Brass Threaded Inserts source UPDATE!!!

[Emiliano Achaval]

I have been searching online for a source of brass threaded inserts to convert them into urn threads. Sadly, my friend Rick Brantley passed away. I do not think his son will be picking up the business. My favorite size is 3.5 in. I do not even know what I'm looking for. Brass threaded plumbing couplers? Rick told me it wasn't that hard to do it. He did it on his lathe, with turning tools. Found some on a plumbing site, but a 4 in threaded brass something, I think for a bathtub is $97. I'm planning on wandering through the aisles of Lowe's and Home Depot. Any insight will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Clifton C]

I internet searched for "Brass closet spud", just to find what I thought I was looking for, then went to a plumbing supply house to purchase.
I think mine are 2 inch or 2.5, not sure about a 3.5. Easy to make a mandrel to part off the threads you need.
Here is one of our threads.

Pet Urn

My neighbor saw my recent attempts at hollow forms and has asked me to make some pet urns for one of her relatives. I've heard of people making them but have no idea if there is anything special or unique to consider. If I turn it green how do I fit a lid on a non round opening that will seal...

www.aawforum.org

Here is the make your own version for brass inserts from an earlier thread.


Here is a image of a closet spud, I just use part of the threads and the hex nut...
View attachment 35289

 

[Lou Jacobs]

I wonder if you could make something like this work? From a marine supplier.

Departments

shop.hamiltonmarine.com

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

What happened to the thread chasing?
The main points that I can see against metal or plastic inserts is the fact that wood is hydroscopic meaning that it is continually equalizing with it's environment as in expanding and contracting with the seasons or the difference between tropical humidity and an airconditioned interior. The problem gets worse as the diameter increases. The best method IMHO is a coarse thread with sloppy tolerances cut directly into the wood and if necessary reinforced with CA.

 

[stu senator]

The main points that I can see against metal or plastic inserts is the fact that wood is hydroscopic meaning that it is continually equalizing with it's environment as in expanding and contracting with the seasons or the difference between tropical humidity and an airconditioned interior. The problem gets worse as the diameter increases

A small gap of .010 to .015 left between the metal insert and the wood and filled with a flexible adhesive will alow for different expansion rates due to humidity or temperature.

Stu

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

A small gap of .010 to .015 left between the metal insert and the wood and filled with a flexible adhesive will alow for different expansion rates due to humidity or temperature.

Stu

15 thou is not much and the success rate will be dependent on many factors such as when installed at a high or low humidity point, the radial and tangential shrinkage of the wood used, the diameter as in the bigger it gets the more likely to have a problem, the grain orientation which may cause the piece to go oval Etc.
I do understand that there are many turners who want the metal/plastic solution to work but IMHO it seems like a poor solution but then I have gotten by without any kind of inserts for close to 30 years.

 

[stu senator]

15 thou is not much and the success rate will be dependent on many factors such as when installed at a high or low humidity point, the radial and tangential shrinkage of the wood used, the diameter as in the bigger it gets the more likely to have a problem, the grain orientation which may cause the piece to go oval Etc.
I do understand that there are many turners who want the metal/plastic solution to work but IMHO it seems like a poor solution but then I have gotten by without any kind of inserts for close to 30 years.

Actually I built a device of ceramic and aluminum rings about 1 meter in diameter and a .010" gap that took a temperature spread of over 50 deg F with no failure. So temperature will be no problem.

As this is for an urn it most likely will be end grain so there will be no ovality. For this type of item the wood should be fairly dry to start. How much the humidity of the shop and the final resting location is the variability.

How much does wood swell or shrink with changing humidity I do not know but I have made mirrors of 4" and greater diameter and used a flexible adhesive (silicon rubber) and a gap with no problem in a humid bath that is both open to the outside and A/C depending on the season. This is glass on face grain.

If you want to use an insert this is a viable solution. Wood on wood will have problems in changing humidity.

Stu

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

What happened to the thread chasing?
The main points that I can see against metal or plastic inserts is the fact that wood is hydroscopic meaning that it is continually equalizing with it's environment as in expanding and contracting with the seasons or the difference between tropical humidity and an airconditioned interior. The problem gets worse as the diameter increases. The best method IMHO is a coarse thread with sloppy tolerances cut directly into the wood and if necessary reinforced with CA.

