Bowl gouge orientation for a "finishing cut". Almost a catch is what I want!

[odie]

Depending on your choice of grinds, the bowl gouge orientation may vary some in finding the very best possible presentation of cutting edge to wood. The principle of applying a sharp edge for getting the very best/cleanest possible finishing cut seems to be a constant, and not the product of the grind shape itself. After years of using the various swept-back grinds using the Wolverine Vari-grind Jig, my current personal choice of grinds is the traditional grind, produced without using the Vari-grind jig, and by using the V-arm exclusively while spinning the gouge along it's longitudinal axis against the grinding wheel. (I am not suggesting anyone change their choices in the types of gouge grinds they use, but to convey the thinking that the principles applied here are the same, because the very tip of the cutting edge is the same, no matter how the shape of the grind leading up to the cutting edge may differ.)

The actual cutting action being the same, the very tip of the bowl gouge cutting edge is stabilized within the cut, from/by three contact points.....the bevel, the tool rest, and your hands. For the purposes of this discussion, I am only discussing the contact point at the tool rest. We may consider this the "fulcrum". At the fulcrum. the gouge cutting edge presentation is adjusted three ways: handle up/down, handle left/right, and along it's longitudinal axis, or a rolling motion throughout the breadth of the cut. The presentation will change dramatically, depending on your choice of tool rest height, as well. The total concept of getting that perfect cut, is the relationship of all these components throughout the cut......and, all of them are in a constant state of change during the breadth of that cut.....and, this is because the profile of the bowl is a curve, and not a straight line. It is a "fluid" motion, and your state of awareness is the key to engineering the perfect cut.

All of the more experienced turners get an "instinct" as to what presentation will produce a "catch", and most of us instinctually avoid going anywhere near it. In recent years, I've been increasingly aware that the best, cleanest possible cut is very close to the presentation that produces "the catch". The closer I can come to having a catch, without actually getting one, is what I've been striving for......and, the results I've been getting have seen incredible improvements in some of my "tool finishes"......tool finishes that require the bare minimum of sanding. (This is the ultimate goal.)

Stated here.....All this is applicable to very light delicate finishing cuts, and absolutely not to be applied to heavy cuts. If you experiment with these principles using heavy cuts, when you do get a catch, it will be much more dramatic, severe, and very dangerous to your safety. (Newbies, take note!)

All of this is related to my previous proclamations about "spiritual turning", but a completely different concept entirely! Although it does apply to some degree, spiritual turning is the ability to perceive through your hands, ears, eyes, and mind.....all while the cutting action is in progress.......

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

recent years, I've been increasingly aware that the best cut is very close to the presentation that produces the catch.

Interesting comment.
1. With the Ellsworth grind the cleanest cut on the inside of a bowl is the shear cut on the leading edge of the wing With the flute up. this is a difficult cut to learn because it is close to a catch. The trick is holding the tool lightly so it can roll with the curve.

2. However the cleanest cut on the outside is with a pull cut. The two ways to get a catch with a pull cut both make the cut less efficient. One is to bring the handle up to level And the other is to let the nose contact the wood.
proper pull cut is not close to a catch.

in both cuts it is the shear angle and bevel angle that produce the clean cuts, one is close to a catch the other far away from it.
with the flute up shear cut on the leading edge of the wing the shear angle is around 60 degrees and the bevel angle 40-45
with the pull cut the shear angle is between 80 and 45 degrees and the bevel angle is around 30 degrees..

 

[odie]

Interesting comment.
1. With the Ellsworth grind the cleanest cut on the inside of a bowl is the shear cut on the leading edge of the wing With the flute up. this is a difficult cut to learn because it is close to a catch. The trick is holding the tool lightly so it can roll with the curve.

2. However the cleanest cut on the outside is with a pull cut. The two ways to get a catch with a pull cut both make the cut less efficient. One is to bring the handle up to level And the other is to let the nose contact the wood.
proper pull cut is not close to a catch.

in both cuts it is the shear angle and bevel angle that produce the clean cuts, one is close to a catch the other far away from it.
with the flute up shear cut on the leading edge of the wing the shear angle is around 60 degrees and the bevel angle 40-45
with the pull cut the shear angle is between 80 and 45 degrees and the bevel angle is around 30 degrees..

