said:
I have some straight carnabua wax. It's hard gritty stuff that I never figured out how to work with. I've tried melting it into paraffin & with mineral oil & tried melting it with solvents too. It was all just frustrating in the end.
Click to expand...

Speaking of mixing Carnauba wax with something else.....several years ago, I purchased several blocks of Carnauba wax from CSUSA that were mixed with something else. (I just tried to search for them, and it looks like it's something they no longer carry.) I tried these Carnauba blocks, and they left a surface that smudged with the touch of your fingers.....very unacceptable. I'm not sure just what they used to mix with the carnauba wax, but the blocks seem a little lighter in weight for the same volume. The carnauba wax supplied by the Beale company leave a much better, and seem more durable of a surface.......

As for what is acceptable for food use......or is "food safe" (I may have been a little reckless in using that phrase.) There seems to be a wildly varied opinion about what is appropriate, and what isn't. As you indicate.....what is, or isn't among those things that have an official USDA endorsement appropriate for use on a salad bowl? Can they be safe to use? There is the matter of the legal issues selling to the public a salad bowl that may be perfectly safe, but not on the list of those things on the list of officially approved finishes. The endorsement, itself, seems to be a barrier to a lawsuit. As a small time woodturner, should I be concerned?......or, is taking a reasonable precaution to insure the health and safety of my customers an adequate measure? Both the Carnauba, and the Danish oil are universally accepted as being non-toxic......isn't that good enough for someone like me to produce a few salad bowls per year? (Making salad bowls isn't my main interest, but I do have a few pieces of wood that seem to lend themselves to this purpose....so I do take advantage of that possibility occasionally.)

ko
 
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If it is a quicker finish, I use Mahoney oil. Otherwise I use General Finishes Salad bowl finish. Works real well, but does require a lot of applications. You can use a few coats to seal the wood too
 
odie said:
The endorsement, itself, seems to be a barrier to a lawsuit.
Click to expand...
Well being an attorney, I can tell you that there are not many barriers to being sued. But the question of ROI does sort of inhere. It's always all about the money.

Who might litigate over a salad bowl? I mean really? Who's going to spend the tens of thousands of dollars to sue a wood turner because he put an innocuous finish on a wood bowl? How wealthy might the wood turner need to be to justify the expense?

Among other costs: The plaintiff would need to pay testifying experts ( guys who spend most the year polishing their yachts) to explain, in scientific detail, to the jury all about the dangers and hazards that arose from the application of the finish and also how that finish then afflicted the poor plaintiff. That's a years salary (or more) for most folks all by itself (probably before taxes). And the plaintiff has to pony all that up front.

And then there is the harm requirement. To get in court one needs some kind of cognizable harm. From a salad bowl? I can't even imagine anything I could reasonably use as a finish that might cause harm.


And besides, they are not supposed to eat the bowl.
 
One thing would be how the finish would react to being washed with dish soap and water. I have a wood cutting board that has all the finish or whatever washed off. I have never thought of re-coating it. Wash it and let it dry in the dish drain.
Interested to see what others say here.
 
I would not think the beale system would make it unsafe. If you go all the way to the wax you are basically buffing off each step. The white diamond buffs off the Tripoli and the Wax or just a polishing brush would buff off the white diamond. If not completely, then it would reduce the levels to extremely low. This is purely a guess but if the white diamond didn't buff off the tripoli then you would have tripoli scratches. Same is true for the wax buff I would think. Back to litigation. One of my friends in the Rock Climbing community used to teach climbing. Someone asked him once if he had insurance. His answer was, what will they get, back back and my car that has 200,000 miles.
 
You really are opening up a can of worms Odie, the expectations of some, the mis-information of others, and the outright lies of the makers of these “Finishes” makes this for a never ending blabbering of users.

So first off, according to the feds, all cured finishes are “food safe” as in it won’t harm you if used as a finish.

Danish Oil ????, what’s in it ??? BLO, with heavy metals or drying salts to speed the polymerization, en what else, varnish and then a bunch of volatiles, en that is all “Usually in there” but oner stuf sometimes as well, or like in(“................... ........... finish”) with that “Finish” word not meaning what YOU think it means, but a way to get away with a lie, as this (“............. .......... Finish”) will make your workpiece look like you used the real stuff, which is NOT what is in their “Finish”.

Words like Danish oil finish, Boiled linseed oil finish, Teak oil finish or Tung oil finish or whatever finish that you would like to get, but aren’t, just a bunch of thinners and some fancy alkyds for a high price.

So in my opinion, anytime it says, something something FINISH, it isn’t :)

I stopped with using that stuff a long time ago, and now use the pure Oil that actually does polymerize and gets hard, no not Walnut oil, as yes it will eventually (months) polymerize but even then isn’t a hard finish, BLO with the salts in it will polymerize quite quickly en does get yellow and hard, So does Tung oil, but not the yellow like in BLO, or Polymerized Tung Oil that gets quicker hard and stronger than any of the previous, but it does have some thinners in it or it would be too thick an oil to use, so the thinner has to evaporate out of that finish.

