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Bowl gouge with V-shaped flute...just looks evil!

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One of the 4 bowl gouges I have, which came in one of those beginner sets years ago, has a V-shaped flute, and the darned thing just looks dangerous to me. What can you tell me about the usefulness (or not) of this type of bowl gouge, when it should or shouldn't be used? I'm treading water on the bowls right now (watch for another "help me" thread later), but though I could get some info on this topic anyway. Thanks!
 

hockenbery

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I sort of with you in not liking the vee flutes.
Some people love them. The really deep or pointy vees can be scary.

I use the Ellsworth grind on my gouges and like the parabolic flutes.
These are wider and more rounded at the bottom of the flute and more open at the top than the vees.
The Henry Taylor and the Jamieson are two flutes I really like.
I use the leading edge of the wing a lot and these flute make a nice one with the Ellsworth grind.

The vee gouges don't take the Ellsworth grind well.
Too pointy and the sweet spot is too narrow.
Difficult to do some of the shear and pull cuts with the vee tools.

Al
 
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type of appropriate grind?

I sort of with you in not liking the vee flutes.
Some people love them. The really deep or pointy vees can be scary.

I use the Ellsworth grind on my gouges and like the parabolic flutes.
These are wider and more rounded at the bottom of the flute and more open at the top than the vees.
The Henry Taylor and the Jamieson are two flutes I really like.
I use the leading edge of the wing a lot and these flute make a nice one with the Ellsworth grind.

The vee gouges don't take the Ellsworth grind well.
Too pointy and the sweet spot is too narrow.
Difficult to do some of the shear and pull cuts with the vee tools.

Al
Yep, this one has wings, and they don't look like they belong there. So what guru's name is attached to Vee gouges, so I can Google it;) This has been a rough week for me and bowl gouges.:p
 

hockenbery

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Yep, this one has wings, and they don't look like they belong there. So what guru's name is attached to Vee gouges, so I can Google it;) This has been a rough week for me and bowl gouges.:p

The Gerry Gleasner gouges were vee shaped and quite popular a while ago.
I have a Thompson vee and a lot of folks are using his vee gouge.

John Jordan is making a vee gouge and is the best known "guru" I can think of who uses the vee.
Below is a vee gouge I have.
Vees work well with longer wings than I use too.
Needs sharpening... :)
 

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john lucas

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I use a Thompson V gouge all the time. It's my favorite tool. You have to grind the tip a little more when you sharpen or it gets really pointy. I like the way it cuts on a push push cut because the wings are doing a lot of the wood removal. On Pull cuts you have a longer wing so if you leave the handle real low it's very save and leaves a very clean cut. It's all in the sharpening to make it really useful tool. Most people who get one tend to sharpen the wings too hard so the nose gets really narrow and pointy. Just be light on the wings and watch the nose as grind and try to make it more rounded and it will be handy tool.
In this video I am using that tool. Hopefully you can pick up some pointers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd988yk6lSE
 

Bill Boehme

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I have a Jerry Glaser bowl gouge and the V really is a V ... scary looking like Al says. The trouble with that really narrow V is that the wings are more or less forced to be thin. Looks like it is just begging to catch. I have one of the very early Thompson bowl gouges and it seems to me that the V was narrower back then than now. I use it on a regular basis, but I favor the flutes that are a bit wider and not as sharp at the bottom of the V.
 
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The Gerry Gleasner gouges were vee shaped and quite popular a while ago.
I have a Thompson vee and a lot of folks are using his vee gouge.

John Jordan is making a vee gouge and is the best known "guru" I can think of who uses the vee.
Below is a vee gouge I have.
Vees work well with longer wings than I use too.
Needs sharpening... :)

I should have clarified -- was thinking about what sharpening guru I could look up, LOL. But I know Thompson puts out instructions, right? I will compare the sharpening job on mine (angles and such) with your pics. The nose on mine (looking straight on from the front) looks way too pointed. When I tried to re-grind it, I screwed up the edges (one went concave on me, the other barely straight), so will have to start all over again anyways.
 
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I use a Thompson V gouge all the time. It's my favorite tool. You have to grind the tip a little more when you sharpen or it gets really pointy. I like the way it cuts on a push push cut because the wings are doing a lot of the wood removal. On Pull cuts you have a longer wing so if you leave the handle real low it's very save and leaves a very clean cut. It's all in the sharpening to make it really useful tool. Most people who get one tend to sharpen the wings too hard so the nose gets really narrow and pointy. Just be light on the wings and watch the nose as grind and try to make it more rounded and it will be handy tool.
In this video I am using that tool. Hopefully you can pick up some pointers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd988yk6lSE

I'll look at that video tonight. Don't know how I missed it -- I checked your channel yesterday (pulling hair out :rolleyes:) and didn't see it, so am glad you posted it. I'm sure it will give me more understanding.
 