Hello Al.......

Yes, I think you are aware of some of the concepts I've been trying to describe above. I do believe some of our awareness thresholds overlap, but may not be exactly the same. The principles do apply.

Good comment.....thank you!

-----odie-----

 

[William Rogers]

Odie, I don’t disagree with you. I don’t have the experience of you or Al, just my own experience and beliefs. I no longer use the Vari-grind. I now use the Hannes Vector grind. I feel it produces a different profile between the nose and wing of the gouge. I realize the Vari-grind has been somewhat of the standard. With the Vari-grind you are grinding from a central pivot point. With the Vector jig you are grinding from two offset points and this creates a better profile for the wings and transition from the nose, again IMO. I feel I reach that “point” of the best cut without being on the edge of my seat getting a catch. I haven’t had a catch since I started using the Vector grind. I think it is more of the profile rather than me getting better. While your analysis may well be true for the Vari-grind I dot think is applicable to the Vector grind jig.

 

[odie]

Odie, I don’t disagree with you. I don’t have the experience of you or Al, just my own experience and beliefs. I no longer use the Vari-grind. I now use the Hannes Vector grind. I feel it produces a different profile between the nose and wing of the gouge. I realize the Vari-grind has been somewhat of the standard. With the Vari-grind you are grinding from a central pivot point. With the Vector jig you are grinding from two offset points and this creates a better profile for the wings and transition from the nose, again IMO. I feel I reach that “point” of the best cut without being on the edge of my seat getting a catch. I haven’t had a catch since I started using the Vector grind. I think it is more of the profile rather than me getting better. While your analysis may well be true for the Vari-grind I dot think is applicable to the Vector grind jig.

Did you read my OP, William? It's all about presentation of the cutting edge, and not the particular grind being used.

I don't use the Vari-grind jig anymore. I'm using a traditional grind these days, and you can curve that wing over like the Hannes vector jig does......just a matter of rotating the tool a bit further while grinding. While turning, I usually find my "sweet spot" without the need for cutting all the way out to the end of the wing anyway......so, I'm not getting the confidence that the Hannes Vector is an advantage for what I'm attempting to describe here.

I haven't used the Vector jig, but I have watched the videos. It is an interesting concept. Since I haven't used the Vector jig, it would be appropriate to extend to you a little "benefit of the doubt" with it's application in your turning......not necessarily with my turning.

As always, my friend.......results are the only things that matter...........and, if you are getting finely executed cuts that require the bare minimum of sanding on dry hard, dense woods, then great! You should have no problems producing multiple finely executed aesthetically appealing details in your bowl turning.

-----odie-----

 

[Doug Freeman]

Odie,

Please elaborate on the specific cuts you make with the traditional grind that are “close to a catch”. Like @hockenbery I use an Ellsworth grind and the flute up ID finish cut. I’m always open to other techniques and want to understand in detail the cuts you do, in order to try them out, regardless of the grind (one reason I keep “value” tools around - not afraid to try different grinds and techniques).

 

[odie]

Odie,

Please elaborate on the specific cuts you make with the traditional grind that are “close to a catch”. Like @hockenbery I use an Ellsworth grind and the flute up ID finish cut. I’m always open to other techniques and want to understand in detail the cuts you do, in order to try them out, regardless of the grind (one reason I keep “value” tools around - not afraid to try different grinds and techniques).

Howdy Doug.....

I am pretty much in agreement with Al on the outside pull cuts. For bowls, I seldom have push cuts on the outside, but it does happen occasionally. The inside side walls are nearly always done in a push-cut fashion......with the exception of an undercut rim. On the inside, sometimes I transition from a push cut to a pull cut while transitioning from the side wall to the bottom. If I don't, it's one complete movement. If I do, it's done in two steps. Either way, the gouge is usually rotated on it's longitudinal axis in the transition area.

It all depends on the wood I'm cutting at the moment. Not all wood requires the same technique, because the characteristics of that particular piece of wood may require different tool handling. Making decisions about this, is highly dependent on your "spiritual" perceptions while in the act of turning, and your evaluation of those perceptions.

