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Card scrapers for turnings?

Brian Kopp

Brian Kopp

Joined
Mar 22, 2023
Messages
174
Likes
498
Location
Strasburg, VA
Hi folks,
Having no general wood working experience (and not that much wood turning experience at this point) I recently looked into card scrapers. I was vaguely aware of their existence and use in carpentry in general, but I just recently discovered they’re available in many various curved shapes.

Since I’ve only been turning a year and a half I’m still struggling with tool marks, especially those at the inside corners of bowls and the cigar rests I make on cigar ashtrays using the router.

I just ordered these to see if they might be effective in dealing with tool marks in hard to reach areas where my 3” sanding disks on my 55• drill don’t work well.

IMG_9536.jpegIMG_9537.jpeg

Of course I’d use these with the bowl off the lathe, not spinning!

Does anyone use have any experience with curved card scrapers being utilized this way?

I’ve seen videos on sharpening flat card scrapers but I’m not sure how that would be done with curved ones. Any thoughts on that?
 
Brian Kopp said:
I’ve seen videos on sharpening flat card scrapers but I’m not sure how that would be done with curved ones. Any thoughts on that?
Click to expand...
I have the DFM set (the first pic) and have also made a few of my own from an old handsaw blade. Only thing needed for them really is having a perfect squared edge which you can then roll a burr on it (I also got a specialized burr rolling tool for that as well which makes it easier, but burr can be formed with any piece of steel that is harder than the card scraper steel.) Round ones of course may be more difficult to manage but a jig can be made to hold card plate square to diamond stone and then just hone the square edge, roll your burr and good to go.

However, I wouldn't think to use one on bowls, really - I'd as soon get a regular negative rake scraper , or make one or modify one to the curve I need (The bowl scraper set I got has a parabolic curve to them , not particularly difficult to grind one either) For particularly tight corners (radiuses, if you will) I might just turn a sanding block to match the radius and use that to form my sandpaper to the piece... but generally I avoid even turning such curves.. but for the most part if the curve can be formed using the tools at hand, then it's pretty much just a case of practice to get a smooth cut through the transition (perhaps a custom grind to a gouge or some such?)
 
I started using a scraper I got from Stewart Macdonald. They make/sell luthier’s tools - an old friend thart builds high-end custom furniture and builds guitars turned me on to them. It’s about 1/8th” thick, seems to be hss and takes a lovely burr on my 80grit cbn wheel. I use it both on and off the lathe for troublesome areas (never with the lathe running. It holds a burr for quite a long time and does a very nice job when needed. Comes in handy for flatwork, too.
 

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JeffSmith said:
I started using a scraper I got from Stewart Macdonald. They make/sell luthier’s tools - an old friend thart builds high-end custom furniture and builds guitars turned me on to them. It’s about 1/8th” thick, seems to be hss and takes a lovely burr on my 80grit cbn wheel. I use it both on and off the lathe for troublesome areas (never with the lathe running. It holds a burr for quite a long time and does a very nice job when needed. Comes in handy for flatwork, too.
Click to expand...

Oh boy.... thanks a LOT... another drool tools website to throw money at for more tools I could probably have spent years without and not missing..... LOL!
 
Brian Kopp said:
Since I’ve only been turning a year and a half I’m still struggling with tool marks, especially those at the inside corners of bowls
Click to expand...

The top inside of a bowl is a hard spot. The bevel has to ride on air as it enters the wood. So easy to loose bevel contact….

A Jimmie clewes trick really helps here. Use a 1/4” bowl gouge (3/8 bar dia)) to turn the first 1” to 2” below the rim.
A traditional grind 45 degree bevel works great. A Michelsen grind is a smidge better.
The smaller tool lets you concentrate on making a lighter cut.
In the classes Jimmy has done for our clubs the students all got smooth cuts at the top inside.
 
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Have used card scrapers quite a bit in flat ww. I used them same for turning (even with the lathe running…not recommended). I found turning scrapers much better (and safer!).

For “spotty” tool marks or tear out, power sanding, with the lathe off, on those areas, and blending into the contour, works pretty well.
 
I use cards when cleaning up seam joints inside my tall vessels. If I build them in sections, I typically finish them as well while apart. When joined, there is some squeeze out that is often outside of my tool reach. I’ve used them both without the lathe on and with it running at the slowest speed. It’s always a knee knocker for me with the lathe on…..I’m very careful about setting the edge to the wood, light cuts for sure.
 
Brian Kopp said:
Hi folks,
Having no general wood working experience (and not that much wood turning experience at this point) I recently looked into card scrapers. I was vaguely aware of their existence and use in carpentry in general, but I just recently discovered they’re available in many various curved shapes.

Since I’ve only been turning a year and a half I’m still struggling with tool marks, especially those at the inside corners of bowls and the cigar rests I make on cigar ashtrays using the router.

I just ordered these to see if they might be effective in dealing with tool marks in hard to reach areas where my 3” sanding disks on my 55• drill don’t work well.

View attachment 61418View attachment 61419

Of course I’d use these with the bowl off the lathe, not spinning!

Does anyone use have any experience with curved card scrapers being utilized this way?

