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Face Shield part 2

Michael Nathal

Michael Nathal

Joined
Jul 5, 2015
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Location
Strongsville, Ohio
You may remember I started a thread last December on face shields, and why you should wear one. I was looking for examples of turners who either benefited by wearing a face shield, or accidents made much worse when no face shield was worn. There were many interesting and useful comments on that thread. When I saw Karl Loeblein’s recent post that someone in his club died after being hit with a chunk of wood, I was curious to the details. Karl referred me to the unfortunate case of Joan Kelly, and I found a brief mention of her accident in the August 2011 issue of American Woodturner. There are also some forum threads both on AAW and Sawmill Creek. Of the details I have found, she was hit in the head by a large chunk of wood from a large bowl blank that broke apart. But, germane to my prior thread, I wanted to find out if she was using safety gear. I found 2 conflicting accounts, one said she was wearing a face shield and another said she wasn't. I was hoping some of you might be aware of more details.
 
Lynn Yamaguchi says something to the order of, if you don't want someone hitting you in your face protection with a ball peen hammer, it's not good enough.
 
I recall that incident very well. It was Joan's death that made me take serious pause in how I spent my money on woodturning accessories. I turned on a 2436 3hp Oneway lathe, I used JoHannes Michelsen's gouges, handles, and sharpening systems, my chainsaws were all Stihl, and my carvers were made by NSK (both pneumatic and electric). It's pretty obvious I had no issue with spending money on my woodturning, as this is all top of the line equipment. Yet I was expecting a $50 piece of plastic to save my life when something came off the lathe. That's when I started wearing an Airstream Helmet. I found it on EBay, at first only the helmet with the heavy duty lexan face shield. About 6 months later, my husband found someone selling a bunch of belt type Hepa filters, batteries, hoses and a 5-bay smart charger. What retailed if bought individually would have run about $3-4,000 he got for $250.

As for whether Joan was wearing a face shield, I spoke with one of her friends and fellow club member at the Symposium later that summer. While Joan did wear a face shield, at the TIME of the incident, she did not have it on. The wood she was turning was a large red cedar bowl blank. It separated into 2 or 3 large chunks while the lathe was spinning. That's pieced together based on the seriousness of the impact and injury she sustained. She was alone at the time of the incident; her husband found her on the shop floor, unconscious.
 
Donna Banfield said:
I recall that incident very well. It was Joan's death that made me take serious pause in how I spent my money on woodturning accessories. I turned on a 2436 3hp Oneway lathe, I used JoHannes Michelsen's gouges, handles, and sharpening systems, my chainsaws were all Stihl, and my carvers were made by NSK (both pneumatic and electric). It's pretty obvious I had no issue with spending money on my woodturning, as this is all top of the line equipment. Yet I was expecting a $50 piece of plastic to save my life when something came off the lathe. That's when I started wearing an Airstream Helmet. I found it on EBay, at first only the helmet with the heavy duty lexan face shield. About 6 months later, my husband found someone selling a bunch of belt type Hepa filters, batteries, hoses and a 5-bay smart charger. What retailed if bought individually would have run about $3-4,000 he got for $250.

As for whether Joan was wearing a face shield, I spoke with one of her friends and fellow club member at the Symposium later that summer. While Joan did wear a face shield, at the TIME of the incident, she did not have it on. The wood she was turning was a large red cedar bowl blank. It separated into 2 or 3 large chunks while the lathe was spinning. That's pieced together based on the seriousness of the impact and injury she sustained. She was alone at the time of the incident; her husband found her on the shop floor, unconscious.
Click to expand...

I know it’s not impact rated, but I still wonder if a $30 Uvex helmet might have blunted enough of the impact to have saved Joan’s life. Makes me wonder what is the worst accident sustained to the head while wearing a Uvex helmet while turning.
 
Tim Tucker said:
Karl - I think the real away is: WHY are we O.K. with only sanding $50 on our health - possibly our life...? Especially in view of the amount of money we spend on all o the other things we buy in this hobby/endeavor...?
Click to expand...

Exactly!
 
Tim Tucker said:
Karl - I think the real away is: WHY are we O.K. with only sanding $50 on our health - possibly our life...? Especially in view of the amount of money we spend on all o the other things we buy in this hobby/endeavor...?
Click to expand...

Many turners want something between “it’s better than nothing” or very expensive. There’s just not much to choose from in between unless you luck upon something used.
 
Yes , what is the next step up from the uvex face shield almost everybody wears. I wear it and have often thought of how flimsy it really is, and how much it would protect us. If a bowl blank came off large and hit you in head i don’t think it would do much in way of protecting you.
 
