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Does this work for drying wood?

R

Rachel Aberle

Joined
Aug 7, 2021
Messages
140
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36
Location
Oshkosh, Wisconsin
Since staring lathe turning in October last year, I’ve been experimenting on drying the green wood turned bowls (bowls that were learning curve bowls)

These are bowls that has part of the pith included many times as the one shown below. (Ash)

I’m not really interested in second turning and am okay with bowls slightly moving to their final state on their own.

What I’ve been doing is not drying at all in shavings or anything else. I’ve been turning the bowls to the thickness I want (not real thin or anything), pouring white vinegar over them, letting them drying for up to a week or less, then sanding.

I’ve had hardly any crack.

I’ve tried the vinegar because after ebonizing some, noticed the same thing.

You can see the bowl below isn’t overly thin. It has some of the torn up pith area on the left side I left and just sanded as it’s part of that ash we cut down and I’m okay with that wood look for personal use.

64E2EA42-A0F2-45F2-8CB6-2175FF567584.jpeg
 
I once turn almost all of my bowls. I like the warped shapes. Which woods will crack, and which won't crack, at least won't crack often depends almost as much as the wood as it does on drying conditions. I don't get much ash, but I do consider it fairly stable when drying, as in not a huge amount of movement, and little cracking. I wouldn't attempt drying in wet shavings as that makes things moldy. I generally turn to about 1/4 inch, wrap the rim with stretch film, but not maple because it will mold under the plastic, put on the floor of the shop for a few days, then up on wire racks, if I remember to get them off the floor. They are dry in about a week, even in our wet winters. Not sure what the vinegar would do other than keep mold down. Some woods I can turn to 1/2 inch thick, but generally go a bit thinner, never more than about 3/8, and I don't measure, I just do it by eye.... Finding what works best for you is a major fun part of the journey....

robo hippy
 
Vinegar is an acid. I don't see any benefit of adding that process to remove moisture. I suppose it blends with water, but denatured alcohol has its own following for drying because it combines with water. Think gin and tonic.
 
There are lots of different ways and opinions on how to dry your work. I think it depends on a lot of variables and you have to pick what works for you and how you want to work. Where you live, time of year, what type of wood, when cut down, what kind of outcome are you are after, natural edge, traditional, hollow forms, how much time do you have to monitor, space to store, how long do you want to wait, utility or display piece, etc, etc. It can get complicated and overwhelming quick. After a while I settled on a fairly basic process that works well for me, minimal failure, reasonable time invest to monitor and the outcome fits my goals. Never tried vinegar. Not sure what it's intended to do.
 
I don't know why vinegar would promote drying, if at all, without doing some research. I have had excellent success drying bowls of varying moisture content using silica beads in a sealed container. This, of course, involves buying the beads, which seem to be a little pricey these days. However, the result is generally a bowl which is as dry as possible within 2 - 3 days of turning. While there is sometimes a tiny amount of change in shape, it is generally not noticeable. The reason for this is because the bowl needs to be buried completely in the beads and, therefore, the wood dries evenly overall, assuming that the thickness is at least close to even over the whole bowl. I have dried end grain and edge grain pieces and they all end up with a good result. Some I have returned, but the majority have been final turned and then placed in the beads till dry. I don't use very wet blanks, but I don't see why starting with a very green blank would make much difference because, by the time you're done turning, much of the moisture has evaporated during turning. The beads can be regenerated when saturated with moisture by placing them on a cookie sheet in the oven at around 200 to 225 degrees. Generally it takes only about 30 - 60 minutes to get them back to new.

Larger bowls require more beads and, therefore aren't as practical but, for bowls and hollowforms up to 8"-10" in diameter it seems to be practical for me.

There are many ways to dry bowls and hollow forms; multiple short periods in the microwave at low settings, paper bags with or without shavings, building a drying box with a light bulb and fan.... All work from what I read and have learned from professional turners. If something is working, use it until you find something better.
 
robo hippy said:
I once turn almost all of my bowls. I like the warped shapes. Which woods will crack, and which won't crack, at least won't crack often depends almost as much as the wood as it does on drying conditions. I don't get much ash, but I do consider it fairly stable when drying, as in not a huge amount of movement, and little cracking. I wouldn't attempt drying in wet shavings as that makes things moldy. I generally turn to about 1/4 inch, wrap the rim with stretch film, but not maple because it will mold under the plastic, put on the floor of the shop for a few days, then up on wire racks, if I remember to get them off the floor. They are dry in about a week, even in our wet winters. Not sure what the vinegar would do other than keep mold down. Some woods I can turn to 1/2 inch thick, but generally go a bit thinner, never more than about 3/8, and I don't measure, I just do it by eye.... Finding what works best for you is a major fun part of the journey....

robo hippy
Click to expand...
I agree. I’ve done this with maple and walnut as well and it worked. Maybe it’s more mold than anything?
 
