Our woodworking club is investigating all hazardous substances and came across the ca glue accelerator as a potential fire hazard. Are there less hazardous accelerators available?
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CA accelerator hazards
- Thread starter Peter D'Attomo
- Start date
I think anything aerosol, in a can under pressure, is going to be flammable. I guess the question would be, how long do the fumes remain after a spritz? I use GluBoost GluDry. This stuff, like any other in-can substance, says highly flammable. However, you use so little of this, because it is so effective, its like a 1 second burst. The spritz dissipates into the air within a couple of seconds. The rest that lands on the surface evaporates in a few more seconds.
Did the club investigate actual flammability, or just whether substances were labeled as flammable? FWIW, most hair sprays in a pressurized can, spray paints, etc. are all flammable as well. However once the contents you've sprayed dissipate into the air, unless you are working in a tightly enclosed space, I think the fire hazard diminishes rapidly towards zero. An interesting investigation, would be how long after spritzing does flammability persist. If you are spraying a lot, in an enclosed space, I could see the worry. If you are spritzing a CA finish every few coats, and only for a moment, I would wonder the issue.
Most pressurized cans state that they are "under pressure" and flammable. I think the warning there is, don't crush the can while its still pressurized, if you do there could be a rapid release of pressurized volatiles, and there could be an issue there. Again though, I think that is pretty much any pressurized spray can of anything...
Did the club investigate actual flammability, or just whether substances were labeled as flammable? FWIW, most hair sprays in a pressurized can, spray paints, etc. are all flammable as well. However once the contents you've sprayed dissipate into the air, unless you are working in a tightly enclosed space, I think the fire hazard diminishes rapidly towards zero. An interesting investigation, would be how long after spritzing does flammability persist. If you are spraying a lot, in an enclosed space, I could see the worry. If you are spritzing a CA finish every few coats, and only for a moment, I would wonder the issue.
Most pressurized cans state that they are "under pressure" and flammable. I think the warning there is, don't crush the can while its still pressurized, if you do there could be a rapid release of pressurized volatiles, and there could be an issue there. Again though, I think that is pretty much any pressurized spray can of anything...
Roger Wiegand
Beta Tester
Time would be a very safe alternative-- you don't need to use an accelerator at all, a bit of patience will solve the problem.
As a long time lab safety guy I'd say that you might focus your attention on the quantities of materials involved-- a 120 ml spritz bottle of accelerator poses relatively little hazard compared to the half dozen gallon cans of solvents that inhabit my shop at any given time, along with a gallon or more of gasoline for the chain saw. If you get into spray lacquer in significant quantities then you start talking serious hazard.
Keep what you need to get your work done, dispose of any excess flammables that you're not using, and store small quantities of waste in a sealed metal container only until it can be removed from the shop. The classic "oil soaked rags" fire from oil-based finishes is real, and takes a lot less material than you'd expect. Your bottle of accelerator isn't going to burst into flames in the middle of the night, but the towels you used to apply varnish, BLO, or a tung oil finish just might.
If you need to keep more than a few gallons of solvent a purpose built flammable storage cabinet is a prudent investment. It needs to be sealed at the base to be able to retain the liquid stored within if the primary containers fail and be made of metal or fire rated plywood-- there's a longer list of rules from OSHA.
As a long time lab safety guy I'd say that you might focus your attention on the quantities of materials involved-- a 120 ml spritz bottle of accelerator poses relatively little hazard compared to the half dozen gallon cans of solvents that inhabit my shop at any given time, along with a gallon or more of gasoline for the chain saw. If you get into spray lacquer in significant quantities then you start talking serious hazard.
Keep what you need to get your work done, dispose of any excess flammables that you're not using, and store small quantities of waste in a sealed metal container only until it can be removed from the shop. The classic "oil soaked rags" fire from oil-based finishes is real, and takes a lot less material than you'd expect. Your bottle of accelerator isn't going to burst into flames in the middle of the night, but the towels you used to apply varnish, BLO, or a tung oil finish just might.
If you need to keep more than a few gallons of solvent a purpose built flammable storage cabinet is a prudent investment. It needs to be sealed at the base to be able to retain the liquid stored within if the primary containers fail and be made of metal or fire rated plywood-- there's a longer list of rules from OSHA.
Hmm, I never use it. It seems that it works on the top bit, but the inside is still uncured, and then you get honey comb type voids in it, at least if it is any depth/thickness.
robo hippy
robo hippy
Cellulose works. I have it in rolls right near my lathe, I think the brand name is Bounty.
The issue at hand is how can the club reduce the health and flammability of the accelerator. Are there accelerators that are less of a hazard and flammability than others?
Roger Wiegand
Beta Tester
Given the chemistry involved, probably not.
CA glue cures by reacting with water in the air. That may take a few seconds of patience but should always work, but maybe not so well in the arid desert.