-----odie-----

 

[Brian Gustin]

Hmm if I understand the wing cut correctly, I think Ive been doing that already when I go to finish and smooth up the sides and transition.. I have no mentor or coach other than youtube so a lot of my skill is self taught (It is hard to see just how to hold a gouge correctly or set tool rest height just right in a video..) so I sort of discovered (to me anyway) a different cut where I will work from the center towards and through the transition by using a bit of the nose (very lightly, trying to just *kiss* the bevel) and flute at about 10:30 or 11:00 position from near center, and as I come into the transition, bringing the wing (ellsworth/irish grind) gently into contact with the side of the bowl - and rotating flute to nearly 9:00 (almost closed to the wall) while dropping the handle slightly to get more of a shear scrape as I clean up the wall of the bowl .. best as I can describe it.. seems to work for me.. no idea if that's a push or pull cut or even a scrape... but it gets results I am happy enough with.. because of the dimensions of my lathe and its positioning and location, I find it very hard to do a push cut down the wall with my usual 55 (-ish) degree ellsworth grind.. and not as smooth (I end up with bumps and ridges in the wall, I am guessing due to friction between tool rest and gouge making my motion jittery) with a 40 (-ish) degree traditional grind (not quite fingernail) on a second bowl gouge ... so I often use the 40 degree to get my bowl walls cut to thickness until I hit the transition, then the 55 degree to finish things up.. I still had a lot of sanding until I started trying the cut-then-scrape I described above.. (and surprisingly enough, or maybe it was just luck, I havent gotten any catches doing that.. which is what I had feared, based on what other turners on youtube say to NOT do....such as cut with the nose, and don't let the wings touch wood while making a cut at the front of the gouge, etc) I'd love to get some in person work with one of the experts.. maybe one day when I hit the lottery and can afford to travel, etc.. but til then, all I can do is just try different stuff and teach myself.. (as I'd assume many of the older experts did too.. else, who taught THEM? )

 

[William Rogers]

Did you read my OP, William? It's all about presentation of the cutting edge, and not the particular grind being used.

Yes Odie I did read it. And your title. “without a catch”. The point I am making is that the profile does influence the cut. What I feel is ideal is where the tool contacts the wood the least amount thereby producing the optimum cut. My belief is that you are likely to get a catch when you hit the wings that are straight and not on a radius. My belief is that this produced by a central pivot point where your wings will become straight. With the Vector grind you are on a radius with the contact point of the tool being small. So I guess I do disagree with your point of the grind itself not influencing the results. I do not have your experience, however I can produce the glass like finish and as said before not be on the edge of my seat worrying about a catch.

 

[odie]

Yes Odie I did read it. And your title. “without a catch”. The point I am making is that the profile does influence the cut. What I feel is ideal is where the tool contacts the wood the least amount thereby producing the optimum cut. My belief is that you are likely to get a catch when you hit the wings that are straight and not on a radius. My belief is that this produced by a central pivot point where your wings will become straight. With the Vector grind you are on a radius with the contact point of the tool being small. So I guess I do disagree with your point of the grind itself not influencing the results. I do not have your experience, however I can produce the glass like finish and as said before not be on the edge of my seat worrying about a catch.

What you don't understand here, William.......is the wings of a grind produced by the traditional method are not necessarily straight. There is just as much curvature as I desire it to be.....Well, up to a point, of course. When the angle of the bevel is greater, the possible curvature that can be had, is reduced, because the wings are shorter.......and, the opposite is also true. The more curvature you want to have, the more it will begin to curve inwardly toward the tip of the wings. As with any of the techniques that turners might use, it's all a matter of practice.

-----odie-----

 

[Rob Fridenberg]

Odie - I'm a new turner and I find your perspective on things to be very interesting. I'm not at a level where I always understand your descriptions of techniques (I need pics and videos), but I always am interested to read your thoughts!

Just curious as to what your background is??

 

[odie]

Odie - I'm a new turner and I find your perspective on things to be very interesting. I'm not at a level where I always understand your descriptions of techniques (I need pics and videos), but I always am interested to read your thoughts!

Just curious as to what your background is??

I'm not sure what you'd like to know, Rob....

