Drum sander for segmented turning

[Mark Hepburn]

I posted this over on the SWT forum but no replies and thought maybe some folks here might have a thought or two:

I've searched the posts and so on and don't find an answer to this so I hope that a) I'm not imposing on the patience of long-time forum members, and b) I posted in the right place

I'm looking at the possibility of a small drum sander for my shop. A bit of background as to why small. I have accumulated more tools than wisdom over the years and really have little room.

My shop is 9 x 27. It currently houses my 7' miter station with a nice Bosch 10" axial glide, a 17" Grizz band saw, a G0700 Grizzly sliding table saw, a Jet belt/disc sander, a Ridgid lunchbox planer on a cart, a Delta jointer, a Jet 1642EVS, a VB36 lathe I just got, a Grizzly cyclone DC, a Ridgid floor drill press, and a downdraft table I built with an old squirrel cage motor. Just sold off some tools including a Grizzly shaper to make room for a sander. I have a tiny space adjacent to this shop to do assembly and finishing but can't put any tools in it.

Also, I'm running completely maxed out on 220V and no way can I add more without pulling a permit, bumping up the service panel and blah blah blah. So I need 110V.

Money and size are both issues at the moment. Just got that VB 36 with the short tailstock, which ends any wild and crazy spending for a long time to come, since I'm a hobbyist (and super-lucky to have a successful and highly supportive wife!) I'd say that $1000 is far beyond my current max and I know some will recommend used on Craigslist, but the stuff I find around here is junk and there is a dearth of supply in the small town of Houma, LA. Plus, I would consider this a transitional purchase to last a couple of years until I can do something about shop size and electrical capacity.

I've used lots of Grizzly products and have never had an issue with any of them. So they're on my list. So here are the questions I have and I would appreciate any help anyone would like to offer.

If I were to get the Grizzly 10" drum sander, which is open-ended but with a support bar, could i rotate segments through in multiple passes, or in half rings, to achieve a flat surface or is that just about the dumbest thing anyone here ever asked?

I was also looking at the G0458, which is like the Jet 16/32 but cheaper and does not have an oscillating action. It too is open-ended, but the table moves up and down rather than the sanding assembly. It may make outfeed tables an issue, but seems to me it won't matter at all for working with segmented rings.

There is the Grizzly G0459 baby drum sander, which is a 12" wide, closed end sander.

Then the Jet 16/32, which I have seen many people like, but that's more than I can spend, and I've seen mixed reviews on keeping the sanding drum parallel to the table.

Frankly I'm leaning toward the little $400 Grizzly because it's cheap. The reviews I've read are consistently pretty good and all I would want it for is to run the occasional board through, but mainly for segmented projects. So how limiting is this 9.5" width, given that I want to do projects that will sometimes exceed this size? But I don't want to buy a $400 paperweight either

I will eventually go with a wide belt sander or dual drum, but that's in the future. I'm thinking of something I can get utility out of for a couple of years and then pass on to a son-in-law or friend in need.'

So if anyone has any thoughts that might help they are most appreciated.

 

[R Henrickson]

Consider building your own. Luthier sites offer a lot of plans for various sizes, configurations. You can make it the size you need. I built one in a day from scrap plywood etc. Used an old furnace fan (a sander will perform fine with less power than you may be told). Given that I rescued the motor (something like 1/2 HP) from a 60-yr old furnace blower sitting on the curb, my major expense was pillow blocks. Total cost under $100.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Do you have Malcolm Tibbetts' book?

I might be misunderstanding you, so here is my interpretation --you want to have segments with a consistent thickness so you want to cut them and then run them through the drum sander/thickness planer either as individual segments or partially glued up rings. Is that the gist of it?

I am not a segmented turner, but from my flat woodworking experience, I believe that there are better ways. If your boards need to be flattened then I would first run them through a jointer. If exact thickness is critical at this stage then a planer or drum sander could be used on the board before you do any cutting. After individual segments are cut, glue them up in stages until you have half rings. Next, use a disk sander or sandpaper glued to a flat surface to square up the ends of the half rings if necessary. Glue and clamp the full rings. At least one side of the ring ought to be close to flat. Flatten that side with the sandpaper glued to the flat surface or perhaps a disk or belt sander could be used, but I might be a little wary of it being too aggressive. Glue the flat side of that ring to your assembly. Use the lathe to true the upper surface of that ring. Repeat that sequence for each ring.

