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Can this log be turned safely

George Pagliarulo

George Pagliarulo

Joined
Apr 1, 2020
Messages
52
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37
Location
Hudson, NH
I had a tree taken down yesterday that was at end of life. I had the trunk cut into several sections. The second two photos show the ends of one of the trunk sections. You can see where the wood has separated around the circumference of the section. There is also a weak area across the middle.

It looks like this piece could make some really nice looking bowls but I’m not sure of the best and safest way to cut blanks given the flaws. The best thing to do seems to be to cut the section on either side of the seam across the middle to eliminate it. What about that separation? I’ve thought of cutting it in 1/2 across the center line and seeing if I could split out a blank along the wood separation to produce two blanks, similar to using a bowl corer.
Any ideas on the best way to handle this?
Thanks,
George
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I recently did a bowl with a blank that had the same type of fissure in the middle. You probably won't be successful at coring it but have a good chance at turning out a unique bowl. I had to do several repairs and fills along the way, but the finished product was worth it.

This was a Red Gum Eucalyptus Burl.

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Looks like some kind of ornamental cherry? It looks big enough that you would likely get not-too-deep bowl blanks from the area outside the ring separation/shake. It’s a pretty dramatic case. Just be sure as you turn, you watch for other separations. Perhaps use some plastic wrap or otherwise bind the outside as you go until you’re sue it will stay in one piece. As Hughie said, fortify your nerves and stay out of the line of fire.
 
George Pagliarulo said:
Any ideas on the best way to handle this?
Click to expand...

Be cautious be safe

This piiece has serious structural defects that you should work around or fix structurally.
smaller pieces should be ok but do check for defects.
The defect across the center may be hinge tearout from the felling or it might be a bark inclusion.
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If you have turned 15-20 sphere you have the opportunity to turn a hollow sphere.
You also need a lathe with a decent tailstock that will hold for between center turning.
This will impress fellow Woodturners.
This is a medium level undertaking but you don’t want to try it unless you have turned lots of spheres.

I cut the blank so the ring shake is in the center and close to straight across. Tailstock pressure will hold it together.
I rough turn a ball with a tenon on each end. Then hollow each half. I use a round disc as a template.
Leave the walls 3/8” thick 1/2 if you are timid.
Glue the two halfs together with epoxy. I sometime put a quarter inside so you get a rattle.
Unless you lose a splinter the glued together ring shake will look like every other growth ring.
Give the epoxy a day then turn the sphere doing the 3 axis rotations.
Remember it’s hollow so don’t take any more than 3/16 off anywhere.
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hockenbery said:
If you have turned 15-20 balls you have the opportunity to turn a hollow ball.
You also need a lathe with a decent tailstock that will hold for between center turning.
This will impress fellow Woodturners.
This is a medium level undertaking but you don’t want to try it unless you have turned lots of balls.
Click to expand...
Al, I think (unless I’m way off base here) that George was talking about anatomical balls!
 
Before I knew better. I had a piece of walnut on the lathe making a vase it was around 8-9 diameter at the time. The defect didn't look near as significant as yours. What happened was it opened up and came around and bent my steel tool rest. Didn't break apart, just opened up. If it had been a cast tool rest it could have broke and caused more concern. Knowing better now I don’t turn anything like that. I have cut the defect away and turned a smaller piece.
 
Have never turned a sphere so I guess I won’t be doing that.
The center defect is definitely not from felling since it wasn’t…felled (?).
The trunk was only about 5’ high and cut into cookies where it stood.
 
Probably lots of good wood in there. I would suggest cutting it the way Hockenberry suggested. Avoid the ring shake and you'll probably get some nice blanks. I've had a few trees where I've gotten creative working around ring shake to cut blanks
 
George Pagliarulo said:
The trunk was only about 5’ high and cut into cookies where it stood.
Click to expand...

Do be aware that the ring shake will most likely run the full five feet
You may not be able to see it in all the cookies.

An un seen ring shake is extremely dangerous. You can sometimes have some connected wood as you turn the connecting wood gets cut too thin to hold and the wood separates and goes flying.
 
Can you turn it, or should you turn it is two different things. I would never turn any part of it with that seperation ring. I'm not sure that is ring shake, looks like a lightning strike to me. Looks like it was damaged on the outside so badly it never could heal. Lightning boils the lignum and it will crack even more as it dries. I had a beautiful hard maple with just brilliant colors caused by a bacterial infection from the lightning damage. I was lucky to get even pen blanks out of it without lots of checking.
 
Richard Coers said:
Can you turn it, or should you turn it is two different things.
Click to expand...

