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Armor All on Cedar - Help!

Alex Bradley

Alex Bradley

Joined
Oct 28, 2021
Messages
48
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131
Location
Louisville, CO
Anyone have experience using Armor All for a finish? I am trying to finish a tall cedar piece of my dad's that a collector commissioned for him before he passed. I have removed the original finish with 8+ hours of hand sanding and did some repairs. The original finish didn't take evenly. He used Armor All on other cedar pieces and I am trying to replicate/be true to his technique. All I know is that he would apply the Armor All with 1200 wet/dry sandpaper. I saturated the piece and rubbed off excess before it totally dried. It absorbed a bit unevenly in some areas but is now totally absorbed/dried and you can't even tell I put the finish on at all. Assuming it will take many coats to build up a satin finish. Wanted to ask if anyone has experience and can provide tips. Really wishing I had just put Osmo on it and called it! Thank you for any wisdom!!!
 
Alex Bradley said:
Anyone have experience using Armor All for a finish? I am trying to finish a tall cedar piece of my dad's that a collector commissioned for him before he passed. I have removed the original finish with 8+ hours of hand sanding and did some repairs. The original finish didn't take evenly. He used Armor All on other cedar pieces and I am trying to replicate/be true to his technique. All I know is that he would apply the Armor All with 1200 wet/dry sandpaper. I saturated the piece and rubbed off excess before it totally dried. It absorbed a bit unevenly in some areas but is now totally absorbed/dried and you can't even tell I put the finish on at all. Assuming it will take many coats to build up a satin finish. Wanted to ask if anyone has experience and can provide tips. Really wishing I had just put Osmo on it and called it! Thank you for any wisdom!!!
Click to expand...
Wish I could help but have never thought about armor all as a finish. Interesting that he chose it for cedar pieces. I do find cedar harder to finish than most woods. Did he use it on any other woods?
 
I see there are a lot of cleaning and shining products sold under the Armor All brand. If you're talking about Armor All Original Protectant, the stuff you use to shine up your dashboard, its active ingredient is PDMS, polydimethylsiloxane, aka silicone. It looks like it's a form of silicone that doesn't cure or have any reactive groups to adhere to the wood fibers. So it would behave like mineral oil. Not a great choice for finishing cedar in my opinion. As Darryl/Pete says, maybe it was something else?

In my experience, cedar is very thirsty, soaks up a lot of wipe on type finishes before the finish starts to build and become visible. A couple coats of thinned shellac or other sealer can speed up the process.
 
My only experience with armourall was to see if it protects wood from the discoloration by UV light. Especially trying to keep box elder red from fading. It does not work.
 
john lucas said:
My only experience with armourall was to see if it protects wood from the discoloration by UV light. Especially trying to keep box elder red from fading. It does not work.
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Many years ago I tested Armor All (as well as some other finishes) to see if it would keep the color on Cocobolo from getting dark. Didn't work.
 
Tom Gall said:
Many years ago I tested Armor All (as well as some other finishes) to see if it would keep the color on Cocobolo from getting dark. Didn't work.
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john lucas said:
My only experience with armourall was to see if it protects wood from the discoloration by UV light. Especially trying to keep box elder red from fading. It does not work.
Click to expand...

Do either of you recall how you applied the Armor All? Might help @Alex Bradley ?
 
Alex Bradley said:
Thanks everyone! He did use the Armor All Original Protectant. So then the next question is if anyone has a finish that they do like to use on Cedar?
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I'd say (in my inexperienced opinion) that i f you already have armor all into the wood, that silcone content is gonna kill any final finish, so your best bet may be to seal it in with shellac, build up a nice matte shellac finish and then you could buff it with armor-all after the fact, but I'd not apply armor all (or any other similar wax or silicone finish) as a first coat... Others perhaps may have better suggestions, but I think any finish you try to apply on top of armor all other than maybe shellac, is going to have problems...
 
Alex Bradley said:
...anyone has a finish that they do like to use on Cedar?
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I didn't see if you said what kind of cedar. All the cedar I know of around here is Easter Red Cedar.

I use one of several finishes on ERC, depending on my mood and the intended use.

- Straight bees wax. Either rubbed in with a rag or more often, rubbed on from a stick of beeswax then melted with a heat gun will soak into the wood, cloth to spread. Entirely different look.

Beeswax rubbed on with cloth.
penta_plates_comp_cropped.jpg

Melted beeswax.
cedar_bowl_figured.jpg

Lacquer. This has multiple coats of spray lacquer, some coats rubbed with 0000 steel wool.
cedar_vessel.jpg

"Danish oil", multiple coats over multiple days, let dry between coats. Use the oil a lot on various spindles, especially those with detail and texturing.
penta_platter_cedar_IMG_7434.jpg

I've also used shellac, shellac-based friction polish, spray acrylic, and others. Never even imagined using Armor All as a finsh. I have many more photos of cedar pieces but I'm out of energy. (just in from hours of tractor work in the hot sun)

If you're trying to match the finish on another piece you might do one or two things: one, post some pictures of what you're trying to match; two, try prepare sample turnings from cedar and try various finishes.

If you've sanded to remove a finish, depending the original some may have soaked in deep into the wood, might affect the look of what you put on top. I like the suggestion of a coat of shellac. But couldn't use a penetrating finish then. Matching finishes can be difficult.