I've never done any segmenting, but I saw a segmented piece once so I think that I know everything there is to know on the subject.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Consider building your own. Luthier sites offer a lot of plans for various sizes, configurations. You can make it the size you need. I built one in a day from scrap plywood etc. Used an old furnace fan (a sander will perform fine with less power than you may be told). Given that I rescued the motor (something like 1/2 HP) from a 60-yr old furnace blower sitting on the curb, my major expense was pillow blocks. Total cost under $100.

I hadn't considered that at all. I have an old furnace fan. Had a couple and built a downdraft table with one. I assume a reduction pulley assembly to drop the speed is what I'd need since the motor isn't a variable speed?

Plus it sounds like a fun project. Thanks very much!

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Do you have Malcolm Tibbetts' book?

I might be misunderstanding you, so here is my interpretation --you want to have segments with a consistent thickness so you want to cut them and then run them through the drum sander/thickness planer either as individual segments or partially glued up rings. Is that the gist of it?

I am not a segmented turner, but from my flat woodworking experience, I believe that there are better ways. If your boards need to be flattened then I would first run them through a jointer. If exact thickness is critical at this stage then a planer or drum sander could be used on the board before you do any cutting. After individual segments are cut, glue them up in stages until you have half rings. Next, use a disk sander or sandpaper glued to a flat surface to square up the ends of the half rings if necessary. Glue and clamp the full rings. At least one side of the ring ought to be close to flat. Flatten that side with the sandpaper glued to the flat surface or perhaps a disk or belt sander could be used, but I might be a little wary of it being too aggressive. Glue the flat side of that ring to your assembly. Use the lathe to true the upper surface of that ring. Repeat that sequence for each ring.

I've never done any segmenting, but I saw a segmented piece once so I think that I know everything there is to know on the subject.

Bill, if you also have a slide projector and a laser pointer (and are from out of town), then you are an expert.

I'm talking about assembled rings. I do flatten my stock on my jointer before cutting segments. Then I assemble half rings and after they are dry, I make sure they mate by finishing the two half segment faces on a disk sander.

Then I glue up the rings and use a press to put just a bit of pressure on the segment to keep it flat (a 5 lb weight). It is at this point that I have to decide how to proceed. I don't plane the rings because I find that even with small passes I can get a bit of snipe.

So my thinking is that I can get something like the Grizzly open ended unit, which will allow me to thickness/flatten rings up to say 16" but at a cost of just under $1000. Or, if the little unit will work, then I can pass half rings through separately, then assemble and make a couple more passes and rotate 90 degrees. Lot of work but I'm not on deadline and don't mind. The question is if that would even work or is it not feasible?

I have a 10" disc that I faceplate mount on my lathe to sand the ring faces, but doing it by hand does not assure that the ring thickness is consistent across all planes. So if the faces are not parallel then it shows up when the rings are being stacked.

I did think about sort of a reverse chuck adaptor with a faceplate mount for the tailstock. That way I could mount the sanding media on the headstock faceplate, and use the tailstock with a set of flat jaws to hold the work and sand that way.

But I still do some flat work and can use a thickness sander of some kind. And I do hope that next year or so I can upgrade to a serious double drum sander. I eye those wide belt sanders but for the price it's really impossible to justify.

I have Malcolm Tibbets' book and am still reading through it.

 

[Bill Boehme]

All that I can relate to would be a thickness planer and if I ran a glued up ring or half glued up ring into it, what I would get on the other end would be a bunch of chopped up segments not fit for anything. Maybe a drum sander is more gentle, but I can't envision a half ring just lying flat while a feed roller and a sanding drum are having a contest to see who gets the biggest piece of what was once a half ring. Did I mention my expertise on this subject? If I ever make it to Houma, I'll be sre to bring my Kodak Carrousel slide projector and laser pointer. I'll be the one wearing the shiny suit, plaid tie, and slicked back hair.

 

[R Henrickson]

All that I can relate to would be a thickness planer and if I ran a glued up ring or half glued up ring into it, what I would get on the other end would be a bunch of chopped up segments not fit for anything. Maybe a drum sander is more gentle, but I can't envision a half ring just lying flat while a feed roller and a sanding drum are having a contest to see who gets the biggest piece of what was once a half ring. Did I mention my expertise on this subject? If I ever make it to Houma, I'll be sre to bring my Kodak Carrousel slide projector and laser pointer. I'll be the one wearing the shiny suit, plaid tie, and slicked back hair.

