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Finish over Sanding Paste

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I have made sanding paste using mineral oil, beeswax, and diatomaceous earth and a second batch adding some carnauba wax. I have never really used either one except as a test to see if they worked. The reason is I have always been concerned if I applied a finish over it there would be problems, i.e. mineral oil never cures and the wax. Those that use sanding paste are their “safe” film or oil finished that can be applied? Are there finishes to be avoided?
 
I don't have a lot of experience, but I regularly use Tried and True Original over Yorkshire Grit or Ack's sanding polish. The only difference I see in finished pieces with or without the sanding paste, is that the pieces have slightly more gloss on the pieces with the paste.
 
My thinking was you cannot put any film finish over a paste with mineral oil. Not sure about something like walnut oil or tung oil. I used the mineral oil as that was the most common recipe found and supposedly it is in Yorkshire Grit. Not sure about Acks. Now wondering if the paste could be made using walnut oil or tung oil instead of mineral oil for a more durable finish. If I was to do that again I would also add carnauba wax. I really don’t know if there is an advantage to using a paste on bowls. Seems like it is more trouble than it is worth.
 
I'm not a fan of oil/wax/grit mixtures, but I always thought that stuff was intended to be used over a gloss film finish to knock it down to satin or matte. I wouldn't use it on bare wood. However, the trouble I see with diatomaceous earth is that it can range from fine to almost as coarse as pumice so you need to be sure of what you are getting.
 
Just thinking this through... the mineral oil penetrates but never cures, that will mess with film finishes. Wax is a surface treatment and that's where it wants to stay, and will mess with film finishes. The d. earth is your abrasive and will theoretically be thoroughly wiped off the surface, unless some stays in the wax which is imbedded in microscratches the eye can't see, which can mess with film surfaces. Penetrating/curing finishes tung or linseed oil, may not care so much about these other foreign substances remaining in place. Maybe.

Only once did I ever use a similar process, rottenstone mixed with a little straight dishsoap, in high school shop class almost 40 years ago. It was used post-surface finish cure (Deft lacquer?) as a way to knock down high sheen and improve the finish surface.

I'm not keen on products like these on bare wood. I can only think, why bother? If I follow a normal sanding protocol up to 320 or 400 grit, then burnish the surface with a handful of thin shavings (no bark or thick, heaving shavings), I can get a wonderfully smooth surface free of any scratch patterns, ready for a finish of your choosing. Even paper grocery bag works well as a substitute to shavings for a final burnish of the surface, and it's MUCH cheaper than 2000 grit abrasive paper. William, I agree with your doubts.

To me, these products sound more like a way to separate a woodturner from their money. The catalogs never have enough methods for that, it seems.
 
I'm not a fan of oil/wax/grit mixtures, but I always thought that stuff was intended to be used over a gloss film finish to knock it down to satin or matte. I wouldn't use it on bare wood. However, the trouble I see with diatomaceous earth is that it can range from fine to almost as coarse as pumice so you need to be sure of what you are getting.

I use it on bare wood all the time. I believe that is the primary use case.
 
I use it on bare wood all the time. I believe that is the primary use case.
That is how i use it too. Craft Supplies’ Scratch Freee is my favorite. Their video on the product is informative
 
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Usually I do several coats of shellac as a sealer and thin I use the Acks abrasive past to polish and as a final finish I apply several coats of the Acks wax buffing between coats.

This is pretty typical of the final finish. Hinoki cypress with an African Blackwood rim.

Bob

IMG_1327.jpeg
 
Yes, that's what I've seen done, too.
Kent, when you use a sanding paste on bare wood, do you apply other finishes? What and how?

I don't always use the sanding paste on bowls. Sometimes I forget, sometimes I am going for a more satin finish, sometimes the wood isn't conducive, and so on.

Most of the time my process is:

- Sand to 220.
- (Optional) Apply shellac as a base coat/sanding sealer. Sometimes I skip the shellac altogether.
- Sand to 320 (sometimes 400).
- Wipe down with alcohol or whatever you normally use.
- Apply the polishing paste.
- Apply the final finish. I mostly use Tried and True Original on bowls. For display pieces I use other finishes like Ack's polishing compound, Myland's, shellac, or maybe wipe-on poly.

