Form

[Ron Solfest]

When I was first starting to turn 30yrs ago I remember reading a comment from Raffan about form. The words were different, but what stuck with me is 'When turning bowls form is what counts, wood tones and grain mellow but form is what you'll see as the years go by.' I think of this often when turning a bowl, or just admiring them.

I was reminded again of Raffan's advice this morning when browsing the Photo Gallery. I've been traveling and away from turning for the last 5 months. This morning I decided to browse the last few hundred pictures in the gallery. I did this in ~10min, only stopping to pause a handfull of times and poke into the picture to examine and learn more. As I was doing this I started thinking about what drew me into various pictures; it was almost always good clean lines and form. Sometimes a clever interpretation or unique turning caught my eye, but I was on to the next in seconds unless the form drew me in.

Not surprisingly, the same names often popped up as I poked into the pictures. We have some wonderful turners that regularly inspire us on this forum. Thanks!

 

[hockenbery]

When discussing form lots of folks ask “ how will it look painted black” , “ how does it look upside down”

The occasional “black and white” shows restrict entries to with those colors to showcase form.


We learn to turn beads, coves, and flats. How we visualize putting them together creates the forms.

 

[Bob Brown]

When discussing form lots of folks ask “ how will it look painted black” , “ how does it look upside down”

The occasional black and white shows restrict entries to with this colors to showcase form.


We learn to turn beads, coves, and flats. How we put them together creates the forms.

J. Paul Fennell used to paint forms so the eye wasn't distracted. Works best for comparing hollow forms. Great wood artist.

 

[Jaramiah Severns]

I remember reading a comment from Raffan about form.

Raffan’s book, The Art of Turned Bowls, has been a significant influence in my approach to turning, largely due to its emphasis on the elements of form.

Jacques Vesery’s talk about design and form at the 2023 AAW symposium also had an huge impact on me.

Couldn’t agree with you more, Ron. Lots of super talented folks on this forum. I’ve learned a ton from y’all.

 

[Darryl Fective]

Because there is so much to learn, new turners can get too focused on just making cuts. Even knowing proportions and what good form looks like, it still eludes me sometimes.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Form is the most important thing... "form is what counts, wood tones and grain mellow but form is what you'll see as the years go by".

A recent journal article has suggestions for designing on the computer with free software to get a finished appearance that can be viewed from any angle. I imagine most readers glossed over that article because it requires some serious effort to become comfortable with the process. I do this every piece I "turn" on the CNC machines.

It doesn't help when we see in a video the nonsense from Ellsworth that he throws a piece of wood onto the lathe and lets the wood determine the form without a design in mind. I don't believe that statement of his for a minute.

 

[hockenbery]

lets the wood determine the form

.
When I am working with organic elements, I often change my design to produce a more appealing form as the organic elements become known. I have a vision when I start with the organic elements as I see them- I often change the centers as I’m rouging to put the organic feature where I want it. After establishing the rim, I may change the target height, width, curve, etc. to get to a more pleasing form.

Last century, In David’s class, we all learned to view the shape as we did the roughing between centers by leaning over sideways or taking the piece off the lathe for examination. Focus on ratios of height, width, where to put the wide spot, curve design, rim design….
Can shift one or both centers to achieve a design.
Don’t let the holding method or the blank size compromise the design.

Using the organic elements may not lend itself to modeling.
Scanning technologies can map some organic elements but many are revealed by a cut.
The challenge is how to best present those elements in a form.

 

[john lucas]

John Jordan did a series painted black and white to show off form. It's hard to judge form on the lathe. In the old days I would screw the chuck off with the piece attached and set it on my headstock and study the form. Now days just take a photo with your phone and turn it sideways to look at the form.

