• June 2025 Turning Challenge: Turn a Wand! (click here for details)
  • Sign up for the 2025 AAW Forum Box Swap by Monday, June 30th (click here for details)
  • Congratulations to Walker Westbrook for "Archaeological Record" being selected as Turning of the Week for June 23, 2025 (click here for details)
  • Welcome new registering member. Your username must be your real First and Last name (for example: John Doe). "Screen names" and "handles" are not allowed and your registration will be deleted if you don't use your real name. Also, do not use all caps nor all lower case.

Help identifying wood?

Joined
Dec 30, 2018
Messages
1
Likes
0
Location
Austin, TX
Hi everybody!

I'm curious if anybody here can help me with identifying wood based on pictures of finished bowls. I know this can be challenging to do accurately based on pictures alone, but any guidance would be appreciated. For context, all of these were from trees salvaged in and around Austin, TX. I believe the 3rd and 4th photos are different types of Oak, but I'm not sure which kinds. And I'm thinking the 2nd photo may be Pecan. Thanks in advance for any information! IMG_8299.jpegIMG_8296.jpegIMG_0976.jpegIMG_0973.jpeg
 
Hi Adam. I have been working on a project for a little while here, that aims to use AI to identify wood by photos of the grain. Now, I doubt that it has been trained well enough at this point, to successfully identify with as reasonable degree of certainty, any woods just yet. However, if you could get some better, close up photos of the grain in the center of each of these bowls, and send them to me... I could see if I can identify the woods as of yet, and further, photos like that once they are positively identified could help me add to my index of wood data (vectors, really, which are used with AI models, which are also all vectors) and improve the ability of the system to identify woods accurately. Eventually I hope to catalog enough positively identified photos of wood grain that the system will reliably identify all the known species of wood with very high accuracy, and will release the product online. Not there yet, otherwise I would have just pointed you to the url for it. Hopefully by end of year I'll have been able to catalog enough wood information that it will work reliably (training AI is one of those things that the more data you have the better, but there are actually not a lot of freely available truly great quality photos of woods that will allow for optimal cataloging.)

Send me a DM if you are interested. FWIW, I wouldn't actually be keeping your images in the long run, just the LLM-compatible vectors produced from them.
 
Hopefully by end of year I'll have been able to catalog enough wood information that it will work reliably

Just spend a few seconds (er, days) going through the thousands of photos on hobbithouseinc, if it doesn't choke the algorithms. This site gives a human an appreciation for the variability within even one species and how many look similar on the surface.


Start with Acacia and work through Zircote (Ziricote).

Then go to Wood Database and work through every species there.
Don't forget to talk to the scientists who have studied this for decades, for example at the USDA Forest Product Laboratory and collaborate with professional wood identification companies and labs.

Good magnification of end grain features is vital to ID. For some species higher power microscopes are needed to examine cell structures. And for a good start, read Hoadley's book.on Wood Identification. There are many journal articles as well. And don't forget the 100s of woodworking and turning books with high quality photos.

Remember, some of the names found will be somone's best guess.

Since common names are often a spectrum of local and international names, it's probably best to base everything on accepted species names, keeping up, of course, with how some of those have changed over the years. I've found significant cases of these in my own limited library.

JKJ
 
Just spend a few seconds (er, days) going through the thousands of photos on hobbithouseinc, if it doesn't choke the algorithms. This site gives a human an appreciation for the variability within even one species and how many look similar on the surface.


Start with Acacia and work through Zircote (Ziricote).

Then go to Wood Database and work through every species there.
Don't forget to talk to the scientists who have studied this for decades, for example at the USDA Forest Product Laboratory and collaborate with professional wood identification companies and labs.

Good magnification of end grain features is vital to ID. For some species higher power microscopes are needed to examine cell structures. And for a good start, read Hoadley's book.on Wood Identification. There are many journal articles as well. And don't forget the 100s of woodworking and turning books with high quality photos.

Remember, some of the names found will be somone's best guess.

Since common names are often a spectrum of local and international names, it's probably best to base everything on accepted species names, keeping up, of course, with how some of those have changed over the years. I've found significant cases of these in my own limited library.

JKJ

I actually started with Wood Database. I had to scrape down the primaries, to get an initial vector database going. I've been manually working through secondary images for each type of wood, of which there are well over 500. The size and quality there was the key to even getting something rudimentary working.