These two oils BLO and Tung do polymerize fast enough to make the oily rags a fire hazard if left in a heap, you do have to take care of these or you’ll burn the place down.

Oh and I never ask people what they are going to use the bowl for, none of my business, besides they probably will change the use of it, or the next owner will.

My finish is good enough for a centerpiece or user bowl, salad etc for quite a while, as long as they do not stick it in the dishwasher or use it as a flower arrangement bowl with the water added, yup, they do come back with those, can you please fix this ????????,
 
Leo Van Der Loo said:
You really are opening up a can of worms Odie, the expectations of some, the mis-information of others, and the outright lies of the makers of these “Finishes” makes this for a never ending blabbering of users.

So first off, according to the feds, all cured finishes are “food safe” as in it won’t harm you if used as a finish.

Danish Oil ????, what’s in it ??? BLO, with heavy metals or drying salts to speed the polymerization, en what else, varnish and then a bunch of volatiles, en that is all “Usually in there” but oner stuf sometimes as well, or like in(“................... ........... finish”) with that “Finish” word not meaning what YOU think it means, but a way to get away with a lie, as this (“............. .......... Finish”) will make your workpiece look like you used the real stuff, which is NOT what is in their “Finish”.

Words like Danish oil finish, Boiled linseed oil finish, Teak oil finish or Tung oil finish or whatever finish that you would like to get, but aren’t, just a bunch of thinners and some fancy alkyds for a high price.

So in my opinion, anytime it says, something something FINISH, it isn’t :)

I stopped with using that stuff a long time ago, and now use the pure Oil that actually does polymerize and gets hard, no not Walnut oil, as yes it will eventually (months) polymerize but even then isn’t a hard finish, BLO with the salts in it will polymerize quite quickly en does get yellow and hard, So does Tung oil, but not the yellow like in BLO, or Polymerized Tung Oil that gets quicker hard and stronger than any of the previous, but it does have some thinners in it or it would be too thick an oil to use, so the thinner has to evaporate out of that finish.

These two oils BLO and Tung do polymerize fast enough to make the oily rags a fire hazard if left in a heap, you do have to take care of these or you’ll burn the place down.

Oh and I never ask people what they are going to use the bowl for, none of my business, besides they probably will change the use of it, or the next owner will.

My finish is good enough for a centerpiece or user bowl, salad etc for quite a while, as long as they do not stick it in the dishwasher or use it as a flower arrangement bowl with the water added, yup, they do come back with those, can you please fix this ????????,
Click to expand...

You know, Leo........I'm beginning to think along the same terms, here. This subject is discussed from time to time, and I don't recall the results being any different. There is no general consensus among woodturners for what is, and what isn't a proper finish to use.

Now, I do have the General finishes, salad bowl finish......but, I wasn't particularly happy with using it. I've got some lemon oil wax, that didn't seem very durable. I've tried a few things, here and there, over the years, but never have been too happy with them. I do have the advantage of having the Danish oil and Beale buffing system already, and am very familiar with using them.......

Never tried just using the third step (carnauba) in the Beale buff, but I'm thinking I just might do that this time, with this bowl, and see how it goes.

John......I do recall seeing some warnings about the EEE tripoli causing skin irritations, or something like that. I have that information stashed away in the box I keep the Beale supplies. Because of that, I don't feel comfortable using the compounds for anything intended for food use. If anyone wants more info on the precautions associated with the compounds, I can get that information for you......let me know.

ko
 
Tom Albrecht said:
What do you mean by "a lot of applications"? And, how do you apply it?
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What I do it flood the first coat. Let it sit, wipe it around, but not puddle. If it runs, it won't dry. I wear nitrile gloves and apply by hand with a rag (tshirt). I've tried foam brushes, but it caused too many bubbles and if it goes on too thick, it doesn't cure.
Then about every day , I wipe on another coat, usually scuff it a bit and take out any nibs and clean up runs. After about 10 coats, I sand with 800 or so then buff with white diamond and carnauba.
I will say, it is durable. I have bowls over 10 years old that still shine fantastic.
 
Steve, got transferred to that dolfin town, we stopped at grocery store before fishing, was not looking for nibs, but had to ask where the nabs were.....They never heard of nabs before, always keep some in shop/house.
 
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Tom Albrecht said:
You might want to check out the Real Milk Paint shop for better pricing: https://www.realmilkpaint.com/shop/...ing_wp_cron=1488673537.3390259742736816406250
Click to expand...

Tom with my Canadian dollars I need 32 of them for 1 liter and then shipping comes on top, so I do think there’s not much to be gained against the 38.50 at Lee Valley, where I can pick it up at the store or get free shipping when they do have that as a special.

Also I did not find the Polymerized Tung oil that I mostly use.
 