I've run glued-up rings through my homemade sander -- no problems, though the diameter and thickness of the particular ring (thinner and wider) might have some effect.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

All that I can relate to would be a thickness planer and if I ran a glued up ring or half glued up ring into it, what I would get on the other end would be a bunch of chopped up segments not fit for anything. Maybe a drum sander is more gentle, but I can't envision a half ring just lying flat while a feed roller and a sanding drum are having a contest to see who gets the biggest piece of what was once a half ring. Did I mention my expertise on this subject? If I ever make it to Houma, I'll be sre to bring my Kodak Carrousel slide projector and laser pointer. I'll be the one wearing the shiny suit, plaid tie, and slicked back hair.

That's exactly how I dress when I'm doing my on the road dog and pony shows!

You're right about the planer, which is why I don't want to use it. And as to the half ring, you have arrived at a truth that eluded me. Duh. I can't imagine the ring lying flat either. Scratch that.

Mr. Henrickson suggested a home built and I'm really starting to warm to the idea.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

plans

Mark there are several plans on the net for drum sanders of every description.
http://cherrywoodcustom.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/homemade-drum-sander/ and this is just one of them. I at one time had a link to a plan for something called a V drum sander and there was a company that would sell the parts.
Basically just google it and there are many out there. I think Shopsmith had a very interesting plan also and maybe Wood Magazine.

 

[Jerry Bailey]

Mark, I didn't see you question "over there" so will answer here

I currently have the Jet Drum Sander, Model 16-32 Plus Package
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2002042/9875/Jet-Drum-Sander-Model-16-32-Plus-Package.aspx

I started out with the smaller version as a test:
JET Benchtop Sander Model 10-20 Plus
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2004943/2381/JET-Benchtop-Sander-Model-10-20-Plus.aspx

I had concerns about using a cantilevered type set-up, but was happy enough with the 10-20 that I sold it and upgraded to the 16-32
The 16-32 will do a piece as wide as 16" normally, and 31" if you "rotate it"
I will not be doing any rings larger than 16" so it's perfect for me.
I usually run a piece thru 3-4 times, rotating each time just in case there's a tolerance issue (which I have yet to see)
Pre-cut replacement rolls usually run about $50 for a box of 4, so not that bad.
I usually sand with 150 or 180 ............

I've been using it on different projects so far, but will using it for 1st segmented work next week.
Honestly, it's a machine I cannot/will not do without.
My planer gets minimal usage for obtaining rough thickness, but the drum sander has taken it's place for the rest of the process.
1/4 turn each pass (full turn is 1/16") and the results are great.

There are many posts/threads both here and "there" with mixed reviews.
IMHO, as long as you take the appropriate time to set-up and tune everything in, you will be a happy camper.

As for building your own, it's possible, but one where you don't want to cut corners on design and/or tolerances
Else you've just wasted your time/money/ and wood sanding things unevenly ..............

 

[Jerry Bailey]

I'll be the one wearing the shiny suit, plaid tie, and slicked back hair.

What ???? No pocket protector ????

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark, I didn't see you question "over there" so will answer here

I currently have the Jet Drum Sander, Model 16-32 Plus Package
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2002042/9875/Jet-Drum-Sander-Model-16-32-Plus-Package.aspx

I started out with the smaller version as a test:
JET Benchtop Sander Model 10-20 Plus
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2004943/2381/JET-Benchtop-Sander-Model-10-20-Plus.aspx

I had concerns about using a cantilevered type set-up, but was happy enough with the 10-20 that I sold it and upgraded to the 16-32
The 16-32 will do a piece as wide as 16" normally, and 31" if you "rotate it"
I will not be doing any rings larger than 16" so it's perfect for me.
I usually run a piece thru 3-4 times, rotating each time just in case there's a tolerance issue (which I have yet to see)
Pre-cut replacement rolls usually run about $50 for a box of 4, so not that bad.
I usually sand with 150 or 180 ............

I've been using it on different projects so far, but will using it for 1st segmented work next week.
Honestly, it's a machine I cannot/will not do without.
My planer gets minimal usage for obtaining rough thickness, but the drum sander has taken it's place for the rest of the process.
1/4 turn each pass (full turn is 1/16") and the results are great.

There are many posts/threads both here and "there" with mixed reviews.
IMHO, as long as you take the appropriate time to set-up and tune everything in, you will be a happy camper.

As for building your own, it's possible, but one where you don't want to cut corners on design and/or tolerances
Else you've just wasted your time/money/ and wood sanding things unevenly ..............

Hi Jerry.

I posted in Jigs and Fixtures so maybe nobody saw it. Or maybe I'm wearing out my welcome

I do like the Jet 16/32 and if I thought I was buying something for the long haul then that would be okay. Are you happy enough with yours that you think of it as a permanent fixture in your shop? I know that you do a lot of work other than turning, and I do a small bit also. The thing for me is, as you say, I don't want to cut corners on a critical part of the segmenting process.