I posted this on the WOW site. This answers why I do not chase threads on my urns.
Sadly, Rick Brantley passed away. We were in contact till his last days. He had time to teach his son how to do it. But I have not heard from him. Rick was diagnosed with cancer. It was very fast, under 3 months and he left us. Very sad. The reason I started using his brass inserts is that I like my urn opening wide. A minimum of 4 inches. I used one of my urns for the first time a few years ago. I had trouble pouring my Grandma's ashes into the small hand chased threads lid. This was in Argentina. I do not know if in the USA they give you clean ashes. I had some fairly big pieces of bones. Just horrible. That day I decide to use big openings. How in the world can you pour ashes through a 2 inch or smaller opening? A famous turner told me, tell them to use a funnel! Then what? Ashes get stuck in the funnel. Also, I recommend leaving ashes in a plastic bag. With the 3,5 or 4 in opening is easy to slip in the bag with the ashes. I do not have pieces big enough of dense woods to make big openings with hand chased threads, and bigger openings I would do maybe 12 tpi. Coarser threads than my boxes. I do not chase threads with soft woods, I do not like to use CA I'm going to try buying the brass inserts and cutting them on my lathe. Rick said it wasn't that hard. Stay tuned!
Edit

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I internet searched for "Brass closet spud", just to find what I thought I was looking for, then went to a plumbing supply house to purchase.
I think mine are 2 inch or 2.5, not sure about a 3.5. Easy to make a mandrel to part off the threads you need.
Here is one of our threads.

Pet Urn

My neighbor saw my recent attempts at hollow forms and has asked me to make some pet urns for one of her relatives. I've heard of people making them but have no idea if there is anything special or unique to consider. If I turn it green how do I fit a lid on a non round opening that will seal...

www.aawforum.org

Thank you for looking into it.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

A small gap of .010 to .015 left between the metal insert and the wood and filled with a flexible adhesive will alow for different expansion rates due to humidity or temperature.

Stu

There is a reason why I do not make a tight fit, you have to have some play so there is room for the epoxy to be able to get in between and bond. I had some failures when I made the brass super tight, there was no room for the epoxy to get in. That gives you room for any wood movement too.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

15 thou is not much and the success rate will be dependent on many factors such as when installed at a high or low humidity point, the radial and tangential shrinkage of the wood used, the diameter as in the bigger it gets the more likely to have a problem, the grain orientation which may cause the piece to go oval Etc.
I do understand that there are many turners who want the metal/plastic solution to work but IMHO it seems like a poor solution but then I have gotten by without any kind of inserts for close to 30 years.

I do not wish for any of my customers to go through what I went thru. The size of the opening of your urn, the one pictured here, is a nightmare in the making. I made several with hand chased threads inserts, they look great, more like something for the art gallery that a practical urn that grieving family members will try to use. I'm talking from personal experience, and one customer actually emailed me to tell me something similar. He said the next urn I want an opening big enough to shove the entire bag of ashes. That where I got my idea! Don, I'm interested in hearing your opinion on the matter. Big and practical, or small and artsie?

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

I do not wish for any of my customers to go through what I went thru. The size of the opening of your urn, the one pictured here, is a nightmare in the making. I made several with hand chased threads inserts, they look great, more like something for the art gallery that a practical urn that grieving family members will try to use. I'm talking from personal experience, and one customer actually emailed me to tell me something similar. He said the next urn I want an opening big enough to shove the entire bag of ashes. That where I got my idea! Don, I'm interested in hearing your opinion on the matter. Big and practical, or small and artsie?

Many years ago I went around to several local mortuaries to try to sell urns and "Big and practical" was/is preferred so that is how I go. The "small and artsie?" has never seemed to me to be anything but a way to hide a poor surface on the inside of the vessel and to me they appear out of proportion.
This urn has a 4 1/2" opening so yes you could stuff the hole bag in there. Note to Stu in an urn of this style turned away from the pith it can go oval just like a side grain bowl and that is why, even though it sat for about a year before final turning and threading, sloppy is good.

 

[Don Rabchenuk]

You could also look at PVC pipe couplings.

 

[Doug Freeman]

You could also look at PVC pipe couplings.

Do a search for 4” ABS pipe fittings, available at the box stores. ABS is black (vs pvc white) which I suspect will work better color wise. ~$15-$20 for a M/F set.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Ok I am at a loss to see why an urn needs an opening smaller than the diameter of the full piece. Think of it as a box. In a box the lid is the diameter of the piece. So a box with threaded lid could also be called a urn and much simpler to make and no fittings to buy.