This is exactly right…. I would turn that log all day long. I would take precautions and use lots of epoxy/glue/inserts/tape and anything else necessary.

But I’m a weirdo and in the farthest end of the tiniest minority of turners who ONLY turn junk wood.

Before you think about IF you should turn it, figure out why you would want to? What is the goal? Do you sell pieces? Are you bored with good wood and want a challenge? Is the tree significant in some way to you? Are you trying to make a whole set of bowls/utensils for your own use or as a gift?

If you’re willing to put in the time and energy (and $$) ANYTHING is turnable/salvageable.

I sell my work and I’m lucky to have consistent customers who like what I do. For me, it would be totally worth it, a fun challenge, and a very good money maker.
 
George Pagliarulo said:
I had a tree taken down yesterday that was at end of life. I had the trunk cut into several sections. The second two photos show the ends of one of the trunk sections. You can see where the wood has separated around the circumference of the section. There is also a weak area across the middle.

It looks like this piece could make some really nice looking bowls but I’m not sure of the best and safest way to cut blanks given the flaws. The best thing to do seems to be to cut the section on either side of the seam across the middle to eliminate it. What about that separation? I’ve thought of cutting it in 1/2 across the center line and seeing if I could split out a blank along the wood separation to produce two blanks, similar to using a bowl corer.
Any ideas on the best way to handle this?
Thanks,
George
View attachment 66258
View attachment 66256View attachment 66257
Click to expand...
I think my attempt would be to cut in this order and hopefully you can cut straighter than I can draw with a mouse.
cut plan.jpeg
 
Tim Hanus said:
I think my attempt would be to cut in this order and hopefully you can cut straighter than I can draw with a mouse.
Click to expand...
A reasonable start, but just to be clear, there's still danger areas in the blanks that makes.
The red is definitely dangerous, which is probably obvious since it's already coming apart. Needs to be cut away before turning. I've marked a couple other spots in yellow that also look suspicious to me. Might just be marks from the saw or something, but could be other ring shake evidence. If so, that entire growth ring all around the tree is likely compromised.

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One strategy (that helps but is not fool-proof) is to take each blank before it goes on the lathe, and throw it down hard onto a concrete floor (driveway etc) a few times. If it comes apart, that's a clue. But also listen to hear if it sounds solid or not.
 
Well, for me, I would not put it on a lathe at all. I do make bowls intended for daily use though. Ring shake, big danger. Bark inclusion, big danger. Dave's lay out up above would work for smaller bowls. Probably similar for spheres.

robo hippy
 
George Pagliarulo said:
The lathe is a Nova 1624-44. I have both carbide tools and traditional bowl gouges, scrappers etc. As for my balls, the older I get the closer they get to pewter rather than steel. Oh, just realized you said nerves not balls. Nerve-wise, the older I get the less of them work.
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I know the feeling!
 
William Rogers said:
Before I knew better. I had a piece of walnut on the lathe making a vase it was around 8-9 diameter at the time. The defect didn't look near as significant as yours. What happened was it opened up and came around and bent my steel tool rest. Didn't break apart, just opened up. If it had been a cast tool rest it could have broke and caused more concern. Knowing better now I don’t turn anything like that. I have cut the defect away and turned a smaller piece.
Click to expand...
I do the same - better safe than sorry!
 
To make objects out of questionable wood those of us who use CNC machines don't have problems. The wood can be stationary on the machine table with the tool moving respect to wood.
 
Life is too short to turn crappy wood. JJ

Remember this stuff literally grows on trees. If you want to make bowls find different wood. If you must turn this wood cut out the defects but my guess is what is left will be pretty small.



Walt
 
Update
After cutting the log in half along the existing center line, I moved the half with most of the separation and it separated completely.
 

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George Pagliarulo said:
Update
After cutting the log in half along the existing center line, I moved the half with most of the separation and it separated completely.
Click to expand...

That was probable from the ring shake.
That was the likely danger area for turning.
That piece has potential for NE bowls

Did the inside part look like a good bowl blank?
 
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I still think that was from a lightning strike. The bark blows off the line down to the ground and that heals over to make that long vertical wound in the trunk. It also boils the lignum in the wood and the cells no longer are attached to each other.
 
George Pagliarulo said:
Update
After cutting the log in half along the existing center line, I moved the half with most of the separation and it separated completely.
Click to expand...

You did what I would have suggested if I’d seen this earlier. I always cut up big pieces into smaller pieces then reevaluate based on what I find at the new cut. Rinse and repeat. Occasionally some spectacular big wood ends up as useful 4x4s, 2x2s, or even smaller blanks. There are a many pen and stopper turners out there.