Basically, I'm pretty much like many other turners here. I seek information, thoughts and experiences from others through this forum. Even though I've come to quite a few conclusions through my own experiences, I do listen to, and test theories others have, and sometimes my own thinking is altered by other's experiences......many times, not.....even though others are pretty solidly set in their ways, just like I am! I've never had a mentor, joined a club, or had any classes. The only "instruction" I've ever had was from several books, and early VHS tapes about turning. I predate common use of computers, and the "YouTube generation". My first turning experiences were in 1982, when I purchased a Shopsmith at a garage sale. Shortly thereafter, I bought a Northwood lathe with a reeves drive. In 1992, I purchased my Woodfast lathe from CSUSA, and probably have averaged 15-20 hours per week since then, until I retired several years ago from a production machinist job manufacturing medical instruments. I still do turn on the old Woodfast lathe, and I like it a lot, even though it's now an antique. I average about 30 hours per week turning since retirement at age 68. I am now 72 years old, raised a family, and am pretty much a hermit turner these days......well, except for constantly bugging you guys here on this AAW forum!

I'm not an instructor, mentor, or have something to sell you......I'm just someone who likes to turn bowls, like to hear about what others have to say about turning, and have been doing "my thing" for 39 years, now.

-----odie-----

 

[Glenn Lefley]

What you don't understand here, William.......is the wings of a grind produced by the traditional method are not necessarily straight. There is just as much curvature as I desire it to be.....Well, up to a point, of course. When the angle of the bevel is greater, the possible curvature that can be had, is reduced, because the wings are shorter.......and, the opposite is also true. The more curvature you want to have, the more it will begin to curve inwardly toward the tip of the wings. As with any of the techniques that turners might use, it's all a matter of practice.

-----odie-----

Picture of your tool grind would replace a thousand words. Or maybe a few pictures!

 

[odie]

Picture of your tool grind would replace a thousand words. Or maybe a few pictures!

Glenn........

This is an older photo of my traditional grind. It shows a curvature of the wing. The bevel and wings can be lengthened or shortened, depending on the needs. The curvature can be increased by grinding more on the tip of the wing and the nose.

I've been looking for a photo of my grinder set up to do the traditional grind, but not finding it.......it's just simply the v-arm, though.

-----odie-----

 

[William Rogers]

but to convey the thinking that the principles applied here are the same, because the very tip of the cutting edge is the same, no matter how the shape of the grind leading up to the cutting edge may differ.)

This is the statement that I disagree with. There are many different flute shapes. Methods of sharpening them also have a wide variety from jigs to hand sharpening. The very tip of the cutting edge can vary with flute design and is not the same in all instances. The method of sharpening them can also vary and change the cutting edge. I am sure it is definitely true for your method of sharpening and your tools. However I don’t feel it is true for me and my method of sharpening and tools. I think your statement on the grind is not consistent with my method of sharpening. Then you get into the best angles for the best finish.

 

[odie]

This is the statement that I disagree with. There are many different flute shapes. Methods of sharpening them also have a wide variety from jigs to hand sharpening. The very tip of the cutting edge can vary with flute design and is not the same in all instances. The method of sharpening them can also vary and change the cutting edge. I am sure it is definitely true for your method of sharpening and your tools. However I don’t feel it is true for me and my method of sharpening and tools. I think your statement on the grind is not consistent with my method of sharpening. Then you get into the best angles for the best finish.

William......the very tip of the cutting edge is what cuts. It's the same, no matter what the grind is. I'm beginning to think you have this confused with the shape along the length of the cutting edge.

-----odie-----

 

[William Rogers]

Good morning Odie, The tip will be different on a u gouge vs a v gouge. The tip does varies as it transitions to the wing. The angles can vary. It is the length of the cutting edge that is different and that can be a result of the grind. I’ll quit here. I definitly respect your expertise and experience. However I don’t use the same grind and feel my tip is different than yours. It is not one shoe fits all.

 

[odie]

Good morning Odie, The tip will be different on a u gouge vs a v gouge. The tip does varies as it transitions to the wing. The angles can vary. It is the length of the cutting edge that is different and that can be a result of the grind. I’ll quit here. I definitly respect your expertise and experience. However I don’t use the same grind and feel my tip is different than yours. It is not one shoe fits all.