 

[Isaac Litster]

What I see too much with many turners, I feel, is that the wood "speaks" for the piece. I have read Raffan's book on bowl design numerous times, and have two copies, and I agree that form is crucial to a piece. I am inexperienced with form, but I have looked as far back as 2009 in the member gallery here so far, and what I am more impressed by is great shapes, proportions, texture, composition, etc. rather than a burl, or an 8" bowl made from pink ivory for example. Wood is cool, but it is only one part of the puzzle. It is the same with any art form. If you can draw anything realistically and with extreme detail, that is impressive, but sometimes a scratchy quick sketch by Alberto Giacometti is more impactful. In photography, the most amazing sunrise is pretty, but its potential is lost with a terrible camera, the wrong settings, and bad composition.
I greatly respect those on this forum who use carefully executed forms to speak for a piece and support the form with amazing wood, and composition.

 

[Isaac Litster]

Because there is so much to learn, new turners can get too focused on just making cuts. Even knowing proportions and what good form looks like, it still eludes me sometimes.

As a new turner, this is accurate, we focus on making a good cut, as cleanly as possible, and not getting a catch, hoping that the product looks okay.

 

[Kevin Weir]

Very relevant thread. In my mind, form is everything in woodturning.

 

[Graham Dolby]

And sometimes it takes the removal of a millimetre to change a pleasing form i9nto one that "sings". Of course, the opposite can happen too

 

[John K Jordan]

'When turning bowls form is what counts, wood tones and grain mellow but form is what you'll see as the years go by.'

That kind of goes along with "the woodturner's insult". If the form, surface, or finish stinks on a piece, just say "my, what beautiful wood!"

I like to evaluate the feel and balance as well as the form, and that can be related to the inside shape as well as solely the outside form. Raffan suggested that occasionally when you turn something you like (or maybe don't like", put it on the bandsaw and cut it down the middle, presumably to learn what works for you and what doesn't. It's so hard to do that, of course, but can be enlightening. If the piece is small, you can do nearly the same thing by feeling the inside and outside with your thumb and forefinger. To me, it's a win if both the outside form suits me AND the finished piece feels great in the hand.

I often make a sketch before I put tool to wood, sometimes planning the whole piece, sometimes with several options to help eliminate what I DON'T like, then sometimes make full scale drawings of the design I like. I did just that when preparing for a demo on turning metals on the wood lathe, in this case for feet and finial. This is about 4" in diameter at the wide spot.



I'm not much in the "let the wood speak to me" camp. When the wood speaks to me it's usually something like "Oh no. Why'd ya do THAT?"

Also, I turn to please myself. Not everyone likes the same thing, whether form or finish, so I am never concerned of what someone might not like.

JKJ

 

[Ron Solfest]

… Raffan suggested that occasionally when you turn something you like (or maybe don't like", put it on the bandsaw and cut it down the middle, presumably to learn what works for you and what doesn't. It's so hard to do that, of course, but can be enlightening….

JKJ

I’m pretty sure I watched Raffan do this on a VHS ~25yrs ago while exclaiming “a little thick in the bottom, like many of us”

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Even though I use really beautiful woods, the wood can't take your eye away from the form. I really focus on form, without it it is just a oddly shaped chunk of wood!!

 

[Richard Coers]

Don't forget that what is pleasing to the eye was put into mathematical equations centuries ago.

 

[Ted Pelfrey]

Raffan’s book, The Art of Turned Bowls, has been a significant influence in my approach to turning, largely due to its emphasis on the elements of form.

Jacques Vesery’s talk about design and form at the 2023 AAW symposium also had an huge impact on me.

Couldn’t agree with you more, Ron. Lots of super talented folks on this forum. I’ve learned a ton from y’all.

A demo with Vesary changed everything for me.

 

[Jerry Bennett]

Part of the creative process is taking what you have and doing the best you can with it. Like or not, the figuring in the wood is a part of it . Bill Luce’s efforts to make the grain a major creative element resulted in works that are the best the woodturning community has to offer. I have seen works that had a great, well thought out shape that was a complete failure because the figuring was not considered.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Part of the creative process is taking what you have and doing the best you can with it. Like or not, the figuring in the wood is a part of it . Bill Luce’s efforts to make the grain a major creative element resulted in works that are the best the woodturning community has to offer. I have seen works that had a great, well thought out shape that was a complete failure because the figuring was not considered.

