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Can wood get too old..?

B

Bernie Kopfer

Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
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Location
Wenatchee, WA
I recently obtained a large number of once turned bowls that varied in age from 5 to 16 years in age. Various hardwoods native to western Washington, all properly turned, ready to remount and turn. Stored in an enclosed outside shed. I moved them to eastern Washington and their moisture content now reads 6-7%. Upon turning I’m finding the wood is prone to easily cracking for no good reason and some actually seem to be brittle. By way of experience I usually obtain green wood, once turn it and let it dry until it quits losing moisture, again 6-7%. The wood turns well, not like these older bowls. Is it possible for wood to get too old to turn well?
 
My recollection of Washington is west is wet and east is dry. If you are using a surface moisture meter maybe the outside of the blank is dry, but the inside of the bowl blank has a higher moisture. If you use a scale to weigh them and record the weight over time you should be able to determine if they are gaining or losing weight or at equilibrium. Differences in moisture within the blank would be a stress and could result is the behavior you observed. I am skeptical that age would explain this behavior.
 
Bernie Kopfer said:
I recently obtained a large number of once turned bowls that varied in age from 5 to 16 years in age. Various hardwoods native to western Washington, all properly turned, ready to remount and turn. Stored in an enclosed outside shed. I moved them to eastern Washington and their moisture content now reads 6-7%. Upon turning I’m finding the wood is prone to easily cracking for no good reason and some actually seem to be brittle. By way of experience I usually obtain green wood, once turn it and let it dry until it quits losing moisture, again 6-7%. The wood turns well, not like these older bowls. Is it possible for wood to get too old to turn well?
Click to expand...
Change of location will greatly affect any seasoned wood, you have to let acclimatize to it new surroundings. As an example, on a short trip to New Zealand I picked a couple of blanks the had been in storage in excess of 10 years. Moisture tested in NZ at 10% which was fine. With in 10 days of putting into storage in Australia, they opened like a banana, totally useless for hollow vessels. I didn't make any attempt to acclimatize and so paid the price.
 
Umm.. so how is it folks are turning 15,000 year old bog oak , among other things... Nah wood cant get too old, but it can move - and moving too fast (like any other old thing, like me!) is seldom good for it - so one wants to slow down the rate of which it moves and surest way to do that is breathable but wrapped - such as in brown paper bags... and let it acclimatize a month or more to its new environment , then just check for moisture *STABILITY* by weight (I weigh mine in grams) once it stops gaining or losing weight for a month or so then it's pretty much at equilibrium with its environment - no need for moisture % which often only reads a few millimeters deep and won't tell you how wet or dry the wood is in the middle
 
As others have said the blanks need to stabilize in your dryer climate. Paper bags and weighing is the easiest and simplest method I know of.

Although these blanks are not stabilized for your drier climate, they will still turn as dry wood, which is much different than turning wet wood. Dry wood is physically harder and more brittle vs wet, ie normal behavior. Dry wood will dull edges faster, and will have more force on the tool edge vs wet. Take lighter cuts and sharpen more often.

With dry bowl blanks, I get the tenon returned, and get the OD ~90% round, then turn the ID ~90% round, then finish the OD. This releases stress and the OD will stay more round as the bowl is finished.
 
Well, that move is a pretty drastic change in climate. Not sure what the problem is. If they were still in western WA, probably fine. I don't know if putting them in a higher humidity chamber for a week or so would help or not. Some may depend on the wood species too.

robo hippy
 
Age of the wood has absolutely nothing to do with it turning well. Especially if you consider 16 years as old!!!! I turned this boxes from 110 year old long leaf pine. I recycled them from window framing in an old building. EDIT; There is a better likelihood that the wood had minute cracks that you didn’t see before you turned it.
 

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That is a great tip, Richard. I’ve run across some gummy wood although I can’t recall the species and didn’t really know how to deal with it.

Cypress isn’t the best way to turn and it’s definitely not the best to sand on the lathe.
 