Ok.....we'll leave it at that, William.

I think you know what you are saying, but it's based on a misinterpretation of what I said.

Keep on turning.

-----odie-----

 

[Donovan Bailey]

Odie, I'm surprised the 40/40 guys haven't already crawled down your flute by now...

 

[Dave Landers]

Odie, I see what you're saying (about cutting "near a catch"). I have been thinking something almost like that recently.

I use basically an Ellsworth/Irish grind with long wings. On the outside of a bowl, I have 2 go-to finishing cuts (plus sheer scraping sometimes). Both cuts are high-angle pull cuts (handle on my hip or even below that on my front pants pocket) and cut with the long side-wing of the gouge.

One rides the bevel on the side wings, and produces a high-angle sheer cut. Because of the angles involved, I don't think I get really any "anti-skating" support from the bevel. In this case, for me, the bevel is "steering" the cut (since the bevel always basically points towards the cut).

Another is with the flute rolled over - not bevel-riding, but not rolled all the way to a sheer scrape presentation - still a cut because of the way the edge is pointed into the approaching wood. A very light cut, so very tiny forces involved. I think I saw David Ellsworth do this, but I might be mis-remembering things. For me, this is more forgiving about the exact direction of the cut than the first one, so I can fine-tune the curve details more easily.

I've been watching myself make these cuts (especially the second) and thinking about how they violate that "sermon" we all have heard about riding the bevel for tool support. I don't actually think either of these are exactly "close to a catch" (as I use them), although if done wrong (too big a cut, handle too high, etc) they are risky.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

View attachment 38177
Glenn........

This is an older photo of my traditional grind. It shows a curvature of the wing. The bevel and wings can be lengthened or shortened, depending on the needs. The curvature can be increased by grinding more on the tip of the wing and the nose.

I've been looking for a photo of my grinder set up to do the traditional grind, but not finding it.......it's just simply the v-arm, though.

-----odie-----

Thanks Odie. So that’s almost just a roll on the grinder like a roughing gouge.

 

[Dave Landers]

the principles applied here are the same, because the very tip of the cutting edge is the same, no matter how the shape of the grind leading up to the cutting edge may differ

I happen to agree, but also see how this might be confusing.

I think what Odie is saying is that it is that one tiny place where the metal just touches the wood that determines the cut. It might be a bit of metal at the end of a gouge or a skew or a sharpened backhoe shovel.

The problem that we humans have is being able to make that tiny bit of metal touch the wood in a controlled, consistent, and useful way. And that's where the grind and flute and bevel and sharpening and handles and all the other accessories and "stuff" comes in. Because it's all that "stuff" that makes the connection between us and the cut. And that's also why we all get so passionate about our "stuff" - it is personal.

 

[Glenn Lefley]

When you guys are cutting how much of the tip is doing the actual cutting, if it’s more than a mm, then I think the tip design or profile will have a impact on cutting, if it’s less than a mm, a very small amount a guess it would not make a difference. @William Rogers
@odie

 

[John Torchick]

I have a video by Lyle Jamieson that has good information of presenting the gouge for inside and outside work.

 

[hockenbery]

I have a video by Lyle Jamieson that has good information of presenting the gouge for inside and outside work.

lyle has a “keep it simple“ style that is easy to follow.
anyone who can use the gouge half as well Lyle will be a fine turner.

 

[Timothy White]

Odie: would your opening statement be true if you had a gouge that had a continuous bevel for example the wing has the same bevel as the tip. What you described in your opening statement about “almost a catch” is what I learned as finding the sweet spot.

William Rogers and I use the JoHannes Michelsen grind which is a continuous bevel grind. It does not change bevel angle as you move from the tip and open onto the wing, getting a catch is very difficult with this grind.
With all of the other grinds I have used it is but a short step from the penthouse to the outhouse.