I personally don't have a problem with taking tiny passes multiple times to get the result. If I want to hog off a bunch of wood, I'll plane it. So I'd say that if the tools is reliable and stable, it's likely to stay dialed in in my shop (that doesn't sound arrogant at all, does it?).

You're making me think twice again about buying. I've been looking at plans and it doesn't look like a huge deal to make one but still, I would rather spend time improve my turning skills as compared to making tools, as fun as stuff like that can be.

By the way, does the Jet use the velcro back paper, or the clips I hear about (but have never seen either)?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

What ???? No pocket protector ????

"We don't need no stinking pockets!"

I do have a dial thermometer, an orange mechanical pencil and a felt tip pen.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark there are several plans on the net for drum sanders of every description.
http://cherrywoodcustom.wordpress.com/2012/05/05/homemade-drum-sander/ and this is just one of them. I at one time had a link to a plan for something called a V drum sander and there was a company that would sell the parts.
Basically just google it and there are many out there. I think Shopsmith had a very interesting plan also and maybe Wood Magazine.

Hi Gerald.

That's a pretty easy looking build. I noted in the plans that he made the drum of a bunch of turned discs, laminated them and then ran sandpaper on a board under it until it was smooth. The obvious benefit being that the drum was completely parallel to the table (assuming he used flat stock for the sanding sled).

I'll go back through my SHop notes and Wood magazines too. Hadn't thought of that. Buy or build? Buy or build? Tough decision.

Mark

 

[Jerry Bailey]

Mark, highly doubt you've worn out your welcome, those guys are just as amicable as these guys
I am very happy with the 16-32, and disappointed I didn't get one sooner
took a couple hours dialing it in, and it has reduced my workload by 60% minimal
and yessir, it is a permanent fixture in my shop, and one that will get used on a regular basis.
It uses regular paper rolls (no velcro) and attaches with clips within the roller.
takes me about 2 minutes max to change out, and that's only because I also vacuum everything clean, and clean the roller.
The clips are a bit of a pain, but easy to get used to.
To me, the velcro types will have a tolerance issue, as it is "spongy" type material, so I stayed away from those kinds...
Building is fun, but for a machine like this tolerances are critical, so that choice is yours .........
Like you, I'd rather be turning, or building some "real" project

Hi Jerry.

I posted in Jigs and Fixtures so maybe nobody saw it. Or maybe I'm wearing out my welcome

I do like the Jet 16/32 and if I thought I was buying something for the long haul then that would be okay. Are you happy enough with yours that you think of it as a permanent fixture in your shop? I know that you do a lot of work other than turning, and I do a small bit also. The thing for me is, as you say, I don't want to cut corners on a critical part of the segmenting process.

I personally don't have a problem with taking tiny passes multiple times to get the result. If I want to hog off a bunch of wood, I'll plane it. So I'd say that if the tools is reliable and stable, it's likely to stay dialed in in my shop (that doesn't sound arrogant at all, does it?).

You're making me think twice again about buying. I've been looking at plans and it doesn't look like a huge deal to make one but still, I would rather spend time improve my turning skills as compared to making tools, as fun as stuff like that can be.

By the way, does the Jet use the velcro back paper, or the clips I hear about (but have never seen either)?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark, highly doubt you've worn out your welcome, those guys are just as amicable as these guys
I am very happy with the 16-32, and disappointed I didn't get one sooner
took a couple hours dialing it in, and it has reduced my workload by 60% minimal
and yessir, it is a permanent fixture in my shop, and one that will get used on a regular basis.
It uses regular paper rolls (no velcro) and attaches with clips within the roller.
takes me about 2 minutes max to change out, and that's only because I also vacuum everything clean, and clean the roller.
The clips are a bit of a pain, but easy to get used to.
To me, the velcro types will have a tolerance issue, as it is "spongy" type material, so I stayed away from those kinds...
Building is fun, but for a machine like this tolerances are critical, so that choice is yours .........
Like you, I'd rather be turning, or building some "real" project

Thanks Jerry.

I'm about convinced to go with a Jet. I hadn't thought about the give in a velcro backed roll, but makes sense. You want a firm platen with steady, even pressure and no give, right?

So this means a short wait but if I end up going that route sounds like it'll be worth it. Much appreciated.