I’ve seen videos on sharpening flat card scrapers but I’m not sure how that would be done with curved ones. Any thoughts on that?
Click to expand...
Look for Clay Foster. That's who demoed it in text
 
Gary Beasley said:
A card scraper works very much like a negative rake scraper.
Click to expand...
How does a square edge card scraper with a burr, work like a negative rake scraper with a negative bevel angle and burr? Also a card scraper is only a fraction of the hardness of a negative rake scraper. You can file card scrapers. I don't see any similarity.
 
Richard Coers said:
How does a square edge card scraper with a burr, work like a negative rake scraper with a negative bevel angle and burr? Also a card scraper is only a fraction of the hardness of a negative rake scraper. You can file card scrapers. I don't see any similarity.
Click to expand...
Umm the important part of pretty much any scraper in any shape is going to be the burr. a Properly formed burr can actually cut the wood and leave a VERY nice surface, indeed, a surface that can NOT be improved by sanding - Much like a hand plane (And I often will use card scrapers where the hand plane wants to tear out - Scraper takes whisper thin shavings - thinner than hair.) A Manually operated card scraper in a Bowl, I can imagine would leave a very nice surface (Though I don't know as I'd be able to fit my hands in a small bowl well enough to manipulate the scraper- not with my ham hands, but if I had a scraper shaped to match the bowl's inside shape, I could use one very effectively on a somewhat larger than 7-8 inch bowl - It'd just be more work than I'd want to put into it! I'd never try to use a hand held card scraper on a spinning bowl, however - I'm not THAT nuts. )

However, the point of the scraper is a piece of metal that holds the cutting edge (the Burr or Hook) to the wood - The wood doesn't know or care whether it is negative rake or standard or a card scraper - the only difference being in how it is utilized or presented to the wood.
 
Brian Gustin said:
Umm the important part of pretty much any scraper in any shape is going to be the burr. a Properly formed burr can actually cut the wood and leave a VERY nice surface, indeed, a surface that can NOT be improved by sanding - Much like a hand plane (And I often will use card scrapers where the hand plane wants to tear out - Scraper takes whisper thin shavings - thinner than hair.) A Manually operated card scraper in a Bowl, I can imagine would leave a very nice surface (Though I don't know as I'd be able to fit my hands in a small bowl well enough to manipulate the scraper- not with my ham hands, but if I had a scraper shaped to match the bowl's inside shape, I could use one very effectively on a somewhat larger than 7-8 inch bowl - It'd just be more work than I'd want to put into it! I'd never try to use a hand held card scraper on a spinning bowl, however - I'm not THAT nuts. )

However, the point of the scraper is a piece of metal that holds the cutting edge (the Burr or Hook) to the wood - The wood doesn't know or care whether it is negative rake or standard or a card scraper - the only difference being in how it is utilized or presented to the wood.
Click to expand...
If the wood doesn't know or care if it's a negative rake scraper, why did everyone want to buy one? You make it sound like it's useless. Do you use a negative rake?
 
Richard Coers said:
If the wood doesn't know or care if it's a negative rake scraper, why did everyone want to buy one? You make it sound like it's useless. Do you use a negative rake?
Click to expand...
Negative Rake is basically just a means to present the cutting burr at a different angle of attack to the wood - Given a burr will stick out and up x degrees from the top flat surface of the scraper, the negative rake changes the angle of attack that you present the burr to the wood, assuming you use the scraper same as a standard scraper - flat and level on tool rest slightly above center. (Much like how you'll change what angle you hold your card scraper to your wood to adjust how much of a shaving you are taking - Any one experienced with using card scrapers in flat work will probably "get" what I am talking about... maybe that's why I just have an instinctive understanding of it, I dunno... )

As mentioned by John R., I never implied negative rake (or regular flat standard scrapers for that matter) are useless - I use all three (regular, negative rake scrapers in turning, and Card scrapers in my flat work) with fairly equal effectiveness, depending on the particular piece I am working with. I like the negative rake for finishing down through a transition where I can't get it done with a gouge.. but prefer the regular flat scrapers for heavier roughing cuts.. and Card scrapers of course in flat work can be a godsend and save a lot of sanding... and I can envision using them in turning, I just don't have any shaped well enough to do the trick, nor the patience to try - I'd as soon go to the 80 grit gouge in a bowl as trying to scrape out a ridge by hand with a card scraper, though I could see it being done.
 
Here is a wonderful USA-made card scraper, costs all of $24, and I have one. A nice 8-minute video at the bottom of the page shows how to dress and sharpen it, too (their preferred method, anyway, but you'll get the idea). They sell the carbide burnisher shown as well.
lostartpress.com

Crucible Card Scraper

The gently curved Crucible card scraper is efficient and easy to use: 1095 spring steel hardened & tempered to a Rockwell (C) hardness of 48 to 51; the faces are polished & blued for rust-resistance; comes with a magnet, which acts as a heat sink while scraping, making the tool comfortable to...
lostartpress.com lostartpress.com
Other tools from them are also available. Lost Art Press is also a woodworking book publisher (50-60 titles) Furniture is the general focus, but the books are high quality in both subject matter and construction. I own several of their books and a handful of their tools, all first-rate stuff.
 
