First vessel with lid, comments please? Don't pull punches

[Mark Hepburn]

Hi All:

This is the 3rd segmented piece and the first time I've made a segmented form with staves. Also the only vessel I've done so some new experiences for me. I would certainly appreciate your thoughts. This is a gift for my dearly beloved for Mother's Day this Sunday. She collects ginger jars and all are some sort of porcelain or vitreous material, I thought I'd do something reminiscent of that form for her. I also turned a vase that I'm having some flowers put in. They're sort of companion pieces.

Anyway...



It's about 17" tall to the top of the knob. Just under 6" in diameter at the widest point. Knob and base are black walnut, the staves are Santos mahogany and cypress, which we have in abundance down here (and this is 100+ year old cypress reclaimed from the decay of an old, now defunct sawmill). The lighter ring on both lid and vessel are birdseye maple, as is the lid's top piece. The rings of darker material are of bocote and chakte viga. And as you can see, they don't do very well together as I thought they would because there's almost no contrast and the grain distinctions even close up aren't enough to really create interest.

I turned a tenon about 2 1/2" diameter and 1 1/2" tall, which is what the staves are attached to.

So there it is. I hope some of you will take the time to comment and offer some of your expertise. Have a good day.

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

I find it a bit too busy between the two light rings. I think it would have looked better if the top of the base and the bottom of the lid were done in the same woods and segments. The staves really look good and elongate the piece. I think it would have been cleaner if the step was not there before the base.

Having said that, my free opinion is worth just what you paid for it. Anyone would be thankful to receive it as a gift. Your skill is obvious - certainly much more advanced than mine.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I find it a bit too busy between the two light rings. I think it would have looked better if the top of the base and the bottom of the lid were done in the same woods and segments. The staves really look good and elongate the piece. I think it would have been cleaner if the step was not there before the base.

Having said that, my free opinion is worth just what you paid for it. Anyone would be thankful to receive it as a gift. Your skill is obvious - certainly much more advanced than mine.

Grant, thanks very much. You actually identified something that was nagging at me but that I couldn't wrap my head around. And it is busy, which is something I can take away for the next project. And thanks for the comments on my "skill" I've turned fewer than a couple dozen things so far and everyone has been some kind of adventure.

 

[Grant Wilkinson]

You're very welcome, Mark. I came back to my post twice, thinking it would be best to delete it. Who the hell am I to be critiquing someone else's work? However, you did ask? I'm a newbie, too, relative to many of the turners in this group. Each of us has his/her own tastes and views of what works and what doesn't. None is flat out wrong, nor right. The thing that shows up, even when we may not like the form or colour or whatever, is the work that went into a piece and the skill that made it happen. As I said before, I'm sure that your gift will be long cherished.

Take care.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

You're very welcome, Mark. I came back to my post twice, thinking it would be best to delete it. Who the hell am I to be critiquing someone else's work? However, you did ask? I'm a newbie, too, relative to many of the turners in this group. Each of us has his/her own tastes and views of what works and what doesn't. None is flat out wrong, nor right. The thing that shows up, even when we may not like the form or colour or whatever, is the work that went into a piece and the skill that made it happen. As I said before, I'm sure that your gift will be long cherished.

Take care.

Thanks Grant. I was thinking just who does this guy think he is?! . Kidding.

I'm glad you didn't delete your post. Shouldn't have to apologize for being honest if we'll intentioned.

I can't build a car but I can tell you that my old plymouth Reliant sucked. Big time. And as a former chef, I know that lots of people can't prepare certain dishes but they can tell if I screwed up their supper

Same with this. And you did help me here and I'm taking your opinion and using it with my next projects.we won't always be newbies, but while we are we should avail ourselves of every but of information we can get. So thanks again and comment any time.