I'm not sure about putting on the shellac after I've already sanded to 220. When used in this manner, I'm applying a sanding sealer to just the final sanding. I guess that's OK.

Edit: I should add that you can just stop after the polishing paste and call that your finish.
 
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To me, these products sound more like a way to separate a woodturner from their money. The catalogs never have enough methods for that, it seems.

I agree. By the way, Rottenstone is basically the same grit as Tripoli. Tripoli sounds more exotic, so you pay more for it. I have a container of rottenstone that I bought ages ago. Back then, it was dirt cheap (excuse the pun). They're probably marketing it as tripoli now. :rolleyes:
 
I've thought about this thread, and similar threads, over the past day or so. This comment isn't aimed at anyone, any product, or any process. But...

Over all the years (29 since I first bought a lathe) I've had other turners in my life, in-person or on the web, the general concensus is to have a high quality prepped wood surface followed by a high quality finish (film or penetrating). But as I often watch this game from the out in the cheap seats, I'm observing that turners chase and chase the latest finishes to the point where we, as a collective, are getting away from the notion of "it's finished, but seems natural", to that not being good enough, and we want more and more to the point where the wood goods we make are starting to look, well, plastic again.

Folks, I'll say that this notion doesn't work for me. Through it all over time, whether I've mixed my own wiping varnish recipe or used some oil straight from the can, my goal has be to "finish" to that point one step before a film would interfere between my fingertips and that natural surface.

Someone once said, don't sacrifice the very good, or your personal best, by chasing the impossible. If we make it look so good that others think that there is no way it was made by hand (as much as a manual lathe allows for, anyway), then their perception becomes the reality. I don't ever want someone to mistake anything I make by hand with something that rolls out of a high-tech factory.

(Opinion-based philosophising complete.)
 
I've thought about this thread, and similar threads, over the past day or so. This comment isn't aimed at anyone, any product, or any process. But...

Over all the years (29 since I first bought a lathe) I've had other turners in my life, in-person or on the web, the general concensus is to have a high quality prepped wood surface followed by a high quality finish (film or penetrating). But as I often watch this game from the out in the cheap seats, I'm observing that turners chase and chase the latest finishes to the point where we, as a collective, are getting away from the notion of "it's finished, but seems natural", to that not being good enough, and we want more and more to the point where the wood goods we make are starting to look, well, plastic again.

Folks, I'll say that this notion doesn't work for me. Through it all over time, whether I've mixed my own wiping varnish recipe or used some oil straight from the can, my goal has be to "finish" to that point one step before a film would interfere between my fingertips and that natural surface.

Someone once said, don't sacrifice the very good, or your personal best, by chasing the impossible. If we make it look so good that others think that there is no way it was made by hand (as much as a manual lathe allows for, anyway), then their perception becomes the reality. I don't ever want someone to mistake anything I make by hand with something that rolls out of a high-tech factory.

(Opinion-based philosophising complete.)
That is why I put my glassy lacquer finish on the outside of my boxes, and leave the wood unfinished on the inside. This makes it look polished and hand turned, but never manufactured. That is what I like about boxes, you can have two different finish types.
 
As a 40+ year maker of flat work I have eventually gravitated to a French polish finish of sorts with a satin or matte appearance. Tight grained hardwoods take an oil well when sanded appropriately. Shellac, followed by wax when used sparingly can do wonders for an appearance but is not very durable which is ok if it is a display piece. My finish consists of an oil followed by Ack's followed by Carnauba wax. It is a finish that showcases the wood and feels good in the hand. It also is easy for an owner to refurbish the shine when needed. Nothing fancy. Oh yes I also sand to 220 and burnish with shavings or sand to 400 (rarely). It is amazing what burnishing does to a finish.
 