I have also pulled some images off of hobbithouseinc, although I'm not quite ready to go through all of those yet (SO MANY!)

I have run into two key problems, that I am not sure anything other than a sheer volume of quality images will resolve: diversity among species & similarity across species. I am using FAISS, or Facebook AI Similarity Search, along with a GPT-style vector to vectorize and compare images. It actually doesn't compare raw image data, it really just compares vectors through an NN, in a highly dimensional space, which is how most LLMs function. I am honestly not sure if, outside of moving to a MASSIVELY dimensional space (which I just don't think I have the compute power for), the FAISS library is actually going to be capable of comparing nuanced details well enough, to even make this a possibility. It may be that I would have to use very high resolution source material to generate the network, and then require users to provide very high resolution reference material to do lookups, and that may be a way around the issue. Compute power, though, for this kind of thing is not cheap, and there is no way I could do what I had originally planned to do: provide this for free. It would have to be a for-pay service, just to cover the massive compute costs.

I have had some success, but only on a small scale. On a large scale where I could actually publish this to the web for woodworkers around the world to use to identify their obscure woods, at the very least it is going to require an IMMENSE amount of quality image data. A lot of the stuff on hobbithouseinc I am not sure is good enough, mainly not high enough resolution, but there are other quality factors like compression and noise that need to be accounted for as well. This also plays into usage on the user side, where the users would have to provide a good enough quality image of high enough resolution to be able to get a good quality, accurate match. It might work with low quality, small images...but I would have to find a way to manage scoring and ranking to make sure I didn't try to positively id woods from sketchy references. Getting the core system implemented was actually rather easy...dealing with the edge cases and nuanced factors, and then building out a smart enough NN to actually function properly, that's the 10% that is going to require 10000% of the effort... :P

I also hadn't even considered how species change over the years... That'll be interesting to solve. FWIW, for now, I've stuck with the primary names from Wood Database. Long term, if I actually get this thing smart enough to work well enough most of the time, I'll probably link over to Wood Database, and maybe include some scientific names and perhaps a blurb of details as well, on the actual ID site.
 
..but I would have to find a way to manage scoring and ranking to make sure I didn't try to positively id woods from sketchy references.

I can't imaging that will be easy, and perhaps not even possible. As I mentioned, some names of wood will be someone's guess, especially exotics and even common species not local to that person. Respected wood dealers are not wood species ID experts and often name the wood based on the color, texture, what it looks like, or take the word of who they bought the wood from (and they bought it from someone else). It's great to have the names marked on the wood in my shop, but I got most from someone else. Some I'm pretty sure of, some I'm not.

Worse, some species have many names. And some names are used locally for different species (a common example is "ironwood".)

Even common local species are often confused. Unless you have personally harvested the wood from the tree and have have the leaves, bark, flowers, seed pods, or fruit, some are simply a guess. For example Elm and Hackberry both have "wavy bands" of latewood pores. Although the earlywood pores are usually distinctive, there are natural variations within the species and even within the same tree.

Elm_Hackberry.jpg

I once cut some wood from a neighbor's tree. In the 8" at the very center of the 24" diameter tree was some incredible color/figure.
The neighbor said it was elm. The endgrain looked like elm under my microscope. The tree bark definitely did not have the distinctive bark of hackberry so I called it elm. However, a long-experienced turner looked at it and said it was hackberry. I've had to remove several big hackberries here and none of them so far have had this kind of patterning. One tree was about 10' from my shop and at least 30" in diameter. It had no such color and figure. But it sure had the distinctive hackberry bark!

elm_box_comp.jpg elm_box_bottom_IMG_5346.jpg

Who's to know? Many have opinions, but based on what? And what, in the end, does it matter? I still have one piece (I put some oil on the block), and I don't really care what it is - I just wish I could find more!

Blocks from different places in the same tree.
elm_blanks.jpg

Maybe someone can give their opinion from a glance. All that matters to me is I like the wood.

I got interested in wood ID years ago when someone passed around a bowl at a club show&tell. On the bottom was written "cherry". The wood was strongly ring porous and definitely not cherry! I started learning and sampling and studying the end grain pore structure, parenchyma, tyloses, gum deposits, oily and waxy nature, the number of cells across rays, and other distinguishing aids - dry density, UV light, chemical tests, odor, etc. To me, color and figure are the least reliable indicators of unknown species with some exceptions. And when you get to non-hardwoods, everything changes! Wood ID is an interesting hobby, but a lot more complex that I ever imagined. The most useful thing to me is identifying features that can tell me what a piece of wood is NOT.