Since water is a know accelerant, perhaps you could experiment by spritzing a tiny bit of water from a pump spray bottle.
I'd personally worry more about the intense fumes in my eyes from the CA than the accelerator. That's one reason I like Parfix 3408 medical grade CA - no noxious fumes.
I had some commercial accelerator in a small pump bottle - low volume, no aerosol propellant. As far as health and flammability, seems like it might be less hazardous to spritz than spray from a pressurized can.
Maybe avoid spraying around open flames, smoking, running electrical motor with brushes. That might be too easy.
If in a club situation, health concerns from breathing might be reduced if the accelerator was used in cardboard spray booth with a small brushless exhaust fan, such as a computer cooling fan.
Accelerator can used VERY sparingly. There is evidence that even a single molecule of accelerator can start the reaction that can solidify the CA all the way to the bottom of a deep crack or even an entire bottle. When I use accelerator (rarely) I cap the bottle first. Mostly I don't use accelerator but go into a zen trance and wait until it's cured - usually only takes seconds.
JKJ
Since water is a know accelerant, perhaps you could experiment by spritzing a tiny bit of water from a pump spray bottle.
I'd personally worry more about the intense fumes in my eyes from the CA than the accelerator. That's one reason I like Parfix 3408 medical grade CA - no noxious fumes.
I had some commercial accelerator in a small pump bottle - low volume, no aerosol propellant. As far as health and flammability, seems like it might be less hazardous to spritz than spray from a pressurized can.
Maybe avoid spraying around open flames, smoking, running electrical motor with brushes. That might be too easy.
If in a club situation, health concerns from breathing might be reduced if the accelerator was used in cardboard spray booth with a small brushless exhaust fan, such as a computer cooling fan.
Accelerator can used VERY sparingly. There is evidence that even a single molecule of accelerator can start the reaction that can solidify the CA all the way to the bottom of a deep crack or even an entire bottle. When I use accelerator (rarely) I cap the bottle first. Mostly I don't use accelerator but go into a zen trance and wait until it's cured - usually only takes seconds.
JKJ
A single molecule - wow!
I was told that it can cause a "chain reaction" and affect the entire bottle.
Also, apparently bottles of CA fail because the cheap, thin plastic used in most is permeable to water molecules in the air. Compare most bottles with those Mercury Adhesives use, much thicker and formulated, according to a spokesman, to exclude water molecules. Mercury also has, or had, an unconditional replacement warranty on any of their bottles that set up. I also bought some of their empty bottles for other glues.
But something I came up with years ago to extend the life of CA in small bottles: keep them in an air-tight container (preferably glass) with desiccant beads. This can remove any moisture that is in the air trapped inside. I thought of this decades ago and told a friend who started doing it. I then forgot about it until maybe 10 years later he told me how well it worked. So I started using it again. Another thing I started doing recently was displacing the air in CA bottles with Argon gas before screwing on the lid.
I use blue indicator desiccant beads which turn pink when they need to be recharged.
JKJ
Also, apparently bottles of CA fail because the cheap, thin plastic used in most is permeable to water molecules in the air. Compare most bottles with those Mercury Adhesives use, much thicker and formulated, according to a spokesman, to exclude water molecules. Mercury also has, or had, an unconditional replacement warranty on any of their bottles that set up. I also bought some of their empty bottles for other glues.
But something I came up with years ago to extend the life of CA in small bottles: keep them in an air-tight container (preferably glass) with desiccant beads. This can remove any moisture that is in the air trapped inside. I thought of this decades ago and told a friend who started doing it. I then forgot about it until maybe 10 years later he told me how well it worked. So I started using it again. Another thing I started doing recently was displacing the air in CA bottles with Argon gas before screwing on the lid.
I use blue indicator desiccant beads which turn pink when they need to be recharged.
JKJ
The club has 700 members who luckily don't all come at at the same time to the shop. That said, most members have their own supply of solvents, CA, etc. The board is trying to control this by storing the solvents in fireproof cabinets and eliminating/ controlling specific solvents with high flammability and health hazards. While we can't eliminate CA, we're trying to control the accelerator with alternatives. Replies have indicated that the pump spray is less a hazard that aerosol.
JKJ, I like your idea.
JKJ, I like your idea.
Dave Landers
Beta Tester
I found this video about CA glue fairly interesting
Dave,
What an outstanding video. I thought I would watch a little but ended up "glued" to my laptop screen for the whole thing.
The history is fascinating the but the way they explained the chemistry and why it works is exceptional.
I'm sending this to some friends who will love it - all have backgrounds in various science and technology fields.
I especially like what the guy said at the end about being open-minded to pursue possibilities of unexpected results and events.