 

[Donna Banfield]

I have been using Hannes' grind since 2007. In 2007, that was creating the grind freehand. No platform, V-arm or jig. Your left hand/fingers were the 'jig', and your right hand/fingers controlled the roll of the tool. It took me 3 months to learn how to do that, and I was turning full-time, every day by that point. That grind had the tiniest of micro-bevels, that made it virtually impossible to catch. I could roll that tool completely on it's side, even all the way over with the flute at 9:00 o'clock, facing the inside of the bowl, and not get a catch. Catches happen when the cutting edge, unsupported, grabs more wood than the hand can control. Because that hand-held grind put a radius on the cutting edge, at any point there was never more than a tiny part of the cutting edge making contact with the bowl. Not just a micro-bevel, but a micro-section of the cutting edge making contact.

Then came the Vector. Hannes and I politely debated using that fixture (that's what he calls the devices the rest of the turning world call jigs) as being more aggressive, hence more likely to catch. I acquired one of his first Vector's (no color aluminum - no red/green) and was won over. I can still ride the inside of a bowl - just like many who do with their Ellsworth ground gouge - and not have the white knuckle experience I recalled from my earlier turning days when trying to achieve a fine shear finishing cut on the inside of a bowl. The Vector is a bit more aggressive compared to the free-hand sharpened gouge (which I still use on several gouges), but it gives the turner an easily repeatable grind after a couple of hours of setting up and practicing, compared to 3 months. All penthouse, no outhouse

 

[Timothy White]

Donna: Well said!

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I wouldn't know when is that Odie, I have not had a catch in decades, LOL I had a catch while removing the bowl gouge out of the bowl, turning while watching The Walking Dead on Netflix. Does that count? Thanks for starting a thread that has drawn interest Odie.

 

[Lennart Delin]

“Almost a catch is what I want!” To get the cleanest possible cut the edge needs to slice through the fibres with as long edge as possible, with as low edge angle as possible. Unfortunately, this also tends to promote catches. In fact, a very wide spindle roughing gouge with a 25 dgr edge with a radius just a little smaller than the bowl´s would probably produce the cleanest possible cut inside a bowl. It would however be extremely prone to catches. It would also limit the bowl shape to very shallow ones to allow the bevel to be able to glide along the surface. We therefore must find grinds and tool presentations that allow us to come close to this cutting geometry without getting catches.



What we prefer is personal and for me it has also varied over time, but for some years now I tend to prefer a parabolic flute and a moderately long Irish grind, though sometimes I reach for a 40/40 Stuart Batty grind. With the Irish grind, I seldom use the tip to cut. For cutting the bottom of deep bowls I like a special angled gouge with a fairly large radius, with the cutting point well below the fulcrum. It is almost impossible to get a catch with this. Instead of catching, it just swings away.

 

[odie]

Thanks Odie. So that’s almost just a roll on the grinder like a roughing gouge.

I guess it is, Glenn......with a little more finesse in creating the shape you want.

Dave, below, has a very good response here, especially the last few sentences:

I happen to agree, but also see how this might be confusing.

I think what Odie is saying is that it is that one tiny place where the metal just touches the wood that determines the cut. It might be a bit of metal at the end of a gouge or a skew or a sharpened backhoe shovel.

The problem that we humans have is being able to make that tiny bit of metal touch the wood in a controlled, consistent, and useful way. And that's where the grind and flute and bevel and sharpening and handles and all the other accessories and "stuff" comes in. Because it's all that "stuff" that makes the connection between us and the cut. And that's also why we all get so passionate about our "stuff" - it is personal.

That last sentence of Dave's post is an important statement, and relevant to much of the thinking, both mine and others who are participating in this thread. I'm not trying to show, or prove my traditional grind is better than anyone else's preferred grind......but, it is my preferred grind. I'm getting the kind of success with the traditional grind in recent years, that I've been dreaming about for a long time! .....with the strong consideration to the many other things contributing to that success......It is much, much more than what I can do with this one single component of the total effort.

At this point, I'm going to try to explain again what I mean by the "tip of the edge". I'm not talking about the tip as thought of as any measurement of length of the tip along it's total length, or the nose of the gouge, but think of it more as a cross section. This cross section is similar to a "V" in shape, and the cross section, no matter if a Hannes, Ellsworth, 40/40, or any other type of grind, it will resemble the "V".......and, that's why I say it really doesn't matter what the shape of the grind is behind that tip, it's all a matter of controlling what that tip does during the cut through a variety of contributing factors.