Mark

 

[Jerry Bailey]

You're right Mark, I do other things than turning, some that require tolerances of 1/32 - 1/64" ( my personal quality control)
and they require crisp clean edges/corners.
To me, velcro (hook & loop combination) could have up to a 1/16" Intolerance, and giving your rounded edges/corners
So yes, firm, aligned platten and roller, with even pressure is a necessity.
I think the wait and investment would be well worth it, and beneficial is it's 110v system, so works within your parameters.
Good luck whichever way you decide to proceed

Thanks Jerry.

I'm about convinced to go with a Jet. I hadn't thought about the give in a velcro backed roll, but makes sense. You want a firm platen with steady, even pressure and no give, right?

So this means a short wait but if I end up going that route sounds like it'll be worth it. Much appreciated.

Mark

 

[Bill Boehme]

I hadn't considered a sled. I was thinking that a feed roller was needed which in a planer applies considerable pressure. Jerry, it sounds like you only run full rings through the sander which sounds like a better plan than partial rings.

 

[Jerry Bailey]

technically Bill, you do have a feed roller .......
a moving "belt" on bottom (with a solid base beneath the belt), with a turning sanding drum on top, and a pressure bar on each side of drum
recommended minimal length material is 5" for feeding, so it contacts both pressure rollers, ensuring there's no "snipe" like a planer.
I'm generally running pieces that are 36-52"+ in length thru it, so everything is consistent/clean, and very time saving.
And yessir, definitely running full rings through and rotating in several passes,
1/2 rings, or partial rings, there's no way to control movement/hold down and would end up with unequal sanding.

I hadn't considered a sled. I was thinking that a feed roller was needed which in a planer applies considerable pressure. Jerry, it sounds like you only run full rings through the sander which sounds like a better plan than partial rings.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Thanks everyone for their input. I'm going to wait a month or so, reevaluate and likely decide to purchase rather than build.

And thanks also to you all for not pointing out that running half rings through is a half-$#@ idea!

 

[Michelle Rich]

OK, as the "oddwoman-out" here, I do have many yrs of experience with segmentations. First you need no sander..really. On your lathe make a 12 inch disc ( or the limit of your lathe)with sandpaper...take your glue-ups and flatten the bottom..then glue to your segmentation. Now, after that is dry, & if it is real lumpy, use a turning tool to flatten it. (if it is real lumpy, you need more skill glueing up) If not real lumpy, use a nice 3-4 inch wide board, longer than your project is in diameter,apply sticky backed sandpaper, and use it to and sand . You have now spend $2.00. This process has worked for me for decades.
Now that being said..a sander that you wish to buy is a great tool for a shop. If you can afford one, buy one.

 

[Jerry Bailey]

Michelle is absolutely correct, if all you're doing is flattening segmented rings then that's the easiest approach, and a lot easier on your wallet

OK, as the "oddwoman-out" here, I do have many yrs of experience with segmentations. First you need no sander..really. On your lathe make a 12 inch disc ( or the limit of your lathe)with sandpaper...take your glue-ups and flatten the bottom..then glue to your segmentation. Now, after that is dry, & if it is real lumpy, use a turning tool to flatten it. (if it is real lumpy, you need more skill glueing up) If not real lumpy, use a nice 3-4 inch wide board, longer than your project is in diameter,apply sticky backed sandpaper, and use it to and sand . You have now spend $2.00. This process has worked for me for decades.
Now that being said..a sander that you wish to buy is a great tool for a shop. If you can afford one, buy one.

 

[john lucas]

I don't do a much segmented turning any more but have tried a lot of different methods for flattening rings.
i do now have an older model Performax drum sander and it works well once I tuned it up. In the early days I made my own drum sander by turning a spindle and gluing sandpaper to it. I made a platten out of 2 boards hinged at the bottom and a screw adjustment that made this wedge shape package into a sort of thickness adjuster. this was mounted on the lathe and the lathe drove the drum. Even though I put formica on the top board and kept it waxed it wore out my fingertips feeding rings through. Worked but not that efficient.
When I glue up rings I first put them on my flat formica covered and waxed board. When I put the ring clamps on I hammer all the segments flat with a dead blow hammer. This gets one side really flat. I'll usually wipe off all glue squeeze out and flip the ring over and do the same hammering and wipe off excess glue. Then put that ring up to dry. It's usually flat enough that I can take a 2x4 that's been jointed and had sandpaper glued to it and hand flatten the ring. I make a few quick passes around the ring and check for low spots. If I don't see any i check it with a straight edge. Usually it only takes a few tracks around the ring to flatten it.
Another method I use is to remove the table from my 12" disc sander and hold the ring against the whole disc. This works pretty well but if you don't do it right you can end up with a slightly curved surface. This method or the method I listed above doesn't work to flatten both sides. It's too easy to make it wedge shaped. I usually use these methods when I'm going to glue each ring onto the stack already on the lathe. Then I will true up the outside surface after the ring is glued onto the stack with a bowl gouge or scraper as necessary. Did it this way for many years until I got the perfomax. It's slower but very accurate.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