Mark

 

[Steve Worcester]

She will love the piece, but mom's do. I have a whole conversation about "mom bowls".
with what you were going for, it works well. But if you look at it from the standpoint of natural flow, the curves should look continuous and natural. Every line should look intentional. The form looks too straight and the transition to the base has too hard of an angle, but not when compared to a porcelain object it is to emulate.
Don't know your time spent in woodturning, but given the size, it is also an accomplishment.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

She will love the piece, but mom's do. I have a whole conversation about "mom bowls".
with what you were going for, it works well. But if you look at it from the standpoint of natural flow, the curves should look continuous and natural. Every line should look intentional. The form looks too straight and the transition to the base has too hard of an angle, but not when compared to a porcelain object it is to emulate.
Don't know your time spent in woodturning, but given the size, it is also an accomplishment.

Thanks Steve. Sadly, the lines WERE intentional

Taking your thoughts, would you say that I could have reduced the base diameter and swept the form more gracefully into the base? Lots of ginger jars do have smaller bass but I guess I get caught up in the mechanics of the work and lose sight of the aesthetics.

I bought my lathe January last year but was sick and didn't really get to turn much until about six months or so ago. I've done a couple dozen pieces including turning tool handles.

Thanks very much for the compliment as we'll as the pointers.

 

[Jerry Bailey]

good job with both vessels, tight joints and good gluing
I only see 1 section where it seems cut was a tad off and glue line a bit wide, but I had to look hard for it
The only thing I would personally change, is match the woods/pattern at bottom of lid, to the woods/pattern at top of stave, where the joint is
to me it'd "flow" a little better.
still, as I said, good job on both these vessels you posted, and yes, your LOML will love these

what kind of glue did you use for these?
that's been my recent dilemma ......
am used to using strictly Titebond III, because in cabinetry & furniture, it's the best
but am afraid of some yellowing re: segmented joints.
Just ordered a bottle of Titebond Translucent, has faster set time, but is supposed to dry completely clear.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

good job with both vessels, tight joints and good gluing
I only see 1 section where it seems cut was a tad off and glue line a bit wide, but I had to look hard for it
The only thing I would personally change, is match the woods/pattern at bottom of lid, to the woods/pattern at top of stave, where the joint is
to me it'd "flow" a little better.
still, as I said, good job on both these vessels you posted, and yes, your LOML will love these

what kind of glue did you use for these?
that's been my recent dilemma ......
am used to using strictly Titebond III, because in cabinetry & furniture, it's the best
but am afraid of some yellowing re: segmented joints.
Just ordered a bottle of Titebond Translucent, has faster set time, but is supposed to dry completely clear.

Thanks Jerry. I think that in retrospect the lid would have been more fitting -pardon the pun- had I matched the wood patterns as you say. Grant said its busy and that's kind of what you're saying too so we have a consensus .

I'm using Titebond II for segmented stuff. It seems to be what the segmented folks over at SWT use. I thought about the translucent and still may try it.

Like you, I use III for most of my flat work and it's definitely the best I think. I use the molding and trim stuff for light work. It dries clear but I'm hesitant to use in turning. Supposedly it's not suitable for that purpose. But I spend a bit of time at the Segmented forum and they all seem to use the II.

And thanks for your kind words about the pieces.

Mark

 

[Steve Worcester]

Thanks Steve. Sadly, the lines WERE intentional

Taking your thoughts, would you say that I could have reduced the base diameter and swept the form more gracefully into the base? Lots of ginger jars do have smaller bass but I guess I get caught up in the mechanics of the work and lose sight of the aesthetics.

I bought my lathe January last year but was sick and didn't really get to turn much until about six months or so ago. I've done a couple dozen pieces including turning tool handles.

Thanks very much for the compliment as we'll as the pointers.

Intentional and natural flow need to work together.
Ginger jars generally have a different ratio of height to width. They are bulbous and squatty. What I don't like about them is the flared base. BUT, the flared base is to give it stability for actual use, like a wide base in a salad bowl. Since yours is thinner and taller, you start quickly sacrificing usability and function for design aesthetics.
Honestly, This early in your turning life, I wouldn't worry about it. I understand the desire to just make things, but in 10 years, you will look back at this piece completely different than you do today.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Intentional and natural flow need to work together.
Ginger jars generally have a different ratio of height to width. They are bulbous and squatty. What I don't like about them is the flared base. BUT, the flared base is to give it stability for actual use, like a wide base in a salad bowl. Since yours is thinner and taller, you start quickly sacrificing usability and function for design aesthetics.
Honestly, This early in your turning life, I wouldn't worry about it. I understand the desire to just make things, but in 10 years, you will look back at this piece completely different than you do today.