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John Torchick said:
One thing would be how the finish would react to being washed with dish soap and water. I have a wood cutting board that has all the finish or whatever washed off. I have never thought of re-coating it. Wash it and let it dry in the dish drain.
Interested to see what others say here.
Click to expand...

John our cutting boards are bare wood, they do get wiped clean or at best get hand washed with warm soapy water, rinsed and dried.

Our bread and salad bowls have been treated with Polymerized Tung oil, that is a finish that does not get washed off, it is in the wood and polymerized there.

When that wears off, a new coat of Polymerized oil is put on, and the bowl is again good for quite a while, works for us.

When the salad bowl gets rinsed, the water will bead and is then dried and ready for use again.
 
odie said:
You know, Leo........I'm beginning to think along the same terms, here. This subject is discussed from time to time, and I don't recall the results being any different. There is no general consensus among woodturners for what is, and what isn't a proper finish to use.

Now, I do have the General finishes, salad bowl finish......but, I wasn't particularly happy with using it. I've got some lemon oil wax, that didn't seem very durable. I've tried a few things, here and there, over the years, but never have been too happy with them. I do have the advantage of having the Danish oil and Beale buffing system already, and am very familiar with using them.......

Never tried just using the third step (carnauba) in the Beale buff, but I'm thinking I just might do that this time, with this bowl, and see how it goes.

John......I do recall seeing some warnings about the EEE tripoli causing skin irritations, or something like that. I have that information stashed away in the box I keep the Beale supplies. Because of that, I don't feel comfortable using the compounds for anything intended for food use. If anyone wants more info on the precautions associated with the compounds, I can get that information for you......let me know.

ko
Click to expand...

Odie the EEE tripoli when used in an industrial setting, like when polishing chrome plated bumpers, (remember those :eek:) en de operators did at their own risk in those days, not wear the masks and clothing for that, did sometimes get iritation on the soft tissue around mouth and eyes, as a person told me how they would come out of their shop black as a devil, he said he never had any problem with that, as he would always wear his suit and masks.
In my opinion, for the amount we use this and on wood, not metal with some not so good for you material in it, a mask is all you need, and more for the cloth dust than anything else.

If you read the safety data sheet you will see there is not anything hazardous in there, but when used in the manner as I described, there can certainly a condition being created that for some will irritate their skin, easy to take care of that, just wear a mask.

http://www.foredom.net/SDS/Tripoli.pdf
 
Still trying to rationalize the shipping costs between US and Canada.
I can order an item from China and have it shipped to the US for peanuts, but when I need to ship
some tools to Canada they rape me on the shipping costs and half the time the Canadian postal
service holds the package and charges another fee before the recipient can get their package.
 
Mike Johnson said:
Still trying to rationalize the shipping costs between US and Canada.
I can order an item from China and have it shipped to the US for peanuts, but when I need to ship
some tools to Canada they rape me on the shipping costs and half the time the Canadian postal
service holds the package and charges another fee before the recipient can get their package.
Click to expand...

Mike it is “Border security” that has to release packets, they quite often open them to inspect, (drugs guns ammo) and that takes some time, and they are not rushed by most anyone.
Though going the other way is often a hassle as well, I do know that from personal experience.
Though I’ll get things like say hearing aid batteries out of the US (Hawaii) faster than out of Hong Kong, it all depends.
 
I just had the distasteful task of deleting the last several posts. Only the first of them was offensive and violated forum rules regarding civil behavior, but without the offending post, there wasn't any context for the replies so they also were deleted. Sorry for the inconvenience folks.
 
Leo Van Der Loo said:
Odie the EEE tripoli when used in an industrial setting, like when polishing chrome plated bumpers, (remember those :eek:) en de operators did at their own risk in those days, not wear the masks and clothing for that, did sometimes get iritation on the soft tissue around mouth and eyes, as a person told me how they would come out of their shop black as a devil, he said he never had any problem with that, as he would always wear his suit and masks.
In my opinion, for the amount we use this and on wood, not metal with some not so good for you material in it, a mask is all you need, and more for the cloth dust than anything else.

If you read the safety data sheet you will see there is not anything hazardous in there, but when used in the manner as I described, there can certainly a condition being created that for some will irritate their skin, easy to take care of that, just wear a mask.

http://www.foredom.net/SDS/Tripoli.pdf
Click to expand...

Leo......I've never had a problem with the EEE, and I'm currently not using breathing protection when I buff. I do use OTG safety glasses, or a bionic face shield, tho...... I was more concerned about the safety/health of anyone who ended up using my bowls for food purposes. There, I have no control over how they would use it, or react from ingesting some EEE particles. The EEE might be safe, but for my own peace of mind, I think I'll skip using it for bowls intended for food use.......

ko
 
If it is for your own peace of mind Odie, then yes why not do that, for me I do use it at times for things that will probably not be used for food serving and will look better with more shine, for the salad bowl or other pieces that would or could be used for that, I usually do not, and I am not much for high gloss on those anyway.
 
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