OK, as the "oddwoman-out" here, I do have many yrs of experience with segmentations. First you need no sander..really. On your lathe make a 12 inch disc ( or the limit of your lathe)with sandpaper...take your glue-ups and flatten the bottom..then glue to your segmentation. Now, after that is dry, & if it is real lumpy, use a turning tool to flatten it. (if it is real lumpy, you need more skill glueing up) If not real lumpy, use a nice 3-4 inch wide board, longer than your project is in diameter,apply sticky backed sandpaper, and use it to and sand . You have now spend $2.00. This process has worked for me for decades.
Now that being said..a sander that you wish to buy is a great tool for a shop. If you can afford one, buy one.

Well, Michelle, that puts you in good company, and it reminds me of Odie (who has also given me VERY GOOD counsel since I joined the forum).

But when you're really good at what you do then you march to the beat of your own drum, right? Speaking of which (being really good), it's hard for me to decide which I admire more - your segmented turnings or your chairs. That Windsor chair in particular made mostly with hand tools. Beautiful.

So I'm going to use your approach and if I find I really just have to have another tool then....

So if I may, a few questions:

My lathe has a 16" swing so I could easily accommodate the size of rings I'm contemplating. I can permanently mount an extra faceplate to the disc and maybe put a surface on it that will work for easier removal of the sanding media? Perhaps a laminate face maybe? I don't have any experience with this but know I'll need to change sanding media on the disc at times.

Would it make sense to chuck my flat jaws on the tailstock and lock it down to hold the rings? I can see it won't work for very thin rings but trying to sort out how to present the face of the ring to the sanding disc. Alternatively, could I perhaps mount a blank disc on the tailstock also, then hot glue the ring in a place or two to hold it while I sand the face?

I like the idea of using stuff laying around the shop for now, while I seriously ponder my sanding equipment needs (and my tool junkie habit).

Thanks!

Mark

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I don't do a much segmented turning any more but have tried a lot of different methods for flattening rings.
i do now have an older model Performax drum sander and it works well once I tuned it up. In the early days I made my own drum sander by turning a spindle and gluing sandpaper to it. I made a platten out of 2 boards hinged at the bottom and a screw adjustment that made this wedge shape package into a sort of thickness adjuster. this was mounted on the lathe and the lathe drove the drum. Even though I put formica on the top board and kept it waxed it wore out my fingertips feeding rings through. Worked but not that efficient.
When I glue up rings I first put them on my flat formica covered and waxed board. When I put the ring clamps on I hammer all the segments flat with a dead blow hammer. This gets one side really flat. I'll usually wipe off all glue squeeze out and flip the ring over and do the same hammering and wipe off excess glue. Then put that ring up to dry. It's usually flat enough that I can take a 2x4 that's been jointed and had sandpaper glued to it and hand flatten the ring. I make a few quick passes around the ring and check for low spots. If I don't see any i check it with a straight edge. Usually it only takes a few tracks around the ring to flatten it.
Another method I use is to remove the table from my 12" disc sander and hold the ring against the whole disc. This works pretty well but if you don't do it right you can end up with a slightly curved surface. This method or the method I listed above doesn't work to flatten both sides. It's too easy to make it wedge shaped. I usually use these methods when I'm going to glue each ring onto the stack already on the lathe. Then I will true up the outside surface after the ring is glued onto the stack with a bowl gouge or scraper as necessary. Did it this way for many years until I got the perfomax. It's slower but very accurate.

John,

I tried that disc sander method but I only have a 10" disc and like you I found that I end with a slightly curved - or out of parallel - surface. Not to mention I have fewer fingerprints these days

So you use ring clamps and assemble the rings whole, or do you do half rings and then clamp them? I'm doing half ring segments, adjusting fit on the sander then glue up. I use a formica countertop for the assembly also, but do I understand that you wax it too? So you have literally no glue sticking to the formica and no resistance when you pull up a ring, right? I've just been using a thin spatula to lift the rings so I don't cause them to pull apart or deform.

I see lots of very high opinions of the performax and i know that Malcolm Tibbets also uses one. Of course, he can probably pay for one with a single piece, and plus some of his work is thousands of pieces. Still, it's one to think about.