If I don't have Alzheimer's in 10 years

Seriously, that's true. I was an oil painter for years and years and (pat on back) pretty good. Years later I looked my early work and thought, gee why did I do this or that.

 

[Steve Worcester]

If I don't have Alzheimer's in 10 years

Seriously, that's true. I was an oil painter for years and years and (pat on back) pretty good. Years later I looked my early work and thought, gee why did I do this or that.

Same principle. I look back at my work and think how bad it was. The same for my wife. I bring in a bowl or form now and she has a very valuable critique on it vs 10 years ago. And she doesn't turn, it has seen the progression of my work.

 

[barbsiddiqui]

Interesting discussion. I agree with Steve, and if you can stand one more opinion, sometimes 'first impressions' can make a design sink or swim, figuratively speaking. I like your segmenting, but I can't help it, all I see is 'soda fountain drink.'

I once did what I thought was a great little bowl, about 8" in diameter, with a tightly girdled, tucked in rim emphasized by a bead about 1/4 of the way down the outside of the bowl. When I took it off the lathe and stood it upright, all I could see was, it was a spittoon. That impression never left me, and I hated it. I didn't Want a spittoon, and it was all wrong. I repeated the exercise, changed the proportions a little, and the bowl worked.

I think drawing out an idea on a sketch pad first may help this effect. But then, if you intended to turn a soda fountain drink, hallelujah!

 

[Tony Rozendaal]

Thanks Grant. I was thinking just who does this guy think he is?! . Kidding.

I'm glad you didn't delete your post. Shouldn't have to apologize for being honest if we'll intentioned.

I can't build a car but I can tell you that my old plymouth Reliant sucked. Big time. And as a former chef, I know that lots of people can't prepare certain dishes but they can tell if I screwed up their supper

Same with this. And you did help me here and I'm taking your opinion and using it with my next projects.we won't always be newbies, but while we are we should avail ourselves of every but of information we can get. So thanks again and comment any time.

Mark

My main reason for making this post is that I wanted to say this is a very good attitude and one that I hope that I can always have. I'm not always successful at it when I put one of my creations up for review. I really like your comments that are quoted above.

As far as the jar, I think it is pretty good for where you describe yourself at as your turning skill level. Recently the ginger jar form has caught my interest as well. There is a lot more right with it than there is wrong with it.

This may be my first post on this forum - we'll know for sure after I hit the send button. I've been turning about 10 years give or take but still am mostly in the learning (newby) stage.

 

[Odie]

Mark, I have given a few critiques before, and have never felt comfortable with it. Giving praise is easy to do, and your first vessel with lid deserves lots of praise. Critiquing of design and form is not so easy to give, nor taken, or accepted, or agreed upon within the combined philosophy of turners. I know what I like, and what I like is from the perspective of an individual. These days, I spend a lot of effort critiquing my own works, and I have very few works that I feel can't be improved upon in some way, or another. At this point, I don't ask for a critique, as I feel my perspectives are more important to my desired results than someone who may not have traveled the same path, or have the same destinations I have in mind.....but, what others think is always a consideration. Of course, I don't mention any of this to those who purchase, or who are contemplating purchasing my turnings.......!

I admire your spirit/enthusiasm, and the willingness to take on a very intricate turning. The effort you put into it is obvious, and much more than most will try as a first effort.

My first impression is "busy, busy, busy-ness". There is so much going on there, that it detracts, instead of adds to the composition. Lots of contrast between laminations doesn't work for me, unless it's minimal......reminds me of the striped shirts of a referee at a football game! I don't agree with your thought that the appeal of the Bocote/chatke viga laminations isn't working. To my thinking, that's exactly what is working! I'd be willing to bet, if you had taken a simple Bocote/chatke viga theme throughout this turning, the general appeal would have been strengthened. The dark walnut knob would probably have worked better without the dark base.