There is a big difference between scraping cuts and shear/sheer scraping cuts. Scraping cuts, with standard burr scrapers, burnished burr scrapers, NRSs, NRSs with burnished burrs, and scrapers with the burr honed and stropped off still cut with a scraping action, which on bowls means they all pull at the fiber as they cut, so you will get some 'rough' areas when you are going against the grain. Any kind of shear/sheer angle means that the cutting edge slices rather than pulls, or maybe it will still pull a tiny bit, but the resulting surface is far cleaner than a scraper will leave. The sheer angle does a better job of getting under the fibers and lifting them gently as you cut.

As for hardness, I have never taken a file to HSS tools. However, when sharpening my card scrapers, I use a diamond plate rather than a file. If you want to go cheap on your card scrapers, any old hand saw blade will work great.

robo hippy
 
I find the StewMac scraper acts very much like a nrs in shear scraping mode - easy to hold in one hand at an angle to the grain and taking delicate shavings (lathe off or off lathe only). If you really need to get after a particularly problematic area, a little more pressure can get you there with a thicker shaving. It acts like a low angle block plane on end grain. Probably has more to do with the 1/8” thickness and the hss. The shape allows use in many situations a typical card scraper won’t fit. I use mine a lot. StewMac has videos on use and sharpening - although they show it sharpened on a proprietary small wheel grinder (I find my typical low speed 8” grinder with cbn wheels works just fine).
 
When discussing the use of card scrapers, remember they also come in oval, gooseneck, inside and outside curves and can be hand cut and filed to a custom shape. A handled form of scraper (the scratch stock) is used by restoration furniture makers to create traditional and historic moldings (check out Garrett Hack's Classic Hand Tools). Find assorted scrapers sets in the Lee Valley catalogue. If they will work shaping a sculpted chair seat, why not a bowl?
 
Are you using gouges or carbide scrapers to hollow out your bowls? If the latter, the best way to remove tool marks is by switching to gouges. Keep them sharp and practice riding the bevel.

Regardless of tool type, power sanding is the way to go for removing tool marks. A 2” sanding disc should be able to hit tight spots in most bowls. If you can’t get in there good enough with a soft sanding pad, a little hand sanding starting with 80 or 120 grit should take care of most tool marks pretty quickly.
 
Steve Tiedman said:
Here is a wonderful USA-made card scraper, costs all of $24, and I have one. A nice 8-minute video at the bottom of the page shows how to dress and sharpen it, too (their preferred method, anyway, but you'll get the idea). They sell the carbide burnisher shown as well.
lostartpress.com

Crucible Card Scraper

The gently curved Crucible card scraper is efficient and easy to use: 1095 spring steel hardened & tempered to a Rockwell (C) hardness of 48 to 51; the faces are polished & blued for rust-resistance; comes with a magnet, which acts as a heat sink while scraping, making the tool comfortable to...
lostartpress.com lostartpress.com
Other tools from them are also available. Lost Art Press is also a woodworking book publisher (50-60 titles) Furniture is the general focus, but the books are high quality in both subject matter and construction. I own several of their books and a handful of their tools, all first-rate stuff.
Click to expand...
Lost Art has some turning content also; they have a video you can buy from Peter Galbert on spindle turning which I keep meaning to get.

On thick card scrapers for flat work, that tradition wasn't lost everywhere. A good friend who specialized in 18th century French furniture made his scrapers from hand plane irons. My most used card scraper is thick enough that I can`t flex it with my fingers. It`s good that Crucible and Stewmac are reminding people that a thick scraper earns it`s place, but it is not an innovation.
 
Jaramiah Severns said:
Are you using gouges or carbide scrapers to hollow out your bowls? If the latter, the best way to remove tool marks is by switching to gouges. Keep them sharp and practice riding the bevel.

Regardless of tool type, power sanding is the way to go for removing tool marks. A 2” sanding disc should be able to hit tight spots in most bowls. If you can’t get in there good enough with a soft sanding pad, a little hand sanding starting with 80 or 120 grit should take care of most tool marks pretty quickly.
Click to expand...
Bowl gouges mostly, and cupped carbides, but not carbide scrapers. I’ve subsequently gotten much better at power sanding with 3” disks on a 55 degree drill, so the problem for which I bought scraper assortment
IMG_0397.jpegIMG_0398.jpeg
resolved itself before I used them.

On the other hand they subsequently came in very handy with the scallops on this candy dish.
IMG_0190.jpeg
and the cigar rests on these ashtrays:
uuid=BFC12542-00FD-42DD-AF73-77EAA3CD8896&library=1&type=1&mode=2&loc=true&cap=true.jpeg
 
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Since this original post I converted a Sorby heavy inside bowl scraper to negative rake and picked up a French curve negative rake inside bowl scraper. Plus I made a round nosed negative rake scraper from scratch using an HSS blank off Amazon.

Those tools probably did more to solve the tool marks problem than anything.
 
I made these scrapers after seeing the ones on the Stewmac site. They are used hand held and easy to control.
 

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