It's not just the face shield as it is over a 1/4" of Lexan and it is heavy, it's also the helmet with chin straps. Believe me a riot helmet is not the most comfortable headgear for turning. I have also tried a hockey helmet after all if it can take an input from a hard rubber hockey puck at 80mph it should protect from wood. Trouble is it only has half a face mask and unless you like eating chips you need another mask. Those two experiments now hang on the wall. What works best is turning good solid wood and staying out of the line of fire. I'm sure many have thought "hmm I wonder how deep that bark inclusion goes?".
 
Glenn Lefley said:
I wonder if you could take the replacement shield for the riot helmet and fit it onto the bionic shield most of us have?
View attachment 36314
Click to expand...

Like Bill says, the riot helmet is not just a Lexan shield, but a helmut engineered to support that shield and disipate impact energy.

Anybody ever look at using baseball masks for umpires and catchers that have padding along the periphery of the mask around the face?
 
I am really looking for an alternative to my cheap bionic mask. I looki in my wood room, which is the whole basement almost, and 75 percent of my woods are maple Burl, with inclusions, etc. After reading above articles, and I’ve taken numerous classes from Jimmy Clewes, faster is better. It has me thinking. It only takes one piece of wood.
 
Bill Blasic said:
It's not just the face shield as it is over a 1/4" of Lexan and it is heavy, it's also the helmet with chin straps. Believe me a riot helmet is not the most comfortable headgear for turning. I have also tried a hockey helmet after all if it can take an input from a hard rubber hockey puck at 80mph it should protect from wood. Trouble is it only has half a face mask and unless you like eating chips you need another mask. Those two experiments now hang on the wall. What works best is turning good solid wood and staying out of the line of fire. I'm sure many have thought "hmm I wonder how deep that bark inclusion goes?".
Click to expand...

Right you are, Bill! :D

I've walked the same path, with the hockey helmet, riot shield, and ladies softball faceshield.

The riot shield, I attached to a regular face shield headgear. It'll take a wallop, but it's uncomfortably heavy. It can be used with my resp-o-rator.

The women's softball face guard was modified with extra cross bars, and gives a sense of security. It will stop a heavy chunk of wood. It's fairly comfortable, and will fit under the bionic shield, but can't be used with my resp-o-rator.

The hockey helmet is gone......wouldn't wear it, even if I still had it, for the same reasons you mention.

I only occasionally use the riot shield, and the softball face guard. I have to have a bit of "pucker factor" to think about using them. o_O

The best advice I've ever had, was the line-of-fire thing. I am constantly thinking about that as I turn, but you know it's difficult to adhere to that 100% of the time. I guess the very nature of woodturning, means you can reduce the possibility of getting hurt, but it's darn near impossible to completely eliminate any risk to it.

-----odie-----

IMG_1078.JPG IMG_0627.JPG IMG_0408.JPG
 
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Glenn Lefley said:
Is this the riot shield on a bionic mask? When you say heavy, do you mean out of balance heavy or just plan heavy? I often wondered about a sheet of lexan View attachment 36320 between me and the lathe to protect the face!

@odie
Click to expand...

Glenn...... I purchased the riot shield on eBay, without the headgear/helmet it was intended to attach to. Prior to buying my Uvex Bionic shield, I had a standard faceshield. Here is the faceshield I used the headgear for installing the riot shield.
IMG_0625.JPG
Yes, the riot shield is very heavy. Must be a couple of pounds by itself. It's noticeable when you turn your head, and the headband tends to slip downward on your forehead.....so, you need to readjust it from time to time. (....unless you crank down on the headband adjustment, which I don't care to do.)

-----odie-----
 
Odie brings up another point that also occured to me. The perfect face protection isn't so perfect if when wearing it you're unable to protect your lungs.

I wear a PAPR helmut and actual safety glasses. That's about all I can do.

The last comment I'll make is to ask those that have them, what about the lathe's built in safety cage?
 
For ideal protection you're going to be better off with a CNC lathe enclosed in a sturdy containment box. Neither handling pointy, sharp metal objects nor blocks of material spinning at high rates can be done in in inherently safe way. The safety gurus will tell you that PPE is the last line of defense and that you're much better off redesigning the work process to eliminate the hazard than to depend on PPE.

Most face shields don't protect the larynx area, probably a serious shortcoming.

All that said, a life-threatening impact seems rare enough to fall into the "freak accident" class of events (vastly lower probability than, say, getting struck by lightning, I would guess), compared to the omnipresent danger of eye injury from flying material or more insidious long term damage from wood dust. So I'm not going to stop turning, and will use the best PPE consistent with being able to enjoy what I'm doing. My ancient Airmate with the yellow hard hat has taken a few knocks (during demolition projects, never while turning) and is getting a little creaky. When I replace it, it will be with a similar, more modern unit, that I would expect to protect me against 99.999% of likely impacts.
 