 

[Michael Nathal]

For that matter, why does it need to be threaded at all? Why not just epoxy the lid in place? Do people really want to open up the urn and look at the ashes?

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

For that matter, why does it need to be threaded at all? Why not just epoxy the lid in place? Do people really want to open up the urn and look at the ashes?

You are right but some of us woodturners learned how to thread and we couldn't help but do it.
I have had morticians ask if it was ok to seal the threads, which is easy enough to do with with just about any kind of glue, and my answer was ask the family.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

You could also look at PVC pipe couplings.

Brass looks classy. My urns start at $800 I could not bring myself to use PVC on someones final resting place.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

For that matter, why does it need to be threaded at all? Why not just epoxy the lid in place? Do people really want to open up the urn and look at the ashes?

Here in Hawaii, people buy the urn, they then spread the ashes at several locations. As many as 5 one family told me, included the ocean, from a boat. Each family member might take a pinch, I sell them keep sake urns, basically small threaded boxes. So, yes, they open the urn a lot of times.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Do a search for 4” ABS pipe fittings, available at the box stores. ABS is black (vs pvc white) which I suspect will work better color wise. ~$15-$20 for a M/F set.

How do I explain the customer that the threads are what you basically use in plumbing, for the sewage line? Can’t use plastic. I thought about it a few years ago.

 

[Dave Fritz]

Seems the first question is what is the ultimate plan for the urn, Burial in a cemetery or keep as a mantle piece? So many different traditions and notions it would be best to ask the family what they plan on doing. I've seen them placed in the ground in a cemetery and kept as a mantle piece. Some even make serveral urns for family, jewelery https://www.amazon.com/cremation-jewelry/s?k=cremation+jewelry and this list goes on.

I too knew Rich and have visited in his shop in Reedsburg and have some of his inserts. I didn't ask at the time where he got them but I would think if you took his fittings to a plumbing supply house they'd come close to showing you what they are. I know Rich had a small metal lathe he worked with.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

Seems the first question is what is the ultimate plan for the urn, Burial in a cemetery or keep as a mantle piece? So many different traditions and notions it would be best to ask the family what they plan on doing. I've seen them placed in the ground in a cemetery and kept as a mantle piece. Some even make serveral urns for family, jewelery https://www.amazon.com/cremation-jewelry/s?k=cremation+jewelry and this list goes on.

I too knew Rich and have visited in his shop in Reedsburg and have some of his inserts. I didn't ask at the time where he got them but I would think if you took his fittings to a plumbing supply house they'd come close to showing you what they are. I know Rich had a small metal lathe he worked with.

If the guy had a metal lathe why not fit the cross slide with a small router motor and make an adapter for the headstock to mount a woodturning scroll chuck and you then have a far superior setup to cut threads directly in your turnings.

 

[Don Wattenhofer]

How do I explain the customer that the threads are what you basically use in plumbing, for the sewage line? Can’t use plastic. I thought about it a few years ago.

Before plastic plumbing fittings there were brass plumbing fittings.

 

[Mark Halleran]

This may have been covered but why not approach a machinist and ask him to batch out a bunch. Other than that I don't know if there is an easy solution. I just purchased several from Lee Valley but they are no where near the diameter you are looking for.

 

[Doug Freeman]

How do I explain the customer that the threads are what you basically use in plumbing, for the sewage line? Can’t use plastic. I thought about it a few years ago.

4” brass fittings. They are still for plumbing, but are brass. Probably have to increase your price. Making them yourself is worth it depending on the price of the brass.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

 

[Mark Halleran]

4” brass fittings. They are still for plumbing, but are brass. Probably have to increase your price. Making them yourself is worth it depending on the price of the brass.

McMaster-Carr

McMaster-Carr is the complete source for your plant with over 595,000 products. 98% of products ordered ship from stock and deliver same or next day.

www.mcmaster.com

Around here you can usually find a machine shop with some offcuts or short pieces they can't make their parts out of and they usually let it go for scrap price maybe a little more.

 

[Tom Lucas]

What about the brass tins with the coarse "jar" threads? I was think the whole lid could be epoxied in place. But on the other side, how would one remove the bottom of the box, leaving the male threads, and have it look nice? Perhaps they could be removed with a laser. This would be the cheap way to go. But nice solid brass would be better. I think that would best be done by a machinist in large batches. Business opportunity for someone, I think.