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One point on V gouges is that they are not all created equal. I have a Pinnacle and is is a narrow v. When used on wet white oak it clogs very badly and then has to be scraped out. The Thompson is wider and will not clog like this.

I can imagine how bad that could be. I checked the bevel on mine tonight, and it's less than 45, seems like it should be 45 minimum. Forgot to take a picture.
 

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I don't have much use for a V shaped flute on gouges, but I have a couple of them that are sharpened with a very steep angle, like the Mike Mahoney bottom feeder gouge. I don't think this flute shape is what Mahoney uses for his, but it seems to work ok for the same purpose as he does. I use mine in the bottoms of the interior, with a pull cut, in the area between the transition to the center. It's not better than normal shaped flutes for this purpose, but it works as well as the latter......

I don't plan to buy any more V shaped flutes on gouges.

Mike Mahoney has some videos on YouTube if you want to search his name there. In my opinion, his videos are worth seeing.......

ko
 

john lucas

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Bill I find the opposite. ON my V gouge when you grind the wings the actual cutting angle is greater than when I grind the wings on my U shaped gouges. I use this to my advantage in that the V shaped gouge wings hold an edge longer on heavy pull cuts. I use the wings on my U shaped bowl gouges for problems woods using light cuts with that sharper angle. I suppose it depends a lot on the interior flute shape and how you roll the tool when you make the grind. Certain U shaped gouges with more of a role grind toward the lip of the U will leave a more blunt sharpening angle. I have several U shaped gouges of different brands and using the Wolverine jig in more or less the traditional way as Doug Thompson does I get thinner or more acute sharpening angles on the wings than my Thompson V.
 
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One point on V gouges is that they are not all created equal. I have a Pinnacle and is is a narrow v. When used on wet white oak it clogs very badly and then has to be scraped out. The Thompson is wider and will not clog like this.

Amen. I had one gouge with a narrow V flute (made by a less than stellar brand). I used it a few times and put it aside -- almost anything would clog it. Several years later I finally gave it away -- given my opinion of that particular gouge, I didn't think I should make anyone pay for it. I prefer more open/rounded flutes.
 
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One point on V gouges is that they are not all created equal. I have a Pinnacle and is is a narrow v. When used on wet white oak it clogs very badly and then has to be scraped out. The Thompson is wider and will not clog like this.

+1 My Pinnacle clogs terribly. I like my Thompson.
 

Bill Boehme

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Bill I find the opposite. ON my V gouge when you grind the wings the actual cutting angle is greater than when I grind the wings on my U shaped gouges. I use this to my advantage in that the V shaped gouge wings hold an edge longer on heavy pull cuts. I use the wings on my U shaped bowl gouges for problems woods using light cuts with that sharper angle. I suppose it depends a lot on the interior flute shape and how you roll the tool when you make the grind. Certain U shaped gouges with more of a role grind toward the lip of the U will leave a more blunt sharpening angle. I have several U shaped gouges of different brands and using the Wolverine jig in more or less the traditional way as Doug Thompson does I get thinner or more acute sharpening angles on the wings than my Thompson V.

I agree that the way you grind a tool makes a big difference in the final result. However, because there is so much more metal on the sides of a Glaser gouge due to the narrow V, if i were to use the same jig settings as I would with my other gouges, the resulting wing would have an almost skew-like appearance ... And that is how the commemorative AAW Glaser bowl gouge came to me ... very sharp and thin wings. Well, it doesn't really matter because it was only used once and now is just a show piece.
 
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There are pretty big differences in V gouges. I have seen two (one Jet, and can't remember the other) where the V was so pointy and deep that the tool was only good for playing mumbly peg. The Glaser V is too deep as well, for my tastes. Doug's V is very open. I figure that the V is probably suited for working with the wings only, and not the nose at all since it is so small, so drop handle style. I prefer a more open flute in particular since I hold my handles more level. The ones I use the most??? Hard to say, but I prefer the 45/45 grind (bevel/sweep), and like Doug's U flute, but also Lyle's parabolic flute, and Doug's V flute, and a couple of others.

robo hippy
 
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Sweep?