And don’t forget those who need firewood and kindling. The wood stove doesn’t mind ring shake or lightning splits. A friend has hauled many trailer loads of wood from my place, then she cuts and splits into firewood. She delivers to her list of mostly elderly, disabled vets, etc, those she calls her “clients”, who heat with wood and have limited resources. She is probably the most empathetic and generous people I’ve met in my life.

JKJ
 
hockenbery said:
That was probable from the ring shake.
That was the likely danger area for turning.
That piece has potential for NE bowls

Did the inside part look like a good bowl blank?
Click to expand...
Yes it does. I really like the the outsee part. I’m thinking if I cut it into 4 pieces, I can use the two left pieces ( there’s a split between them) for spindle blanks. The right-hand piece for a shallow bowl (though I’ll be asking you guys how to mount it when the time comes), and the center piece for a hand carved elongated bowl with the bark side as the interior. Hand carved because I just like the idea of it and that’s what the wood is saying to me.
The tree was an ornamental cherry in the front yard that has great sentimental value. Lots of family memories around that tree. The idea is to give everyone a part of it.
 

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George Pagliarulo said:
if I cut it into 4 pieces
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One or more of those spindles might become pepper mills.
Something used often.
Kent Reisdorph said:
Has anyone tried gluing ring shake pieces back together
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If it is tight they glue together well. However if there is a big gap the glue up isn’t effective

I have used the two sides of ring shakes 5-6 times to make hollow balls.
Hold the two parts together between centers. Rough a ball with a tenon on each end. Cut a round template a 5/8” less than the ball diameter. Hollow each part to the template. Glue it then finish turn the ball taking no more than 1/8” or so off.

The glue joint follows a growth ring and is undetectable unless you loose a splinter and have a tiny hole.
 
I would burn it. Too much work to get good blanks out of it to be worth the effort. Bark inclusion, multiple cracks, and ring shake. You could get some small spindle blanks out of it which will sit around forever till you remember them.

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
You could get some small spindle blanks out of it which will sit around forever till you remember them.
Click to expand...

Some might be surprised at how spindle blanks sell at our club wood auctions. This year I took a big Bag ‘O Cherry of various sized blanks, some packages with a dozen pen blanks each, some wand and bottle stopper blanks. All dry. For other auctions I took stacks of spindle and other small blanks of various species - all of them sold, some for surprising amounts. When I teach spindle turning everyone leaves with blanks, some for practice, some to make things. There is, in fact, life beyond the bowl!

JKJ
 
Kent Reisdorph said:
Has anyone tried gluing ring shake pieces back together? Seems trivial enough and should hold fine.
Click to expand...

Yes I have and yes it does. But I also use a good glue.
It's expensive to buy and expensive to use (takes a scale), but worth it. W.E.S.T.'s G/Flex-655
  • I have only used the 655 - very thick and does not run
  • The 655 is easy to color - I use black from System-3
  • G/Flex cures down to 40-degrees-F
  • Was designed to patch the bottom of a boat "while in the water"
  • While it doesn't dry hard, it dries hard enough to cut with a gouge and can be sanded
  • But if you don't spray a high-solids coating, the voids, filled with "non-wood" material, present an inconsistent surface to your turning.
  • But if you do spray high-solids, G/Flex will allow you to finish out logs that many would toss
 
Two short answers for you:
  • First...yes, provided you're patient to cut the original piece into smaller blanks such that they have structural integrity.
  • Second...way your patience against what can you reasonably expect to get out of the log once processed compared to how readily wood is available to you.
Cost benefit analysis...
 
I've done a bunch of ring-shake logs. They get prepped by using thinned penetrating epoxy, tinted and poured into the endgrain cracks and allowed plenty of time to cure (several weeks)

These are from a Red Maple tree that had a serious amount of disease and spalting.
Make sure you're wearing your headgear!!!
Last Maple-1.jpgRedM-3.jpg
 
I neglected to mention that the log needs to be dry for the epoxy to grip the ring shake crack. Sorry, I'm so used to turning dry wood that I didn't mention it
 
I have decided that if one needs to ask if a log can be safely turned, maybe it should just be firewood. Much safer.
There is so much wood available out there, why take any chance at all with ring shakes and cracks?
Just me thinking here is all.
 
One person's opinion of not turning perfect wood is ok but many of us like to turn challenging wood that produces a one-of-a-kind

unique piece that takes something destined for the burn pile and saves it.

This burl had ring shake in it but was too beautiful to just toss away. A little work and voila!

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This other piece was Citrus wood, punky and had a crack down the length of the blank. With a lot of work, I created this piece which is my Mom's Urn.

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