Wow......It's been a long day.....leave for a few hours, and this thread gets a lot of responses!.......I'm still absorbing some of these comments. If I have more comments of my own to contribute, it may take awhile. (I wouldn't be up at this time of the night, if it weren't for this darned prostate problem! )......I'm tired, and will be going back to bed shortly.......

-----odie-----

Another note: I have a habit of leaving the computer on continuously with active tabs. If it appears like I'm always actively monitoring the "going ons" here, it isn't necessarily the case. This AAW forum is one of my regular "hang outs" though!

 

[Brian Gustin]

Another note: I have a habit of leaving the computer on continuously with active tabs. If it appears like I'm always actively monitoring the "going ons" here, it isn't necessarily the case. This AAW forum is one of my regular "hang outs" though!

DITTO! I never turn my PC off.. learned habit from my I.T. and tech support days.. when you're on call, can't afford to spend the time waiting on boot-up...

 

[William Rogers]

It’s hard to let a sleeping dog lie. What drew my attention to this post was the “almost a catch” phrase. As the only way to achieve what I will call the “sand-less” cut. Well I don’t get catches as a result of my grind. And worry not I have no intention if using your traditional grind. I still strive to get that sand-less surface. I have gotten really close. I do things differently to achieve this goal. I grind the heal away and strive for a micro bevel. Before making the final cut(s) I wax the tool post to make sure the tool slides freely. Describing how much of the tip contacts the wood or any other detail is impossible for me. I can just feel when the cut is right. Making it totally through the cut with out some pause or adjustment of the tool is the challenge.

The goal is the same, but the paths are different.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, the high shear/slice angle does make for least resistance, and generally a cleaner cut. there are many ways to do that, and tools as well. I was turning dome doug fir last week, just on a whim, and the cleanest cut I could get, both inside and outside was with a half round gouge with a 70 degree bevel and almost no sweep. I had it rolled on the side. 40/40 didn't do it, 600 grit wheel didn't do it even with honing on my Tormek.... Every piece of wood is different. I tried the fluteless gouge, both with a burr, and honed with out a burr. Still not clean cuts.

That being said, I don't like that flutes up cut, but have been playing with it some after watching a turner in our club use it for the entry cut on a cube turned on the bias. Made my sphincters pucker, but it worked. That cut does seem to work well, but if you come off the bevel, you get a massive catch. That is why I mostly turn with my gouges on their sides.

Lennart, your custom tool makes me think of a spindle roughing gouge. They do work if you roll them on their sides, which gives a very high shear angle. Not sure I would attempt to use one on the inside of a bowl though due to the corners. A tiny bit of sweep makes that cut a lot safer. I would never use that tool with the flutes pointing up. The main thing that gets people in trouble with the SRG when turning bowls is that they try to do peeling cuts, which work fine on smaller diameter spindles, but on bowls, if you come off the bevel, you get a huge catch. Similar to what happens with the flutes up cut on the inside of a bowl.

Odie, that is a very interesting grind you show up above. I would expect that on the inside of a bowl, you would be cutting mostly with the wing and in more of a flutes up mode. That would yield a very high shear angle. Have to ponder it. I have never understood the 'traditional' grind. If I remember correctly, you turn it up side down, and grind a profile at 45 or so degrees, then sharpen the bevel by rolling the tool, but with no sweep. Looks like those wings might be 60 or so degrees rather than the 45 or so....

I need to investigate the Johannes grind some time. Need a hands on session with it. As near as I can tell, it is essentially a swept back grind and you relieve/grind away almost all of the primary bevel, leaving a tiny bevel to rub. Supposedly the idea is that the bevel is so small that if you do come off of it, there isn't enough of it to really dig in for those inside the bowl catches we all have experienced.... Since I don't use the swept back grind at all any more, I don't know if I will ever get to play with it. Maybe next time we are able to meet in person for the Symposium...

robo hippy

 

[Lennart Delin]

Lennart, your custom tool makes me think of a spindle roughing gouge. They do work if you roll them on their sides, which gives a very high shear angle. Not sure I would attempt to use one on the inside of a bowl though due to the corners. A tiny bit of sweep makes that cut a lot safer. I would never use that tool with the flutes pointing up. The main thing that gets people in trouble with the SRG when turning bowls is that they try to do peeling cuts, which work fine on smaller diameter spindles, but on bowls, if you come off the bevel, you get a huge catch. Similar to what happens with the flutes up cut on the inside of a bowl.


robo hippy

A picture showing the geometry better. As I wrote like a spindle roughing gouge, but with a shaft position that prevents it from catching. Used with the edge vertical.