To your significant other.......this will be an absolute treasure to her!

ooc

 

[Steve Worcester]

What you need to know is, anytime you ask for a critique, you get an answer from anyone who wants to type an answer. Some are experienced, some not. Some have gallery work, some not. Some have turned for a long time, some not. Even those who have turned for a long time, their interpretation of form, may not be the same as yours. Their opinions are base on that.
I don't say this to be mean or temper the writings to anyone before me, just to allow you to take in what has been typed in proper perspective. It's the internet.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Interesting discussion. I agree with Steve, and if you can stand one more opinion, sometimes 'first impressions' can make a design sink or swim, figuratively speaking. I like your segmenting, but I can't help it, all I see is 'soda fountain drink.'

I once did what I thought was a great little bowl, about 8" in diameter, with a tightly girdled, tucked in rim emphasized by a bead about 1/4 of the way down the outside of the bowl. When I took it off the lathe and stood it upright, all I could see was, it was a spittoon. That impression never left me, and I hated it. I didn't Want a spittoon, and it was all wrong. I repeated the exercise, changed the proportions a little, and the bowl worked.

I think drawing out an idea on a sketch pad first may help this effect. But then, if you intended to turn a soda fountain drink, hallelujah!

Hi Barb,

Yes I can stand as many opinions as come my way. Soda fountain drink. I see it. Or a float with a scoop if ice cream and a cherry on top

It's funny how things are perceived and I'll find out tomorrow if my beloved sees that (and I really hope not because it's suppose to be a ginger jar of sorts). If she sees a spittoon it'll be sorely disappointing!

Joking aside, I acknowledge that I drew not a single line and that's a lesson I will take away from this project.. And I appreciate your comments. I hope you'll do so on my future submissions. Thanks,
Mark

 

[Hu Lowery]

Someone should be thrilled today!

Mark,

Nothing to do with this particular piece but something I have found. What I see turning on the lathe in a horizontal position is considerably different than what I see displayed in the vertical position. I have seen the recommendation to back off fifteen feet and study what you have, perhaps putting a plain background behind it that contrasts to see the shape of the wood better. I suspect that this improves our perspective and perhaps minimizes some effect of our binocular vision that makes the shape appear a bit different when viewed from turning distance and horizontal.

Hu

 

[Mark Hepburn]

My main reason for making this post is that I wanted to say this is a very good attitude and one that I hope that I can always have. I'm not always successful at it when I put one of my creations up for review. I really like your comments that are quoted above.

As far as the jar, I think it is pretty good for where you describe yourself at as your turning skill level. Recently the ginger jar form has caught my interest as well. There is a lot more right with it than there is wrong with it.

This may be my first post on this forum - we'll know for sure after I hit the send button. I've been turning about 10 years give or take but still am mostly in the learning (newby) stage.

Hi Tony. Thanks for the honor of this being your first post. I appreciate your comments.

I think that for me, to measure my success at this stage is through the eyes of other more experienced turners.

I noticed that you are in East Troy. I lived in Oconomowoc for a couple of years back in the late '70s. I loved it up there. Went to Green Bay last year for a Saints - Packers game and brought back some good memories. Wisconsin was a great place to live.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark, I have given a few critiques before, and have never felt comfortable with it. Giving praise is easy to do, and your first vessel with lid deserves lots of praise. Critiquing of design and form is not so easy to give, nor taken, or accepted, or agreed upon within the combined philosophy of turners. I know what I like, and what I like is from the perspective of an individual. These days, I spend a lot of effort critiquing my own works, and I have very few works that I feel can't be improved upon in some way, or another. At this point, I don't ask for a critique, as I feel my perspectives are more important to my desired results than someone who may not have traveled the same path, or have the same destinations I have in mind.....but, what others think is always a consideration. Of course, I don't mention any of this to those who purchase, or who are contemplating purchasing my turnings.......!

