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Help with initial requirements for dust control

G

Gerald Rutledge

Joined
Feb 8, 2022
Messages
70
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45
Location
Reidsville, NC
Hello,
I have finally gotten to the point where I might get to start using my lathe before it rusts away in the basement. I have used it a few times, and each time it is without any duct control. It sucks...

I have started thinking about requirements, and have hit the wall quickly with what seems like a problematic, nebulous subject for nearly anyone new to any woodworking hobby (I am not new to woodworking at all, nor to using a dust collection system, I'm just new to setting up a dust system). CFM, filtration, PPM, static pressure, low pressure high flow and the opposite. I have a fair amount of knowledge in physics and understand a very few principles of ducting -- minimize turns and use gentle sweeps, big pipe is better than small (maybe?), smooth interior duct surface etc.

My shop is tiny. I have about 300 square feet at the most. This will make things easier on my air filter, but without point collection, that stage of collection is not going to help much when the dust is being shoved right up into my face. So I am focused on point dust collection first. My first project will be to turn a bellmouth, or try some version of Robo's saddle-shaped nozzle do know that much. :)

I need to serve a mitre saw (first branch), a 14" lathe (second branch), a workbench third (an overhead drop for a 2.5" flex hose for hand tools and benchtop cleanup), and at the other end, another 2.5" drop. Somewhere before that last drop, I may add one more branch for a band saw, but I don't have one yet.

My initial thinking was to run a main trunk; a single section of 4" or 6" ducting across the ceiling, which is 16 linear feet across the room. This trunk will branch off to service each of these areas. My basement shop has a wall between it and the crawlspace, so I am toying with the idea of putting the noisy bits on the other side of the wall, but a little concerned about humidity. I also have a whole-house vac in that exact spot in the crawlspace, but it probably hasn't been used for 20 years, I have no idea how capable it would be, nor how hard it would be to convert it, add a different way of turning it on, and so forth. Doesn't seem worth it, unless someone convinces me that it is.

I can do my own wiring, so I can add service where I want it (there is already an outlet/juice right there for the house vac), by a creating a switched outlet where the switch is on the shop side and the outlet on the crawlspace side, and then just leave the dust collector on. Gotta check the NEC to see if that is kosher; can't see why not, though.

I have done a good bit of drain plumbing here, so I will add cleanouts where appropriate.

I do plan on getting a cyclonic separator.

I also plan on going back and finding other posts here, I know there was a very good one related to air filtration, but I cannot get a handle on the needed CFM for the dust control unit, especially when it comes to lathe collection points.


Here are my initial questions:

I have read that PVC creates static buildup and causes clogs, and probably so does the internal shoulder on PVC fittings. Is this concern overblown? I can work with PVC or metal HVAC ducting. It seems like it would be easier to reconfigure metal ducting and install it so that there are no shoulders, unless I don't use cement on the PVC joints in strategic places.

Should I splurge on 6" ducting, or is that overkill? What other drawbacks would it have over 4" ducting?

How many CFM are needed for my spiffy bellmouth/saddle to effectively remove a reasonable amount of dust? I don't care about the chips in the same way as I care about the sub-5mu particles.

Should I have any concern about using a switched outlet and leaving the collector unit on at all times?

Should I be concerned about crawlspace humidity ruining my equipment? My furnace is down there, and its not rusty, nor is the water heater. I also have plans to get better vapor control in there "soon".

Since I am more focused on the fine dust, which one is better for collecting it: low volume + high pressure, or the opposite?

What else am I missing, or what other pro-tips come to mind?

Thanks in advance
 
I am neither advocating for or against this, just letting you know that the option is there. But the fine folks at Oneida were very helpful in answering questions like this when I bought my cyclone. I sketched out where I wanted to install the dust collector, and where the tools were, and they helped with the layout and design.
 
The fine dust is the hardest to collect, and if you believe Bill Pentz (I do) it takes quite a bit of air flow (1000 CFM is a number that comes up often) to really capture the finest dust. My experience with DC is limited to the flatwork section of my shop, I don't collect at the lathe unless I'm sanding. But here's my opinion on some of your questions.