 

[Bill Boehme]

OK, as the "oddwoman-out" here, I do have many yrs of experience with segmentations. First you need no sander..really. On your lathe make a 12 inch disc ( or the limit of your lathe)with sandpaper...take your glue-ups and flatten the bottom..then glue to your segmentation. Now, after that is dry, & if it is real lumpy, use a turning tool to flatten it. (if it is real lumpy, you need more skill glueing up) If not real lumpy, use a nice 3-4 inch wide board, longer than your project is in diameter,apply sticky backed sandpaper, and use it to and sand . You have now spend $2.00. This process has worked for me for decades.
Now that being said..a sander that you wish to buy is a great tool for a shop. If you can afford one, buy one.

Before sanding, I would recommend turning away any squeeze out before sanding. Glue lumps just don't behave well when sanding.

 

[Jerry Bailey]

another way to keep your fingerprints ......
get yourself a 20" sanding disc, spray adhesive to a board, and gently hand sand 1 surface flat (rotating of course) that will be glued to your other rings
I use a corian cut-out from a countertop as a gluing surface, have issues with using a waxed surface
as I've seen where the wax interferes (absorbs into the wood) with gluing/finishing afterwards.
Else, use wax paper on your surface.......

I can't see trying to hold a ring onto a spinning lathe/sanding disc manually and getting a flat/even surface without one end being fatter than the other ...
and as Bill sez, always wipe excessive glue from your joints before it dries so you have minimal to sand.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Before sanding, I would recommend turning away any squeeze out before sanding. Glue lumps just don't behave well when sanding.

Agreed. I wipe the excess off and then put. Small weight on the ring so just in case it wants to flex while drying it will sty relatively flat. Jus. 5 lb weight or two depending on size.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

another way to keep your fingerprints ......
get yourself a 20" sanding disc, spray adhesive to a board, and gently hand sand 1 surface flat (rotating of course) that will be glued to your other rings
I use a corian cut-out from a countertop as a gluing surface, have issues with using a waxed surface
as I've seen where the wax interferes (absorbs into the wood) with gluing/finishing afterwards.
Else, use wax paper on your surface.......

I can't see trying to hold a ring onto a spinning lathe/sanding disc manually and getting a flat/even surface without one end being fatter than the other ...
and as Bill sez, always wipe excessive glue from your joints before it dries so you have minimal to sand.

Corian sounds like a good idea. Stable too. And countertop cut outs are probably free somewhere around here

I see what you mean about the wax too. Hadn't thought of that bit it does have the potential to cause a poor joint

 

[Bill Boehme]

.... I can't see trying to hold a ring onto a spinning lathe/sanding disc manually and getting a flat/even surface without one end being fatter than the other ...

I started to make the same comment. To me, it would be comparable to using a jointer to flatten both faces of a plank and then expecting them to be parallel.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I started to make the same comment. To me, it would be comparable to using a jointer to flatten both faces of a plank and then expecting them to be parallel.

And feeding the plank with the palm of your hand. Ouch.

What I'm talking about is taking Michelle's point, making a sanding disc for the headstock on a face plate, and then:

1. Mount a set of cole jaws on a chuck, then mount with my reverse adapter onto the tailstock.
2 Lock down the adapter into the tailstock to hold the piece stationary, and then advance the tailstock, with mounted ring segment, into the sanding disc.
3. Reverse the workpiece, sand the other face.

Assuming I did a decent job of assembling the ring and had no excess glue on the surface, wouldn't flipping the ring and repeating on the other side result in a perfectly flat - and parallel -ring segment?

And safely?

 

[Jerry Bailey]

That process sounds completely acceptable to me,
actually you just need to flatten 1 surface, glue it to your other rings, then sand/flatten the outer surface
But, both processes would work , and the gov't can still track you via your fingerprints

And feeding the plank with the palm of your hand. Ouch.

What I'm talking about is taking Michelle's point, making a sanding disc for the headstock on a face plate, and then:

1. Mount a set of cole jaws on a chuck, then mount with my reverse adapter onto the tailstock.
2 Lock down the adapter into the tailstock to hold the piece stationary, and then advance the tailstock, with mounted ring segment, into the sanding disc.
3. Reverse the workpiece, sand the other face.

Assuming I did a decent job of assembling the ring and had no excess glue on the surface, wouldn't flipping the ring and repeating on the other side result in a perfectly flat - and parallel -ring segment?

And safely?

 

[Mark Hepburn]

That process sounds completely acceptable to me,
actually you just need to flatten 1 surface, glue it to your other rings, then sand/flatten the outer surface
But, both processes would work , and the gov't can still track you via your fingerprints

And with those beams and microwaves they transmit. But I've got my foil hat on and took the RFID chips out of my credit cards.