I admire your spirit/enthusiasm, and the willingness to take on a very intricate turning. The effort you put into it is obvious, and much more than most will try as a first effort.

My first impression is "busy, busy, busy-ness". There is so much going on there, that it detracts, instead of adds to the composition. Lots of contrast between laminations doesn't work for me, unless it's minimal......reminds me of the striped shirts of a referee at a football game! I don't agree with your thought that the appeal of the Bocote/chatke viga laminations isn't working. To my thinking, that's exactly what is working! I'd be willing to bet, if you had taken a simple Bocote/chatke viga theme throughout this turning, the general appeal would have been strengthened. The dark walnut knob would probably have worked better without the dark base.

To your significant other.......this will be an absolute treasure to her!

ooc

Hi Odie. Thanks very much for taking the time to post. As you know from my own posts, I particularly like your work so your opinions carry a great deal of weight with me.

In retrospect, I have come to share your view that it is quite busy. And I am realizing that it is one of the pitfalls of being new at this. I think of it as kitchen sink syndrome . And it is the antithesis of what your work represents so there's a lesson for me.

I may try another ginger jar with more focus on the form and less on gee whiz stuff.

And she did love it, but she's my biggest supporter. Thanks again Odie!

 

[barbsiddiqui]

Mark,

Nothing to do with this particular piece but something I have found. What I see turning on the lathe in a horizontal position is considerably different than what I see displayed in the vertical position. I have seen the recommendation to back off fifteen feet and study what you have, perhaps putting a plain background behind it that contrasts to see the shape of the wood better. I suspect that this improves our perspective and perhaps minimizes some effect of our binocular vision that makes the shape appear a bit different when viewed from turning distance and horizontal.

Hu

A very good point, Hu. Another suggestion I've read is to photograph the work while on the lathe, in black and white. Then print it out on the computer and stand it up vertically. I haven't done this, but I've wished I had! Sounds like it would work nicely.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

What you need to know is, anytime you ask for a critique, you get an answer from anyone who wants to type an answer. Some are experienced, some not. Some have gallery work, some not. Some have turned for a long time, some not. Even those who have turned for a long time, their interpretation of form, may not be the same as yours. Their opinions are base on that.
I don't say this to be mean or temper the writings to anyone before me, just to allow you to take in what has been typed in proper perspective. It's the internet.

Steve,

If it's on the internet then it has to be true, right?

I understand what you're saying. I think that one can usually separate the wheat from the chaff though, don't you? At least I hope so. And, as I become more capable in turning, and the process itself becomes more second nature, I have enough self confidence in my own aesthetic.

And true, one can be an expert turner with no sense of form or design. I've worked with some very capable food guys with no vision or imagination. Great technically though. Same thing here, or in most creative endeavors.

Thanks!

Mark

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark,

Nothing to do with this particular piece but something I have found. What I see turning on the lathe in a horizontal position is considerably different than what I see displayed in the vertical position. I have seen the recommendation to back off fifteen feet and study what you have, perhaps putting a plain background behind it that contrasts to see the shape of the wood better. I suspect that this improves our perspective and perhaps minimizes some effect of our binocular vision that makes the shape appear a bit different when viewed from turning distance and horizontal.

Hu

Hu,

That's a good idea. You isolate the shape and view it without distractions. That's exactly what I did when back in my painting days. Back when I had steady hands and good eyes.

 

[Hu Lowery]

was considering that . . .

A very good point, Hu. Another suggestion I've read is to photograph the work while on the lathe, in black and white. Then print it out on the computer and stand it up vertically. I haven't done this, but I've wished I had! Sounds like it would work nicely.

Sounds like a great idea. I was considering doing similar sometimes, other than the black and white part. Take a few quick snaps and preview them on the computer. A click of a button is all it takes to rotate to suit. If I really wanted to play I could do my editing in photoshop to get the shape to please me before "editing" on the lathe. I sure could make use of a "history" feature like photoshop has on the lathe sometimes if it was possible!

Hu