I'm not trying to be discouraging. Automating wood ID is a noble task but seems overwhelming. I asked Sir Google how many species of trees are in the world. Got this, believable depending on how much one trusts anything AI these days:

There are an estimated 73,300 tree species in the world.
This includes around 9,000 species that have not yet been discovered, according to Purdue University.

The University of Florida estimates there are over 11,000 varieties in North America. I'm assuming many of these are cultivars. Other estimates are nearly 900 species in the US alone.

I might start labeling all my wood as "tree wood." :)

JKJ
 
Well, I am not setting out to catalog 73,300 species of wood, or even 9000. For one, I think a lot of those are going to be subspecies, which is not a level I am interested in delving to. Further, I am not sure it is critically important to identify every single species. There are significantly fewer genus, and fundamentally I am more interested in providing a resource to give woodworkers an idea of what their wood may be, vs. exactly identify out of tens of thousands of nuanced possibilities the specific species and subspecies of the wood they are scanning.

Genus would be a good start, IMO. The approximately 560 woods listed in the Wood Database, would be a fine start, if I can get enough representative sources to train the model well enough to identify them consistently.

Another factor here, too, is that LLM technology is moving at nearly the speed of thought these days. LLMs themselves are now even being used to identify ways to make them better. In six months, the AI landscape will likely see another quantum leap, and a year from now its bound to be unrecognizable. At some point, the technology to train (and maybe even automate gathering source material and its necessary metadata) an effective model will become very viable.

For now, I'm just seeing what I can do. If I could identify fairly consistently within genus, I think that would be a good start. Once I have a start, then I can empower the community of woodworkers who use the service to help expand it, and improve its accuracy. If some exemplar images are actually cataloged wrong, it shouldn't be too hard to give an interested community ways of assisting in splitting (or even merging) cataloged woods so that the model can be refined over time to be more accurate. I figure some kind of consensus approach where more than one qualified individual, vetted to make such changes, would be required to split or merge a type of wood.

In any case, perfection isn't the goal. However there are challenges just to getting to a viable model that can identify woods to a reasonable degree at all, and overcoming those larger issues is my current goal.
 
Since perfection isn't the goal, a spectrum of possibilities might be reasonable.

It might be interesting to consider some things about accurate wood ID. Consider this from wood ID expert Harry Alden who does wood ID for a living:

Overview: https://wood-identification.com/
Wood ID basics: https://wood-identification.com/page/
Interesting specifics: https://wood-identification.com/wood-types/

The interview video, under the "Links" heading well describes some of the issues. It's long but the section at and following 48:00 might be helpful.

I hate to sound discouraging: developing an algorithmic solution is certainly a noble undertaking. IMO: except for some very common and well-known wood, even good photos of the side of a board or the finished surface are not going to provide a universally reliable ID, at best a guess, whether examined by a person or an algorithm. And the guess is easier if the piece is held in the hand by the person. And FAR easier if the provenance can be determined. No problem, of course, if the target audience is happy with opinions and guesses. But they can get those at the local woodturning club.

It will be interesting to follow your progress over the next few months or years.

As for common names of wood, he points out it is not uncommon for a single species to have 100s if common names, locally and internationally.
 
Since perfection isn't the goal, a spectrum of possibilities might be reasonable.

It might be interesting to consider some things about accurate wood ID. Consider this from wood ID expert Harry Alden who does wood ID for a living:

Overview: https://wood-identification.com/
Wood ID basics: https://wood-identification.com/page/
Interesting specifics: https://wood-identification.com/wood-types/

The interview video, under the "Links" heading well describes some of the issues. It's long but the section at and following 48:00 might be helpful.

I hate to sound discouraging: developing an algorithmic solution is certainly a noble undertaking. IMO: except for some very common and well-known wood, even good photos of the side of a board or the finished surface are not going to provide a universally reliable ID, at best a guess, whether examined by a person or an algorithm. And the guess is easier if the piece is held in the hand by the person. And FAR easier if the provenance can be determined. No problem, of course, if the target audience is happy with opinions and guesses. But they can get those at the local woodturning club.