That is very true, looking for grain to match a particular shape or keeping it simple if the grain is complex....

 

[Tim Hunter]

Form is the very reason I like elliptical work.

I study profiles of pieces for flow, and discontinuities/unintentional inflections. Undulations in the bottom of bowls are a pet peeve of mine.

Figure means a lot to me - I prefer not to put time into boring grain.

Tim

 

[John K Jordan]

Undulations in the bottom of bowls are a pet peeve of mine.

Amen to that. And circular scratches. Except from those with failing vision and numbness in the fingertips.

I use curved hand scrapers to eliminate those annoying undulations and dimples and humps I see (and feel) in the center of so many bowls and platters.
SO quick and easy, and perfect to take out NRS tool marks too.
(I like to hold work in a Best Wood Tools carving and finishing post for smoothing and sanding)

Maple, I think.




Olive


JKJ

 

[Neil S]

It doesn't help when we see in a video the nonsense from Ellsworth that he throws a piece of wood onto the lathe and lets the wood determine the form without a design in mind. I don't believe that statement of his for a minute.

That is exactly what I do, although it begins well before the lathe while I'm preparing the blank with the chain and band saw.

I come to each piece of wood with an extensive repertoire of possible forms that it might take and the final form that it takes comes from a dialogue between myself and the individual piece of wood, which evolves interactively as the piece progresses on the lathe.

To reflect my approach I have a small card that goes with each piece to the gallery that includes the words;

Beautiful pieces of wood that guide me
in what form they might take in their new life
beyond the living tree​

My 'form bank' that I bring to the process is an accumulation of over 60yrs of also being a potter, sculptor and from countless hours of life drawing, plus studying and teaching form through the history of art and design. However, as well as I can, I try to avoid imposing a form on a piece of wood without regard for what it has to say for itself. In this respect I acknowledge the influence that George Nakashima has had on my work and the inspiration for my wording above.

This is what George Nakashima had to say on form...

There must be a union between the spirit in wood and the spirit in man. The grain of the wood must relate closely to its function... Gradually a form evolves, much as nature produces the tree in the first place. The object created can live forever. The tree lives on in its new form.

 

[Dean Center]

I was fortunate to sit in on 2 Jacques Vesery-lead group discussions on form at the recent Rocky Mountain Symposium. In one, some brave audience members presented one of their pieces from the instant gallery for discussion. When one bowl went up, I thought it was perfect and I was pugnaciously prepared to defend it's perfection. Jacques commented on a subtle change in the curve near the rim, about 1/8" of the 3" height, and by tilting my head and getting a less cluttered background, and after 2.5 hours of similar focused discussions, I could see what he did. It was still a spectacular piece, and just one short pass with a sharp gouge away from actual perfection.

I'm still poor at seeing form, especially when a piece is sideways on the lathe, but I'm getting better.

 

[Michael Anderson]

It doesn't help when we see in a video the nonsense from Ellsworth that he throws a piece of wood onto the lathe and lets the wood determine the form without a design in mind. I don't believe that statement of his for a minute.

I'm going to on a limb and say you're misinterpreting what he means (and/or "you" in a general sense). Of course the wood can't "speak", but you can certainly shift your approach to a specific form if something sub-surface is revealed. This is grossly generalized, but I think Ellsworth's standard procedure was to start just about every piece between centers with the grain running parallel to the ways. Rough into a cylinder, and then shift the wood's position appropriately based on features, grain, etc... He might have a form in mind ahead of time, but is willing to adjust the plan as needed--no need to force a certain form if it won't be as aesthetically pleasing as an alternative option. What I'm saying is that he still makes executive decisions pre- and during turning, but can change the design plan as appropriate.

 

[Dave Landers]

I was fortunate to sit in on 2 Jacques Vesery-lead group discussions on form at the recent Rocky Mountain Symposium. In one, some brave audience members presented one of their pieces from the instant gallery for discussion.

That was a great session. I missed the other one (probably running a camera for @Vincent Luciani or @Michael Anderson demos).
If anyone ever gets a chance to see Jacques demo - highly recommended.