 

[hockenbery]

pewter is easy to cast. You can chase threads in it.
it’s a new technology to tackle. Short learning curve and fun.

for a one of you can melt pewter in a tin can using a torch. 450-600 degrees.
molten pewter does not scorch wood. It solidifies in seconds stays too hot to touch for a long time.
rule number 1 - hot metal looks like cold metal.
pewter does not bond to wood - casting it into a dovetailed groove keeps it in place. glue will hold it in place too.

saw Lee Carter do a demo with a torch and cast iron ladle. He pressed a Piece Of jewelry into casting sand.
removed it, poured pewter in and got a nice copy.

bondo can be used to make reusable casts. You could make molds from jars and cast the threaded parts
then you wouldn’t have to chase threads.

1 lb casting ingots are about $25 should be enough for 3 urns maybe 4.

I've done a little pewter casting after seeing a Keith Larret demo.
keith uses a lead melting pot. I bought one for about $50.
here is a tutorial Keith has for a cast rim.

End Grain Vessel with Pewter Rim

The blank selected should be approximately 4” x 4” x 6”. The grain should be orientated such that it runs parallel to the lathe. It is important that the blank is dry. Mount the blank between cen…

syzygywoodworks.com

I cast a band around a gavel head using cereal box cardboard wrapped around the top of a wide recess.
made a little chute to pour the pewter through.

i see pewter pewas in you future.

 

[john lucas]

I guess my brain isnt working. I have filled grooves with epoxy and cut threads I to it. Youbcan chase threads as well. You can color.the epoxy. I like black for threaded pieces but sometimes the clear.takes on the color of the wood and looks very nice.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

pewter is easy to cast. You can chase threads in it.
it’s a new technology to tackle. Short learning curve and fun.

for a one of you can melt pewter in a tin can using a torch. 450-600 degrees.
molten pewter does not scorch wood. It solidifies in seconds stays too hot to touch for a long time.
rule number 1 - hot metal looks like cold metal.
pewter does not bond to wood - casting it into a dovetailed groove keeps it in place. glue will hold it in place too.

saw Lee Carter do a demo with a torch and cast iron ladle. He pressed a Piece Of jewelry into casting sand.
removed it, poured pewter in and got a nice copy.

bondo can be used to make reusable casts. You could make molds from jars and cast the threaded parts
then you wouldn’t have to chase threads.

1 lb casting ingots are about $25 should be enough for 3 urns maybe 4.

I've done a little pewter casting after seeing a Keith Larret demo.
keith uses a lead melting pot. I bought one for about $50.
here is a tutorial Keith has for a cast rim.

End Grain Vessel with Pewter Rim

The blank selected should be approximately 4” x 4” x 6”. The grain should be orientated such that it runs parallel to the lathe. It is important that the blank is dry. Mount the blank between cen…

syzygywoodworks.com

I cast a band around a gavel head using cereal box cardboard wrapped around the top of a wide recess.
made a little chute to pour the pewter through.

i see pewter pewas in you future.

Thank you Al. Great response. This is definitely an option. But, I refuse to give up! I have not yet walked the aisles of Home Depot. I thought it was going to be easier to find the same source than Rick. I usually can find anything with Google. Not this time! Since I used to do my own fishing leads, I have everything to melt metal, outside. You have lighted up a big spark of interest. I can make a Bondo mold of one expensive brass thread set, then pour pewter. Put it in place, then chase threads. I like it. It is worth mentioning that I found some brass threaded sets. But, they are asking as much as $120. I'm Ok paying as much as $40.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I guess my brain isnt working. I have filled grooves with epoxy and cut threads I to it. Youbcan chase threads as well. You can color.the epoxy. I like black for threaded pieces but sometimes the clear.takes on the color of the wood and looks very nice.

Not sure if I mentioned it above, just in case here it goes again. I do not like your idea. I like brass because no matter how much the Koa urn will warp in Arizona or Utah, you can still open it and close it. We had a demo where a guy inlay putty in grooves, then chased threads. For small boxes, it's a great idea.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Also, what would happen if there is a bot of warpage and or movement? Will the putty crack? Fall off? All of the above. Remember, I want my opening 4 inches wide...