I bought a standard face shield when I started turning years ago. Honestly didn’t use it very much after the first couple months. I am very careful about starting at low speeds, and staying out of the line of fire. Fortunately, there have been a couple times where ‘the little voice in my head’ told me to put the mask on, and it saved me from bouncing a knot off of my face :)

The PM3520 I bought 15yrs ago came with the cage. I NEVER used it, and after storing it and moving it for 10+ yrs I finally threw it in the trash a few years ago.

My story does have a good ending though. After thinking I should be wearing a shield more, AND thinking about dust protection; I purchased a Peke CleanAir this past summer. This PAPR uses a bionic (or similar) face mask. It’s comfortable enough that I’ve become accustomed to ALWAYS wearing it (I walked up to my lathe yesterday without it and felt naked and went and found it before I started).

The thin polycarbonate doesn’t feel like it would stop a hammer, but I’m pretty sure it would deflect a bowl if I threw it into my face. Frankly more importantly for my health is the fact I no longer blow stuff into Kleenex after turning sessions, and I do always have a face mask on which I didn’t for years...
 
So a riot helmet will provide better protection than a standard Z87+ face shield. But not if it is sitting on a shelf. The evidence is overwhelming that standard face shields are effective protection. It is true that a standard face shield cannot protect you from every possible impact. Just like a seatbelt does not guarantee you will survive a car crash. But face shields will provide at least partial protection from large chunks, and much more protection from modest-sized chunks, and from glancing blows rather than direct hits. The presence of a face shield can be the difference between a bloody nose and a trip to the emergency room. Reading the string from my earlier thread will provide numerous examples of people glad they were wearing a face shield, and examples of serious consequences to those who were not wearing one. In fact, in all my research, I have failed to find an example where a standard face shield did NOT provide substantial protection. Even in the Lynn Yamaguchi case, I have no doubt that her discussion of the physics is 100% accurate. But we will never know how bad her injuries would have been with a standard face shield.

One final point, I found many examples where pieces broke apart on the lathe without any tool contact whatsoever. So a face shield should be worn at all times, even when sanding. And I echo the emphasis on dust protection mentioned by others.
 
Michael Nathal said:
So a riot helmet will provide better protection than a standard Z87+ face shield. But not if it is sitting on a shelf.
Click to expand...

Very true, Michael.....I only use the riot shield when I have suspicions of a possible break-up of the wood.......otherwise I'm nearly always wearing my Uvex Bionic shield. (Sometimes, I do not use the Uvex while sanding @300rpm......but, I do have my safety glasses, plus the resp-o-rator.)There are those over-doers who will say under no circumstances should you ever not have a face shield, but I'm one who doesn't agree with that.

-----odie-----
 
odie said:
Very true, Michael.....I only use the riot shield when I have suspicions of a possible break-up of the wood.......otherwise I'm nearly always wearing my Uvex Bionic shield. (Sometimes, I do not use the Uvex while sanding @300rpm......but, I do have my safety glasses, plus the resp-o-rator.)There are those over-doers who will say under no circumstances should you ever not have a face shield, but I'm one who doesn't agree with that.

-----odie-----
Click to expand...
A thought on this discussion as well as some respirators have that cushion material and filters around your face which provides another object to deflect impact.
 
Perspective..... It is vastly different depending on your experience level. I can appreciate what some here are saying...and I hope you all will consider that YOUR experience, has been earned with years and perhaps thousands of pieces of wood turned. Your analysis of each piece and understanding of grain, inclusions, and traits of various wood species likely shapes your perspective as respects the need/no need for full face shield protection.

On the other hand - I have been turning for parts of 3 years. I have launched more than my fair share of dangerous sized pieces because - like all NEW turners nowadays...Youtube is full of videos with no qualifiers as to the importance of safety.. And some of them ...are crazy, even stupid. There are no real parameters "taught" - pertaining to safety...(with some exception...).

So, when I found the AAW - I saw that there is a real, and genuine concern by AAW for teaching SAFETY as the FIRST rule in wood turning. At first I thought it a little overboard. But, I began to recognize that if we are to succeed in teaching and pushing forward the art and craft of woodturning, "safety first" is not just a bumper sticker. It must be THE foundation of teaching new turners.

Given that safety first is a point that I hope no one will argue with, please remember that YOU are being watched by new and less experienced turners - who admire your work ( as I do..) and even aspire to duplicate your "style". It is not just the work product being admired and looked up to. It is YOU.....as an accomplished wood turner. the exact scraper or gouge you choose, the brands, etc ALL contribute to the newer/less experienced turner's perception of what is important in skills building.

Knowing that we are being observed, and even teaching - whether that teaching is passive observation by others or active teaching - should remind us of the fundamentals of safety - NOT just for ourselves, rather for newer turners that will be influenced by our actions.......