When I first posted this I was thinking the sanding paste was used before a finish and wanted to know if there was problems. I now think @Bill Boehme is correct in that it should be used post finish. Yorkshire Grit instructions are to put two coats of sanding sealer before using the paste. I didn’t find any information applying finish over it. I think my use would only be to use it after an oil finish similar to what @Paul May does. I’m thinking I would let the oil cure first. There is at least one turner in our club that applies it directly to the wood. My concern would be long term effect since it does contain mineral oil and bees wax. I don’t know if the finish would eventually start to chip because of lack of adhesion.
@Steve Tiedman I don’t disagree with you. That type of “gloss” is usually with some type of film finish like polyurethane or an epoxy. For bowls I almost always use an oil finish. With oil I think you get that warm feel. I also use lacquer for small boxes. I have been finishing them inside and out. However reading @Gabriel Hoff finish for boxes, I may use the paste on the inside. Not sure if I will apply sanding sealer first.

My conclusion is the paste is similar to doing the Beall buff after the finish is applied.
 
Almost 30 years ago, when I was a beginning turner, my mentor recommended a product called Meldos for my bowls, all of which were intended for use in the kitchen or at the table. It was food safe with some kind of orange citrus driers in it and I would put 4-5 coats on, one every evening, rubbing out each previous coat with super fine steel wool. Bowls I made back then are still in my daughter's kitchen, still going strong. Unfortunately, that particular product no longer exists. The current Meldos, made by Livos, is not at all the same nor is it suitable for food safe items. I've just resurrected my woodturning and haven't yet found what I consider a suitable and durable enough product to finish my bowls. Another mentor has recommended Odie's Oil, expensive, but dries to a durable food safe, water repellent finish. Only just started using it, so the verdict is still out, but I'd be happy to learn if anyone else has experience with this product.
 
I have used the mineral oil, beeswax, diatomaceous earth sanding paste on bare wood. The mineral oil as I understand it is there mostly for lubrication when turning for the friction. After I have turned it, rubbing with paper towels until the towels remain clean. Then I apply a few coats of shine juice (Boiled linseed oil, Shellac and denatured alcohol mixture) or Shellac sealer then coat with Poly Urethane. Haven't had any problems with either of these coating so far. Have used this for a couple so months so far with no issues.
 
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I have made sanding paste using mineral oil, beeswax, and diatomaceous earth and a second batch adding some carnauba wax. I have never really used either one except as a test to see if they worked. The reason is I have always been concerned if I applied a finish over it there would be problems, i.e. mineral oil never cures and the wax. Those that use sanding paste are their “safe” film or oil finished that can be applied? Are there finishes to be avoided?

I have used Acks sanding paste and finishing polish for about five years now. The paste...I actually don't remember what it contains (they used to put a sticker on the back of their tubs listing what was in each, they no longer do), but I don't think there was any wax in the paste. The paste is one of those disintegrating grits, where the more you polish with it, the finer the grit becomes as each granule breaks down more and more.

I've ONLY ever used any kind if sanding paste, over sealed wood. Usually shellac, althought I've tried some other things as well in the past including cellulose sanding sealers as well as I think a water based sealer, and lacquer. I never use the paste directly on bare wood. It never made sense to me, and the recommendations for Acks are to seal the wood first. So my process is to sand the wood, sand it well, sand it so NO scratch marks appear (this is very important!), which can take some real care at times (depends a lot on the wood), then seal, then polish. Following this process, you can get a very nice glossy shine, or a satin shine, depends a lot on how fine you sanded and what you used to seal. Since you sealed, well, none of the sanding paste gets into the wood fibers. So even if it had wax (I also have used Yorkshire Grit, which DOES definitely include wax, and its quite different stuff from the Acks paste), you aren't embedding the paste into the wood fibers.