 

[Jeff Jackson]

I posted this on the WOW site. This answers why I do not chase threads on my urns.
Sadly, Rick Brantley passed away. We were in contact till his last days. He had time to teach his son how to do it. But I have not heard from him. Rick was diagnosed with cancer. It was very fast, under 3 months and he left us. Very sad. The reason I started using his brass inserts is that I like my urn opening wide. A minimum of 4 inches. I used one of my urns for the first time a few years ago. I had trouble pouring my Grandma's ashes into the small hand chased threads lid. This was in Argentina. I do not know if in the USA they give you clean ashes. I had some fairly big pieces of bones. Just horrible. That day I decide to use big openings. How in the world can you pour ashes through a 2 inch or smaller opening? A famous turner told me, tell them to use a funnel! Then what? Ashes get stuck in the funnel. Also, I recommend leaving ashes in a plastic bag. With the 3,5 or 4 in opening is easy to slip in the bag with the ashes. I do not have pieces big enough of dense woods to make big openings with hand chased threads, and bigger openings I would do maybe 12 tpi. Coarser threads than my boxes. I do not chase threads with soft woods, I do not like to use CA I'm going to try buying the brass inserts and cutting them on my lathe. Rick said it wasn't that hard. Stay tuned!
Edit

It is standard practice now in the US to grind up the remaining ashes to a fine powder, and a magnet is used to remove any metal that was missed before.

 

[Chris Lawrence]

I have not yet walked the aisles of Home Depot.

Not sure your going to find what your looking for at home depot. They have a limited plumbing section geared more towards home owners. Do you have a dedicated plumbing supply near you that is geared more towards professionals? The people working the counter at one of these places should be very knowledgeable and might know exactly what you need.

 

[R Henrickson]

Not sure your going to find what your looking for at home depot. They have a limited plumbing section geared more towards home owners. Do you have a dedicated plumbing supply near you that is geared more towards professionals? The people working the counter at one of these places should be very knowledgeable and might know exactly what you need.

I would second this. Home Depot stocks for the lower price versions of things. Brass is not. Definitely go to a dedicated plumbing supply store.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Brass is a fairly soft metal you could try using a threading jig and slowly cut the threads to the depth you need using several pieces of brass.
Short scrap pieces "drops" of brass can be purchased at a discount compared to longer pieces of brass round stock.
You might also check copper commercial plumbing fittings, they make cleanouts with threaded plugs in standard pipe sizes, when you get into
the larger sized fittings they would cast them out of brass which would then be machined to fit copper piping. The older kitchen sink drains
were made of brass and had a 3-1/2" threaded nuts and the "basket" had the male threads cut on the outside if you can find any of those you
could easily turn the parts you need.. I found plenty of 3" brass plugs on eBay, search for brass, threaded, plugs, cleanouts, couplings, male, female
and you will find plenty of matches, a modern machine shop with CNC lathes and mills could easily turn sets of male and female thread sets, the
more you purchase the cheaper the sets are. They can save the set-up file and make additional parts later on without the setup costs. Another option
is using a continuous piece of threaded male and female stock and cutting a short section of each for your thread sets. You usually need to use a small
file to clean up the starting edge of the threads so they mate up properly. You would need to cut these short pieces on a lathe in between centers to get
a precise square cut on the short threaded sections.

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

Not sure your going to find what your looking for at home depot. They have a limited plumbing section geared more towards home owners. Do you have a dedicated plumbing supply near you that is geared more towards professionals? The people working the counter at one of these places should be very knowledgeable and might know exactly what you need.

I was thinking that was one option. We have a plumbing supply house and one big Irrigation systems place.

 

[Robin Thompson]

I have purchased from here:

https://www.fromwalnuttoantlers.com/

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

I have purchased from here:

https://www.fromwalnuttoantlers.com/

Well, yes, we know that. But if you read above, the owner of that business passed away. That is what the whole thread is about, trying to find where he found them.

 

[Clifton C]

Found half the equation in the UK, searching for "brass flanged back nut". We must call it something else. Now we need some threads... haven't given up yet...

3

3" FLANGED BACKNUT YOU CANNOT MEASURE A BSP THREAD WITH RULER/TAPE MEASURE Assorted sizes BSPP Brass Bush If you have any questions regarding size issue please email and we will get back to you asap. The threaded part(s) of plumbing fittings are made to a British Standard Pipe Thread size (BSP)...

www.cobrafixings.co.uk