 

[odie]

It’s hard to let a sleeping dog lie. What drew my attention to this post was the “almost a catch” phrase. As the only way to achieve what I will call the “sand-less” cut. Well I don’t get catches as a result of my grind. And worry not I have no intention if using your traditional grind. I still strive to get that sand-less surface. I have gotten really close. I do things differently to achieve this goal. I grind the heal away and strive for a micro bevel. Before making the final cut(s) I wax the tool post to make sure the tool slides freely. Describing how much of the tip contacts the wood or any other detail is impossible for me. I can just feel when the cut is right. Making it totally through the cut with out some pause or adjustment of the tool is the challenge.

The goal is the same, but the paths are different.

Where can I see some examples of your work, William?

Matter of fact, I'd like to see some examples from a few others here who posted in this thread. I just checked on a well known turner who posted here (as I often do)......and, there has been nothing new posted in the last couple years! We all have our own set of experiences, but I'd like to see some of the opinions expressed here represented by examples of their current works. As Glenn reminded me earlier.....a picture is worth a thousand words.

Click the links below to see examples of my current works.....

-----odie-----

 

[odie]

Odie, that is a very interesting grind you show up above. I would expect that on the inside of a bowl, you would be cutting mostly with the wing and in more of a flutes up mode. That would yield a very high shear angle. Have to ponder it. I have never understood the 'traditional' grind. If I remember correctly, you turn it up side down, and grind a profile at 45 or so degrees, then sharpen the bevel by rolling the tool, but with no sweep. Looks like those wings might be 60 or so degrees rather than the 45 or so....

Howdy, Robo.....

Yes, on the interior side walls, the cut is mostly on the wing. It progresses to the nose as it transitions (and rotates), and back to the wing as it flattens out in the bottom of the interior. (That is a general statement, and not necessarily the same with each bowl shape, grain patterns and species.)

You can turn it upside down for the initial shaping, if it's needed......thereafter, all you have to do is match the current bevel to your grind wheel. At that point, it's very easy to lengthen, or shorten the bevel, depending on what you require. Lengthening the bevel will lengthen the wing. Shaping the wing is all a matter of grinding either more or less on nose and wings, per your needs.

-----odie-----

 

[William Rogers]

@odie

The most decent is a sassafras bowl in my media. If you look you can see I like to turn a variety of things. I have turned several more, gave them away. I have had the Vector grind jig for a little over a year, but had medical time off. Open heart surgery in September. However I was doing my cardiac rehab and December 1 and I had what I call an event. They did two rounds of CPR. I was at the hospital when this happened I right place. I made several bowls and a bunch of ornaments, lidded boxes, wine stoppers, etc.. just about everything I made (after Decemcer 1) I took in and gave to the nurses and staff. Working on getting that glass like finish is my next progression. I do still have a lot to learn.

 

[odie]

@odie

The most decent is a sassafras bowl in my media. If you look you can see I like to turn a variety of things. I have turned several more, gave them away. I have had the Vector grind jig for a little over a year, but had medical time off. Open heart surgery in September. However I was doing my cardiac rehab and December 1 and I had what I call an event. They did two rounds of CPR. I was at the hospital when this happened I right place. I made several bowls and a bunch of ornaments, lidded boxes, wine stoppers, etc.. just about everything I made (after Decemcer 1) I took in and gave to the nurses and staff. Working on getting that glass like finish is my next progression. I do still have a lot to learn.

I ran a search for you in the members gallery, and it came up negative......got a link?

-----odie-----

 

[William Rogers]

@odie , click my picture and when that opens click my small picture. Should see a tab “media”.