I was tasked with turning something from some very old Oak from a house restoration. The wood came from the original structure so was several hundred years old and very dry.
Impossible to turn as it was but I read about a trick for difficult to turn timbers. I soaked it for a few months in a 50/50 mixture of liquid dish soap and water. It was then left to drain for a couple of weeks. It didn’t turn too badly until I hit a cut nail hidden inside. The resultant Bowl I turned from it looked ok though. I finished it in Danish Oil I think. The house owner was pleased with it.
 
Bernie Kopfer said:
I recently obtained a large number of once turned bowls that varied in age from 5 to 16 years in age. Various hardwoods native to western Washington, all properly turned, ready to remount and turn. Stored in an enclosed outside shed. I moved them to eastern Washington and their moisture content now reads 6-7%. Upon turning I’m finding the wood is prone to easily cracking for no good reason and some actually seem to be brittle. By way of experience I usually obtain green wood, once turn it and let it dry until it quits losing moisture, again 6-7%. The wood turns well, not like these older bowls. Is it possible for wood to get too old to turn well?
Click to expand...
IMO...yes, BUT, it depends on the species, how it was cut/turned, and what climate it was stored in. I just disposed of a couple of blanks that were so old and dry it was like turning dust. Fortunately wood is very cheap for me.
 
John Grace said:
...dry
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A list of those species that get too dry would give some credence to your comment. My feeling is that the turner’s skill, tool choices, and techniques has a lot more to do with this wood moisture content disqualification for turning. Around here, wood never goes below 12% if it just sits on a shelf for years. Also to be considered is the OP asked if age can disqualify wood for turning, not moisture. I’ve seen examples of 4,000 year old redwood being turned.
 
I have some bog oak that I turn. It turns easily and is something like 5,000 years old and it's been drying in my shop for over a year.
 
Bernie Kopfer said:
By way of experience I usually obtain green wood, once turn it and let it dry until it quits losing moisture, again 6-7%. The wood turns well, not like these older bowls. Is it possible for wood to get too old to turn well?
Click to expand...
Green wood is by its nature more fun to turn than dry wood.

It is quite possible there are cracks in your dried bowls that you didn’t/couldn’t see until you did some turning.

I fought this is your problem but Its possible for a bouncing tool to crack a bowl on returning.
You have a lot of interrupted cuts when returning a bowl, rim, outside, inside.
An endgrain turned bowl is more easily cracked than the more common face grain turned bowl

This is how I mount and return a dried bowl - the second half of a demo after I turn a green bowl for drying first.
hockenbery

Thread 'Re-turning a dry bowl'

In January 2017 I did a demo for tri-county Woodturner's about working with green wood. It had three parts: Overview of wood and tips for successful drying, Roughing a green bowl, and Re-turning the dry bowl. Special thanks to Jan Brown for excellent video work and to Carl Brown for Setting up all the gear and making the DVD.

Below is the video of the Re-turning a dry bowl part. It shows the way I mount and turn a dried bowl mostly using the Ellsworth gouge. I also use a small bowl gouge with a Michelson grind for the first inch of the inside and spindle gouge for reshaping the...
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Brian Gustin said:
Umm.. so how is it folks are turning 15,000 year old bog oak , among other things... Nah wood cant get too old, but it can move - and moving too fast (like any other old thing, like me!) is seldom good for it - so one wants to slow down the rate of which it moves and surest way to do that is breathable but wrapped - such as in brown paper bags... and let it acclimatize a month or more to its new environment , then just check for moisture *STABILITY* by weight (I weigh mine in grams) once it stops gaining or losing weight for a month or so then it's pretty much at equilibrium with its environment - no need for moisture % which often only reads a few millimeters deep and won't tell you how wet or dry the wood is in the middle
Click to expand...
Wood always move with the seasons and hardens over time. There is story out that Stradivarius his secret he may have had access to some very old wood [600 years old] from a nearby monastery that was undergoing some maintenance
 
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