With Acks, I think its posible to use another finish over the remaining seal coat(s)... In fact, the recommended approach is to buff the Acks paste on starting at a low RPM, then periodically step the RPM up a bit and use a new clean piece of towel or rag, and keep doing this until you have completely cleaned all remnants of the paste off the workpiece. This is possible with Acks, I don't think its really the same with Yorkshire Grit, possibly because of the wax in it. Once you have fully polished your piece with Acks sanding paste, you should then have just the sealer on the wood. If that sealer can then take another finish, it should be possible. Shellac, which is usually what I use (although sometimes I use Mylands Cellulose Sanding Sealer), is one of those "universal over/under" things that can apparently be used over and under just about anything (except maybe over wax?) So its a prime option if you have additional finishing in mind.

In any case...personally at least, I've always avoided using pastes directly on wood. Yorkshire even, despite seeing many people use it directly on the wood...I've never really liked how it gets into the fibers. It does not seem to bring out the chatoyance the same way as when you seal the wood first. Shellac does well to bring out chatoyance. Sometimes I'll use an oil coat first, then CA (this is usually only on pens) then the sanding paste. The oil also helps bring out the chatoyance. Mylands sealer is ok, it yellows things a bit, and its more of a pee-yellow, than the warmer golden-yellow of an ultra blond shellac. It doesn't quite seem to bring out the chatoyance as much, but its still better than paste directly on the wood, IME.

I don't really use water based finishes, not really a fan...they all seem to have very high solids content, and sit more as a film on top of the wood and don't seem to penetrate and bring out the brilliance of the wood, so I don't have any experience there with regards to how well polishing pastes work on them. I did try Craft Coat for a while, which I didn't realize at the time was a water-based finish. Initially I thought it looked fairly good, shiny, but it actually shrinks and forms a hard film coat over the wood. Since it shrinks, it takes on grain characteristics underneath, and that actually made it fairly hard to polish well. Sanding it was VERY hard, it doesn't sand well. This was my longest used water based finish, and one of the reasons I kind of wrote them off for good some time ago. In any case, if you use water based finishes, I would make sure they are compatible with a sanding paste, if you use any as a seal coat.

Oh, and for sanding pastes...I don't remember what Acks has in it, but I don't think it has any oil or wax. Its a brown colored gritty paste, but at normal room temperatures (i.e. ~70F/21C) its relatively soft. Its a decomposing grit, so it starts out feeling coarse (they say its about like 300-600 grit), but as you polish it decomposes and eventually becomes an ultra fine grit, which can be as high as 1500 or higher. If I am making something I want to use Acks as a finish, I sand to at least 600, sometimes 800 or even 1200, depends on the wood. Despite the grit feeling coarse at first, it very rapidly breaks down, and does not leave any large scale scratches...but it definitely polishes up things very nicely. With the right woods and pre-sanding, you can even get some fairly glossy finishes, although most of the time its a satin sheen, and with shellac as a sealer (I usually use the Zinssers Bullseye Seal Coat) the chatoyance is very good to extremely good.

Such is my experience with sanding pastes. I say, seal the wood first, keep the paste from saturating the wood fibers, and you'll probably have a better chance at using another finish over top (although, any finish that needs penetration, say oil, obviously wouldn't really work that way.) If you need to use a finish that penetrates, you could try applying that first, then sealing, then use the sanding paste.
 
I have put various shellac, oil and blended finishes on pieces after using abrasive sanding paste (Yorkshire Grit or homemade) without any problems, but I quite agree with the observations of Steve (that the oil, wax and abrasive grit in sanding pastes has the potential to be problematic for subsequent finishes) and Jon (that sealing before using the grits is important because it can mitigate these issues by minimizing penetration of the oil, wax and grit).

I also find that sealing before abrasive paste can reduce the darkening of the wood that the oil and wax in the paste can cause. If I want to darken the wood or heighten contrast, I can do that with a finish later.

An important additonal step for me is to do a thorough wipe-down--often twice--with denatured alcohol, after using the abrasive paste. I am hoping that this will remove as much residual grit and wax/oil as possible.

I also do this alcohol wipe-down after Beall tripoli buffing (if to be followed by any other finish), for the same reasons.

By the way, about using a drying oil in abrasive paste, I have done this with tung oil and it worked well, but (perhaps predictably) the paste got too thick after a short period, presumably as the tung oil started curing. Walnut oil might be a good candidate here, because it is so thin and cures more slowly.
 