JKJ
 
Most of the cedar I've turned is small. Exact species unknown, although some is actually Rocky Mountain Juniper. Since they're small, they're usually for display or things like key/trinket bowls and I leave them unfinished. Mainly cause I don't want to mess with the aroma. And cedar is pretty weather-resistant, so I figure the finish is unnecessary.
 
Brian Gustin said:
I'd say (in my inexperienced opinion) that i f you already have armor all into the wood, that silcone content is gonna kill any final finish, so your best bet may be to seal it in with shellac, build up a nice matte shellac finish and then you could buff it with armor-all after the fact, but I'd not apply armor all (or any other similar wax or silicone finish) as a first coat... Others perhaps may have better suggestions, but I think any finish you try to apply on top of armor all other than maybe shellac, is going to have problems...
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Do you have a piece of similar cedar you can experiment with?

As Brian pointed out silicone residue may be a problem, but you may be able to get a uniform finish with shellac. If it doesn't go on well, then shellac can be dissolved with DNA, rather than more sanding. If you get a good finish with shellac, then maybe stop there. (I, personally, wouldn't put on more Armor All).
 
Apropos of nothing at all: Westerners hear "eastern red cedar" and think, "Oh, those little shrub-like trees." Stands of juniper/ERC were planted in the west but they don't grow very tall for whatever reason (maybe they aren't really ERC). Here in the eastern US, they get 80 ft tall and 36" diameter.
 
Alex's dad lived in an area where "cedar" is the common name applied to Rocky Mountain Juniper. It's very similar to Eastern Red Cedar, afaik. He might also have obtained some true cedar from elsewhere. That said, the question is, has anyone used Armorall as a finish, on anything? (Alex, you do come up with the most interesting conundrums)
 
Kent Reisdorph said:
Apropos of nothing at all: Westerners hear "eastern red cedar" and think, "Oh, those little shrub-like trees."
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In about 1999 a storm went thru the southern suburbs of MPLS and a friend that lived there told me about a juniper that had been blown down. I took my recently acquired Wood-Mizer mill, found the tree in the yard of an older house that had originally been a farmhouse, cut it off the stump, cut it into 100" lengths and proceeded to mill it into 1 bys. The butt log measured 30" diameter and I was able to cut several up to 16" knott free boards before reaching the area about 10" diameter, where I started to encounter chicken wire. So whos to say that there was never a stand of trees that got cleared for farmland.
 
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Kent Reisdorph said:
...Here in the eastern US, they get 80 ft tall and 36" diameter.
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THAT's what I like to find! A good cedar log, without rot in the middle (or just a little), anything 12-28" is perfect for my mill. I feel like I've hit the jackpot when I get the red cedar that contains a lot of white streaks and interesting figure.

This log has just a little rot in the middle, often a home for big black ants.
sawmill_cedar_log_cant.jpg
cedar_fresh_IMG_20171205_133128_661.jpg
I like to cut slabs 2" and thicker and sticker/stack for initial drying, then cut into squares and shallow bowl/platter blanks and finish drying in the shop.
Sometimes saw much thicker blanks and air dry them.
cedar_P9064287es.jpg

ERC is one of the easiest to dry. If in a hurry I'll spread out boards on a bit flatbed trailer in the sun and flip them over several times a day. Dry in short order. ERC is amazingly stable.

A big shame: a guy down the road has two BIG cedar trees he wants taken down. However, his new neighbor, who doesn't know any better, said he want's it all for firewood. I'd gladly give him oak and even split it if I could get those logs.

I don't think I've ever turned western cedar. It is also very fine grained? Full of color and figure?

JKJ
 
John K Jordan said:
THAT's what I like to find! A good cedar log, without rot in the middle (or just a little), anything 12-28" is perfect for my mill. I feel like I've hit the jackpot when I get the red cedar that contains a lot of white streaks and interesting figure.

This log has just a little rot in the middle, often a home for big black ants.
View attachment 79189
View attachment 79187
I like to cut slabs 2" and thicker and sticker/stack for initial drying, then cut into squares and shallow bowl/platter blanks and finish drying in the shop.
Sometimes saw much thicker blanks and air dry them.
View attachment 79188

ERC is one of the easiest to dry. If in a hurry I'll spread out boards on a bit flatbed trailer in the sun and flip them over several times a day. Dry in short order. ERC is amazingly stable.

A big shame: a guy down the road has two BIG cedar trees he wants taken down. However, his new neighbor, who doesn't know any better, said he want's it all for firewood. I'd gladly give him oak and even split it if I could get those logs.

I don't think I've ever turned western cedar. It is also very fine grained? Full of color and figure?

JKJ
Click to expand...

Agree on the carpenter ants decimating old cedars.

Burn ERC? That's nonsense, as you know. The BTU rating on ERC must be nonexistent compared to hardwoods.
 
Some friends of mine had a neighbor take down a large black walnut tree, they were tired of the walnuts in the yard. Another neighbor offered to take it down (and remove the stump) if they could keep the wood for burning. The base diameter was close to 3' from what I hear. I cringed, but did find out that some of the larger branches were still available on a burn pile. Was able to at least salvage a few for some smaller turnings. By the time I found out about it he has already cut up as split the logs for firewood.
 
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