The skin and eye thing should remind us to always 1) wear safety glasses, and 2) keep a bottle of debonder handy! Once I (accidentally) glued my finger to something on the lathe and the debonder was just out of reach! Fortunately, a scalpel with a #11 blade was within reach. I know from experience you can cut between two glued fingers or a finger and another object without the least damage to the skin. (IF you are careful, and IF you have steady hands and good eyesight or head-mounted magnifiers!)
I do keep bottles of medical grade CA on hand and as well as for woodturnings, I've used in on the farm on horses, llamas, a peacock who ripped a toe on something, and even to patch up a chicken that was attacked by a hawk. Saves a lot of tedious suturing which I'm not that good at. Now if someone could figure out how to add topical antibiotic to the CA...
Thanks for posting this!
JKJ
Dave thank you very much for the video, it's very informative. I'm going to the store to get some baking soda.
Thanks for the video! Love Veritasium, their videos are excellent.
Interesting about using CA as a plastic. The sheer volume of waste from plastics, particularly bottles, makes me wonder why we stopped using glass. Unlike plastic, glass has near-infinite recyclability...
LOL, thanks for the visual.
Mark Hepburn
Artist & Chef
John, that is a great idea. I'm borrowing it.
I find scalpels invaluable in the shop, use them a lot. My favorite are the straight edge #11 blades (buy them by the 100) but the curved #10 are useful too. Sometimes I get disposable scalpels with blade on plastic handles but the handles are NOT strong. Much better are the stainless steel handles the right size for the blades. Besides separating glued fingers they're useful anywhere you need an an small but extremely sharp knife. Good for impromptu surgeries on farm animals too.
And for another visual, I've used them many times to remove a deeply embedded splinter, an occasional hazard around the farm when working without gloves - I "operate" with the finger under a low-power stereo microscope and simply incise down until I locate the splinter and pry it out or use some needle pointed tweezers. A bit of iodine and it's good to go. My wife would NEVER let me do this to her finger - she'd go to the dr and ask for anesthesia!
The desiccant? As mentioned, I thought of this many years ago and told my friend Joe, then forgot about it myself. I finally started doing it myself.John, that is a great idea. I'm borrowing it.
I can't remember if I mentioned it here - in that picture all the beads are blue indicator desiccant which turns pink when it eventualy gets saturated with water. But just a few beads of blue mixed in with the a larger quantity of cheaper white desiccant beads is enough to see the color change. You can recharge in a kitchen oven but keep use the shop toaster oven - leave the small aluminum trays of the pink beads on medium heat until they turn blue. (BTW, I don't wait until the beads turn pink but recharge them when I notice them changing a little.)
Another thing I started doing recently - Mark Sillay told me that Parsons adhesives displaces the air in each bottle of CA with inert gas on the assembly line. I've been doing that successfully for preserving open containers of finishes for years but never thought of doing it with CA. So I started, every time before I put the bottle away. (Will help keep both the molecules of oxygen and water out). I have extra pressurized cylinders of various gasses for use with welding so I just appropriated one full of argon for preservation use. Nitrogen will work too, but it's a bit lighter than air and might migrate upwards away from the liquid surface. A can of Bloxygen, made for preserving finishes, is pure argon.
Mark also said a big mistake people sometimes make is spraying accelerator with the CA bottle near and the cap off. If just a tiny, tiny amount of accelerator, maybe just a molecule, finds it's way into the opened spout of the CA bottle it can start a chain reaction and solidify the whole bottle.
I have an 8oz bottle this may have happened to - completely solid like hard plastic. I cut the plastic away and I'm thinking of mounting the thing on the lathe and turning something from it - never turned straight CA before!
And while on the subject of CA, if anyone hasn't tried the tiny diameter capillary tips you might - I use them when I want the tiniest drop of CA in a spot and don't want an excess which will stain the wood. A tip will fit nicely on a plastic laboratory pipette - pull a little ca into the pipette, close the lid, put the capillary tip on the end, and glue away. The tips will also fit on most CA bottles. Been using them for years. The last time I ordered some tips I bought these from Amazon:
JKJ
I bought a pack of scalpels a couple of months ago. I'll have to remember to keep one withing arm's reach.
Lance Mirrer
AKA "taxman"
Is it the accelerator which is flammable or the projection medium of the aerosol spray can?
I use accelerant in a pump spray bottle and never thought about whether flammable. Will check the bottle and maybe give a pump to a candle
I use accelerant in a pump spray bottle and never thought about whether flammable. Will check the bottle and maybe give a pump to a candle
Mark Hepburn
Artist & Chef
Mr. Google says yes on pump because of solvents used.
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Acetone is a common activator, flammable with a low flashpoint and can be ignited by even a spark. Some, but not all propellant in an aerosol can be a flammable hydrocarbon. The SDS for the particular product should tell.
CA activator is also available in a pump spray which would at least eliminate the gas.
I'd do the candle test outside, not on the birthday cake on a dining table decorated with paper streamers in a house one of the three little pigs built of sticks.
JKJ