@Jon Rista When I started this thread I knew just about nothing regarding sanding paste. I had seen where some had put a hard finish over sanding paste such as Acks. Since then my google research says Acks, Yorkshire Grit, and EEE UltraShine are basically beeswax, mineral oil and Tripoli. They may also contain proprietary ingredients. I did get a tub of EEE UltraShine at a garage sale. It seems to have a coarser grit than my paste made with diatomaceous earth. EEE’s instructions say to apply over a finish and then use Shellawax liquid or cream over it (friction polish). For now I have limited my application to the inside of boxes. I may venture out and try on turnings with lacquer or poly at some point. For now, I apply Zinsser wax free shellac first and then apply the sanding paste.. Speaking of Shellac wax I also picked up a bar of shellac wax. I really never knew about this, but guess the need do do something with the wax from de-waxed shellac. Says to be the second hardest wax and can be use for filling voids in wood, guessing after the finish is applied.


IMG_4533.jpeg IMG_4535.jpeg
 
I posted this chart in another thread.

IMG_9150.jpeg


This Jimmy Clewes video is also quite interesting regarding finishes. I tried it myself, and yes, as Jimmy says you can put lacquer on top of wax.




My own personal view but I don’t think Mineral Oil has any place in wood turning. When I made abrasive wax many folks used Walnut Oil so that’s what I used and it works fine.


.
 
@Jon Rista When I started this thread I knew just about nothing regarding sanding paste. I had seen where some had put a hard finish over sanding paste such as Acks. Since then my google research says Acks, Yorkshire Grit, and EEE UltraShine are basically beeswax, mineral oil and Tripoli. They may also contain proprietary ingredients. I did get a tub of EEE UltraShine at a garage sale. It seems to have a coarser grit than my paste made with diatomaceous earth. EEE’s instructions say to apply over a finish and then use Shellawax liquid or cream over it (friction polish). For now I have limited my application to the inside of boxes. I may venture out and try on turnings with lacquer or poly at some point. For now, I apply Zinsser wax free shellac first and then apply the sanding paste.. Speaking of Shellac wax I also picked up a bar of shellac wax. I really never knew about this, but guess the need do do something with the wax from de-waxed shellac. Says to be the second hardest wax and can be use for filling voids in wood, guessing after the finish is applied.


View attachment 75122 View attachment 75123

So, Acks has two parts. There is the sanding paste, and the "restoring polish", and it is the latter that has oils and waxes. I think its both carnauba and beeswax, but I don't remember the full formula as they haven't included it on their tubs in a while.

I don't think the Acks sanding paste includes any wax. It may contain oil, not sure, but it doesn't feel like it? Its a very different kind of paste from Yorkshire Grit, which DEFINITELY contains wax and oil, and you can feel it. With Acks sanding paste, you can remove it all from your piece, so long as you sealed first. I suspect if it contained wax, that probably wouldn't be possible.

I've actually tried a number of different sanding pastes, including something called True Grit, Yorkshire, this stuff from a guy I found on Etsy, and one batch of some home made stuff. I don't think I've tried the EEE UltraShine... All of those included waxes and oils. I liked the Yorkshire on some things, I didn't really like the rest. Yorkshire is the only, I guess you could call it, "classic" sanding paste" that I use, but most of the time, I use Acks sanding paste and Restoring Polish. There is just something about how it works, that I prefer. I think it may in fact be, that Acks purposely separates the oils and waxes into the "Restoring Polish" and that the sanding paste is something unique.

If you haven't tried it yet, I'd give the Acks Sanding Paste a try. I honestly think it is something fairly unique in the arena of sanding pastes. You can control how shiny your results get, by how fine you sand before sealing, the kind of sealing you do and how thick the seal coat. If you put on a few coats of shellac, and lightly smooth those out first with higher grit sanding, then use the Acks sanding paste, you can get a pretty shiny result if that's what you want. You can also use a single coat of shellac, and get a softer satin sheen.
 
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