Rachel Aberle said:
pouring white vinegar over them, letting them drying for up to a week or less, then sanding.

I’ve had hardly any crack.

I’ve tried the vinegar because after ebonizing some, noticed the same thing.
Click to expand...

Rachel......You're getting a lot of skepticism here, and Ill admit to being a bit skeptical myself......but, what is important, is you are using the "grey matter", and exploring possibilities.

You will find that many "experienced" turners do nothing but follow the herd playbook, and never get beyond the official approved fundamentals. Of course, there are a few who do have the fortitude to put that playbook down, and those are the ones who will find new and better ways of solving old problems. These are the ones who question authority, do a little trail blazing of their own.....and court discovery.

-----odie-----
 
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Rachel Aberle said:
You can see the bowl below isn’t overly thin.
Click to expand...
It is small and has a lovely curve. A great combination for successful drying.
I would suggest the drying success is the curve that allows the wood to move.

I have turned quite a few 3” spheres in demos using green wood to avoid dust.
They almost never crack.
 
odie said:
Rachel......You're getting a lot of skepticism here, and Ill admit to being a bit skeptical myself......but, what is important, is you are using the "grey matter", and exploring possibilities.

You will find that many "experienced" turners do nothing but follow the herd playbook, and never get beyond the official approved fundamentals. Of course, there are a few who do have the fortitude to put that playbook down, and those are the ones who will find new and better ways of solving old problems. These are the ones who question authority, do a little trail blazing of their own.....and court discovery.

-----odie-----
Click to expand...
Odie, I always appreciate your posts and comments, thank you!
 
One is an awful wet maple I turned earlier on in the year that I dried this way. Also the elm (which a mentor helped me with so I had very little hand in actually achieving that shape when I first started)

The maple bowed a bit at the pith but didn’t crack at all to the rim.

It was interesting observations and I was curious to see if anyone had done this before. I was just expecting bigger cracks and movement and was surprised and maybe they all would have turned out this way without vinegar.
3F6859E2-B16D-43EA-8E62-D409F1ECC92F.jpegAAB4474E-6D66-4167-A958-C209E23968A2.jpeg
 
Re
Rachel Aberle said:
was interesting observations and I was curious to see if anyone had done this before. I was just expecting bigger cracks and movement and was surprised and maybe they all would have turned out this way without vinegar.
Click to expand...

Regarding piths. Each growth ring wants to shrink more than the one inside it.
If you have a curve and a thin enough wall the pith can push out so that the larger ones can shrink instead of splitting

Here is a NE bowl turned from a round log. Pith in each end wall
F4944337-8CF1-46D6-8B35-1E9CB8F01268.jpeg

Side view you can se it push out - ruins the curve.
0EEB0E7D-9EA8-4F9D-BE42-A175A5C216AB.jpeg
 
Rachel, the bowl pictured in your original post has remarkably narrow growth rings. Maybe your success in drying without cracks has to do with the wood or a quality of the wood, or the size and shape and wall thickness that Al H. commented on, rather than the vinegar. Or it could be the temperature/humidity conditions this summer near the lake. It'll be interesting to see how your results turn out during the winter or with different varieties of wood or with larger sizes of bowl. There's always more to learn.
 
Well what I have found that much depends on the species and what works on one may not be so successful on another. DNA works well on Camphor Laurel but hopeless on Aussie hardwoods. Soaking in water, boiling, freezing, microwave etc I have yet to find a universal method other than time and the traditional method
 
Dean Center said:
Rachel, the bowl pictured in your original post has remarkably narrow growth rings. Maybe your success in drying without cracks has to do with the wood or a quality of the wood, or the size and shape and wall thickness that Al H. commented on, rather than the vinegar. Or it could be the temperature/humidity conditions this summer near the lake. It'll be interesting to see how your results turn out during the winter or with different varieties of wood or with larger sizes of bowl. There's always more to learn.
Click to expand...
Hi Dean! I’ve done this experiment since October 2021 in Wisconsin so have seen winter, spring and humid summers.
 
Please remember this is just an observation I’ve seen over various wood species, etc. I’m curious if anyone has tried this. My own experience has been positive but that may be my own wood selection, turning depth, and wood width. It just brought up more questions that I felt I could possibly bring to this community for discussion.
 
I did some research and found that vinegar is useful in controlling some strains of mold but not others. However it doesn’t really work on porous materials such as wood because the mold goes deep into the wood while the vinegar doesn’t penetrate very far. The main thing that stops mold is not enough moisture to support growth. When you turn the wood to final thickness, it will dry rather quickly as you have observed. If you have wood that is getting moldy then you should turn it as soon as possible.
 
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