It will be interesting to follow your progress over the next few months or years.

As for common names of wood, he points out it is not uncommon for a single species to have 100s if common names, locally and internationally.

It is always a guess, though. ;) Even when it is a human giving you an ID, if it is an obscure enough wood or strange enough exemplar that you actually need someone to ID it for you, it is most often going to be a guess. Everything you have stated so far, explains why that is the case.

The thing with an AI-powered option, is that overall once trained well enough, it should be able to "guess" better more frequently. Not everyone has a wood expert handy a few houses down the road, or even at a local woodworking club. I certainly don't. I've taken many pieces of woods I can't identify to the local Woodcraft and Rockler, where there are (or have been) knowledgable guys, and its still almost always a guess.

I've been programming for about 35 years, and FWIW this is not really an "algorithmic" solution. Not in any classical sense... Use of an NN-based model, while algorithms are involved, is more like how a human identifies things, than being a strictly ridgid, unyeilding, unbending algorithm that processes things in a specific manner every time. The benefit of an AI based approach is that as the technologies underpinning this kind of technology improve, which is almost daily with monstrous advancements every few months or so, the effectiveness of the model can constantly be revised and refined to get better results, without really having to change the bulk of the product overall. I've extracted this small core of functionality, Python code that leverages FAISS and a few other py libs for performing AI/ML work and math (namely vectorization and vector math), out from the bulk of the product. So as things change and improve, I can redesign and rebuild that core, so long as it maintains the same general API for the rest of the app to plug into, and its capabilities can improve over time.

There is also the whole dimensionality aspect. One of the reasons current LLMs are so good at producing reasonable to excellent answers the vast majority of the time (they aren't perfect, but they are DARN GOOD), is because they operate in a dimensional space far beyond the reality we know and understand. Instead of three dimensions, its hundreds to thousands or tens of thousands. With very high dimensionality, accuracy improves. I'm currently working with 512 or 1024 dimensions, but that is pushing my computer, and support for higher dimensionality currently costs a fair amount. However at some point these things will become simple commodities, and I suspect I should be able to push dimensionality much farther, which should solve some of the accuracy issues on its own.

As for naming and all that. I still think a community-based approach that allows users of the system to contribute details, can help suss out nuances and improve descriptions over time. Again, this is never going to be perfect, I have always known that. It is not perfect now when you ask humans...I've asked many times across a few different woodworking forums for wood ids. Its usually a guess, and in the end most of the time, I end up going with the "consensus" of many replies in the end. However, there are aspects of an AI model that I think can help here, and improve the guesses in the long run. In fact, if/when I am able to figure out how to train an effective model with images, I think adding a model trained on text-based knowledge that describes wood characteristics could also be used to hone results, as well as produce useful descriptions to users who query for wood ids. If community-sourced knowledge could be factored into that additional model over time, that too could improve the IDs of woods.

Anyway, this is just an experimental project at this point. The primary need ATM is source material to train the visual model on. The core functionality is really not that much code. I mean, I think I originally wrote about 250 lines of Python with a few third-party libraries like FAISS, to get the initial core AI service working. It may have grown to 300-400 lines now. In any case, its not much code. Most of this is just relying on existing OSS libraries for LLMs, ML, AI, and math. As much as I dislike Python as a language, the sheer volume of available libraries for this kind of work is phenomenal, and greatly reduced the effort required to actually write the code. The real work has been training the model, which demands data, and gathering the data, cataloging it along with the necessary associated metadata. Gathering images, and doing the work to associate them with SOME kind of wood description, has been by and far the VAST majority of the effort (and what may ultimately kill the effort in the long run...I guess it depends on just how much work it becomes to maintain the source material for trainings). This is of course, limited by my own knowledge and my own ability to source material for training. There are good resources out there (and now I'll be adding wood-identification.com as a potential source for metadata and knowledge to determine that metadata) that I rely on, but in the long run, I think it will ultimately take a broader scale community effort to really break down the metadata and associations with various wood images, to produce a more optimal model. It'll be some time before I am able to build a starter model good enough, to even allow a product to be released or a community to form though, so, its just ongoing work right now: find images, filter them to best exemplars, find and associate closest relevant metadata, repeat for many woods, etc. and periodically rebuild the model.
 
Back
Top