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

I think someone mentioned a V-drum sander - I have one of the 18" Flatmaster sanders that would work for the task: http://stockroomsupply.ca/shop/drum-sanders.html

These are very nice to use and pretty gentle on the work and you (as sanders go).

 

[john lucas]

Mark I've used Johnson's paste wax for years doing this and never had a problem. I wipe it on, let is set and then wipe it off. I use it for all my metal machine tops, jointers, planers, etc. Never had a problem with it and finishing my wood or gluing.
There is another option that I use occasionally and it will be in an upcoming article in American Woodturner on turning half ring candleholders. I take a flat disc and simply hot glue the ring to the disc. Then I flatten the one surface. If necessary I an then true up the big disc and glue the ring on with the good side down and flatten the other side. I do this occasionally when I glue up a thick ring and then cut it in half on the bandsaw to get 2 thin rings. I just put some hot glue around the edges in about 8 places with the ring sitting flat on the board with it off the lathe. Not the fastest method but works great for some things.
I try very hard to get my segments cut and not do the half ring thing. However reality being what it is I'll cut 10 rings and at least 3 will not fit perfectly and have to do the half ring thing. What I don't like about the half ring is that it can easily throw off the alignment of some elements because the ring will be slightly oval before you start truing it up. This can make some elements not line up properly.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark I've used Johnson's paste wax for years doing this and never had a problem. I wipe it on, let is set and then wipe it off. I use it for all my metal machine tops, jointers, planers, etc. Never had a problem with it and finishing my wood or gluing.
There is another option that I use occasionally and it will be in an upcoming article in American Woodturner on turning half ring candleholders. I take a flat disc and simply hot glue the ring to the disc. Then I flatten the one surface. If necessary I an then true up the big disc and glue the ring on with the good side down and flatten the other side. I do this occasionally when I glue up a thick ring and then cut it in half on the bandsaw to get 2 thin rings. I just put some hot glue around the edges in about 8 places with the ring sitting flat on the board with it off the lathe. Not the fastest method but works great for some things.
I try very hard to get my segments cut and not do the half ring thing. However reality being what it is I'll cut 10 rings and at least 3 will not fit perfectly and have to do the half ring thing. What I don't like about the half ring is that it can easily throw off the alignment of some elements because the ring will be slightly oval before you start truing it up. This can make some elements not line up properly.

John, is there any difference between the Johnson's and minwax do you think? I have a really old -or should I call it vintage - can of minwax that I never use.

I am not at the point where my segments are precise enough. I see the effect on the finished ring but still working out accuracy issues. Bit your method sounds easy and safe to use so I think among you and Jerry and Michelle I have gotten a big help. Thanks!

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I think someone mentioned a V-drum sander - I have one of the 18" Flatmaster sanders that would work for the task: http://stockroomsupply.ca/shop/drum-sanders.html

These are very nice to use and pretty gentle on the work and you (as sanders go).

Doug, how would you say it is to use as compared with other sanders?

 

[Douglas Ladendorf]

Doug, how would you say it is to use as compared with other sanders?

The table is pretty small compared to other machines and I think that more than anything else scares people off these. I haven't found it to be a problem at all but I use it for smaller flat work. Haven't tried it for segments but after scraping off glue should be fine. You avoid some problems by not squeezing it between a sanding drum and surface, and because the paper lifts off the drum slightly it doesn't load nearly as much and stays cooler. I enjoy using it and get a good surface. When I try segmented turning I will try this and my 12" disk but I keep 80 or 100 grit on the disk so it may be a bit too aggressive. I think I last used 120 on the drum and got what I was looking for.

 

[Bill Boehme]

John, is there any difference between the Johnson's and minwax do you think? I have a really old -or should I call it vintage - can of minwax that I never use....

Sell it on eBay.

Seriously, I haven't tried Minwax, but I have used Johnson's Paste Wax, Briwax, and Trewax. My favorite of the three is Johnson's. My problem with the other two is that they are only good for use on wood and not other things. For use on wood, I would still prefer Johnson's.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Sell it on eBay.

Seriously, I haven't tried Minwax, but I have used Johnson's Paste Wax, Briwax, and Trewax. My favorite of the three is Johnson's. My problem with the other two is that they are only good for use on wood and not other things. For use on wood, I would still prefer Johnson's.

Posted on eBay:

Vintage Minwax. When opened the wax inside looks like a profile of Jim Morrison. Any bids?

I knew there was a reason I don't use that stuff.