There are pretty big differences in V gouges. I have seen two (one Jet, and can't remember the other) where the V was so pointy and deep that the tool was only good for playing mumbly peg. The Glaser V is too deep as well, for my tastes. Doug's V is very open. I figure that the V is probably suited for working with the wings only, and not the nose at all since it is so small, so drop handle style. I prefer a more open flute in particular since I hold my handles more level. The ones I use the most??? Hard to say, but I prefer the 45/45 grind (bevel/sweep), and like Doug's U flute, but also Lyle's parabolic flute, and Doug's V flute, and a couple of others.

robo hippy

Hope I know what you mean by "sweep" -- the angle between the axis of the tool and a line drawn down the top edge of where it's ground (the winged part)? Of all the sharpening articles I've read, I can only remember one that even referenced that angle, and he (Eric Lofstrom) simply said the angle between the bevel and that upper edge should be less than 90. Ach, so hard to describe, will take a picture:
BowlGouge Angles.jpg
I'd love to know more about the variations of that angle, the length of the wings, and such, since I don't plan to buy one particular guru's gouge and stick with it.:) Oh, the Schweitzer gouge I have looks like a U, not a V -- which is a good thing for now!
 

john lucas

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That angle doesn't matter. Just get the shape close and play with it and if you like it keep it. I have gouges where the "wing" is quite long and some where that wing is quite short. They serve different needs for my turning style but the actual angle doesn't matter. What he shows in the picture is a somewhat typical angle that many have but certainly isn't critical.
 
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If you're having a problem with control put a 60 degree bevel on the nose of the gouge. 45 degree is a bit more aggressive and harder to control. Better to us 45 degree once you're comfortable with gouges.

The V nose is a nice tool. The little more pointy tip can get you in tight areas. Places like working the tenon or recess. They can clog by hogging off heavy amounts of material or if presentation is off a bit. Some species of wood will clog them no matter what you do. I learned on a glaser steep V so all the others seem more parabolic after using the Glaser.

Are you German? I thought but I was the only one who said ach. I am the last of our family of pure bred German. My ancestors came here in around 1870 and a few branches kept marrying other Germans. They all said ach.
 
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Jamie,
Sweep refers, at least to me, how far down the sides of the tool the cutting edge goes. So, a spindle roughing gouge has no sweep, the 40/40 that Stuart Batty uses has a 40 degree bevel, and you sweep to the side to a 40 degree angle to the face of the wheel (I find the 40/40 too pointy for me, and prefer the 45/45). The Irish/O'Donnel/Ellsworth swept back grind has a lot of sweep. Most of my scrapers are swept back as well. Lots of sweep is excellent for shear scraping on the outside of a bowl.

robo hippy
 
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Jamie,
Sweep refers, at least to me, how far down the sides of the tool the cutting edge goes. So, a spindle roughing gouge has no sweep, the 40/40 that Stuart Batty uses has a 40 degree bevel, and you sweep to the side to a 40 degree angle to the face of the wheel (I find the 40/40 too pointy for me, and prefer the 45/45). The Irish/O'Donnel/Ellsworth swept back grind has a lot of sweep. Most of my scrapers are swept back as well. Lots of sweep is excellent for shear scraping on the outside of a bowl.

robo hippy

Thanks, that gives me a good mental image. I know this isn't something that I'd measure, just wanting to understand the lingo when people are discussing different grinding arrangements.
 
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[Snip]
Are you German? I thought but I was the only one who said ach. I am the last of our family of pure bred German. My ancestors came here in around 1870 and a few branches kept marrying other Germans. They all said ach.
I'm European mish-mash, mostly English I suspect. Have a few Swedish words in vocabulary from years working with a Swede, and pick up a German word or two from wherever. I love listening to other languages, but have almost zero ability to be effectively bi-lingual. Just enough to get my college degree!
 

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Rather than talking about U's and V's and degrees of U-ness and V-ness, here is a shot of my Glaser gouge flute. Rather than calling it a V maybe a very narrow U with very vertical sides is more accurate. The flute is very narrow and can easily clog even with dry wood. The wings are very thin ... probably moe acute than the average skew chisel.

image.jpg
 
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My preference for naming them is 'open' and 'closed' flutes. That is a term used to refer to how the flute is aimed or tilted, which makes no sense to me at all. I consider the continental style flutes to be 'open', and the type like the Glaser to be more closed. U flutes, V flutes, and Parabolic flutes oh my!

robo hippy
 
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