Just like wearing a seat belt in a car is not always the most convenient or comfortable choice - it is a decision that should be a habit for us. Just like a face shield and lung protection while using a lathe and other power tools. None of these can prevent an accident. But they can dramatically increase chance of survival and lessen the degree of injury.
 
Tim Tucker said:
Perspective..... It is vastly different depending on your experience level. I can appreciate what some here are saying...and I hope you all will consider that YOUR experience, has been earned with years and perhaps thousands of pieces of wood turned. Your analysis of each piece and understanding of grain, inclusions, and traits of various wood species likely shapes your perspective as respects the need/no need for full face shield protection.

On the other hand - I have been turning for parts of 3 years. I have launched more than my fair share of dangerous sized pieces because - like all NEW turners nowadays...Youtube is full of videos with no qualifiers as to the importance of safety.. And some of them ...are crazy, even stupid. There are no real parameters "taught" - pertaining to safety...(with some exception...).

So, when I found the AAW - I saw that there is a real, and genuine concern by AAW for teaching SAFETY as the FIRST rule in wood turning. At first I thought it a little overboard. But, I began to recognize that if we are to succeed in teaching and pushing forward the art and craft of woodturning, "safety first" is not just a bumper sticker. It must be THE foundation of teaching new turners.

Given that safety first is a point that I hope no one will argue with, please remember that YOU are being watched by new and less experienced turners - who admire your work ( as I do..) and even aspire to duplicate your "style". It is not just the work product being admired and looked up to. It is YOU.....as an accomplished wood turner. the exact scraper or gouge you choose, the brands, etc ALL contribute to the newer/less experienced turner's perception of what is important in skills building.

Knowing that we are being observed, and even teaching - whether that teaching is passive observation by others or active teaching - should remind us of the fundamentals of safety - NOT just for ourselves, rather for newer turners that will be influenced by our actions.......

Just like wearing a seat belt in a car is not always the most convenient or comfortable choice - it is a decision that should be a habit for us. Just like a face shield and lung protection while using a lathe and other power tools. None of these can prevent an accident. But they can dramatically increase chance of survival and lessen the degree of injury.
Click to expand...
Agreed. YouTube has a wealth of information but the safety side in general is lacking.
 
The riot helmet I have the 3/8" Lexan face mask is attached to a US military helmet. I would almost guarantee you that you would survive any hit from a lathe except that it is connected under your chin and any hit is going to throw your head back viciously. But again it is very heavy and I try very hard to stay out of the line of fire wearing a lighter face mask.
 
If a company made a better designed face shield, designed for turners; they would make a fortune. I use a Lincoln as it's just a bit better than a bionic.
 
I figure that the most important video I ever made was the one Standing Out of the Line of Fire. Big first step in turning. Drives me nuts to see a demonstrator standing directly in the line of fire when turning a bowl....

One trip to the ER is going to cost you at least as much as that new dream lathe you want....

robo hippy
 
Anyone use the Trend Face shield like this one here; https://www.amazon.com/TREND-AIR-PRO-Airshield-Faceshield/dp/B002Q0Y5IU

I currently use the Uvex shield but am not completely happy with it's head protection capabilities, or lack there of. I see the trend has an ANSI Z-87 High Impact rating, I would hope that that would be sufficient but to be honest looking at it there seems to be no surround or frame(like full frame glasses) to the face shield. I would think that that would help considerably with protection against blunt force trauma.
Do any of you have better, commercially made options. I'm starting to get into multi axis and off center turning and really want to step up my safety game a bit.

Nevermind with my question, I found a thread in the Health and safety forum that goes in depth on many systems.
 
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I have the Trend and use it quite a bit. It performs as advertised, but it takes some getting used to due to the weight. Wish it was lighter!
 
I agree with the concern of weight using the Trend. I used the original (think Frankenstein square top) and even after 6 months of daily use I could not develop the neck muscles to support the weight. I've heard very positive comments about the Power Cap. I personally use an Airstream Helmet and Hepa Respirator on a belt. But for many woodturners, the cost for that is as much, if not more than the lathe they use. I'm not going to try start any arguments about the cost/futility/safety/health issues. However, we have one set of eyes and one set of lungs. When they fail, they are not easily replaced.
 
I have the JSP power cap. Love it. The cap part is hard plastic, full crown cover, and probably provides a bit more head protection than the standard UVEX. As for throat, not much protection there. I've given thought to adding a "gobbler beard" like on a baseball catcher's mask to give some throat protection but so far I've been to lazy. One of the good things about the power cap: It's comfortable, meaning you are more likely to wear it.
 
The first day I wore the Trend I was bothered by the weight but ever since that day it has been a non issue, bothers me not. I only wear it when turning dry wood (which i mostly do). Wet wood I use the UVEX and for sanding I use Respo-O-Rator and keep the air cleaner running.
 
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