6" is needed for the high air volumes I mentioned earlier, it's almost impossible to get that much air through a 4" duct. But the blower and duct have to be sized appropriately... it's a waste of money to put a very small DC on 6" duct, and likewise to put a 5 HP behemoth on 4" duct.

I've always had PVC ductwork on my systems (3 different systems in 3 different shops) and while you can get a shock from static build up, I've not see it ever cause a clog...or a fire. Another thing that comes up is grounding the ducting to prevent it. If you use metal there not a problem, simply run a ground wire to the pipe. PVC is a lot harder, and having grounding wire running all over the ducting is a royal PITA (trust me on this).

the crawl space shouldn't be a problem with rust, but consider where the DC exhaust goes. I don't think you'll want that much air blowing into a space with a vented furnace or gas water heater. The pressure may cause problems with them. A lot of folks who have the DC in a separate space set up a return air arrangement back to the shop.

Forget using the central vac, not enough CFM.

Consider how you'll know when the dust bin is full when the DC is out of sight. There are alarm systems, I have one that works OK, but you don't want to overfill the bin.

Lastly, miter saws are a tough nut to crack, even with a world class system. The best approach seems to be a very large enclosure around the back side with a lot of air flow.

Only my opinions, and i wish you the best of luck figuring this out. You might want to visit the Bill Pentz site and check his FAQ section first for more details than you'll ever need.
 
I think Oneida is your best bet for an efficient system, and they can aid with design. Their systems do have the smallest footprints too. As for 6 inch ducts, that would depend on how much air flow you have, again, Oneida. An air scrubber, as I call them, will remove most of the fine stuff that escapes, though where to put it might be a problem given the size of your shop and how much head room you have.

robo hippy
 
Agree with others on Oneida. They helped design my system and had me put in 7” pipe with reductions to 6” and 5” for the tools depending on type. Since I bought pipe from them (already had the cyclone from my last shop) they did the design for free. If you don’t buy from them, I seem to recall they charge a nominal fee.
 
Have you read Bill Pentz's site?

Dust Collection Research - Home

This site is all about dust collection and protection. It shares the risks from fine dust exposure, how to measure your risks and how to effectively protect yourself and those close to you from airborne dust hazards. Fine dust is so extensively studied that researchers call it PM short for...
billpentz.com

I was pricing out a DC system a couple of years ago myself, although I was not able to purchase it at the time. This site has a lot of useful information. A lot of people ragged on his blowing out of proportion the impact of dust particles and breathing them in, however, I've suffered quite a lot from it (I started turning in 2020, when all forms of respirators were reserved for frontline defenders, and the only thing I could use was a cheap blue medical mask...ran into a lot of problems!), and I don't think what he covers with regards to the dangers of dust is overkill at all. He has a lot of useful information about the physics, as well as some very useful information on the required CFM that will pick up not just the larger chips and dust, but also the fine dust. As odd as it may seem, the fine dust is actually the harder to capture. These pages cover those details:

Dust Collection Research - Dust Collection Basics

This site helps small shop workers understand the risks from fine dust exposure and how to effectively protect themselves and their families from airborne dust hazards. Fine dust is so extensively studied that researchers call it PM short for particle material. A Google search on PM Health Risks...
www.billpentz.com

Some things I learned when I was researching, that I still remember, were:

* CFM is cubic feet per minute, a volume collected
* FPM is feet per minute, a flow rate
* You can collect a certain CFM at a given FPM flow rate, the two are not interchangeable, they describe different aspects of the system
* The CFM ratings Pentz comes up with are generally to collect the fine dust, which is the real challenge (and will be MORE than your run of the mill consumer grade DC system!!)
* Consumer grade DC systems are generally not worth the money (i.e. the lower cost Jet, Laguna, Powermatic, etc. collectors) except in a few cases
* Consumer grade DC systems rarely have sufficient filters to actually keep the collected dust from blowing back into the air (1-2 micron, some state 0.5 micron but collection efficiency often doesn't measure up at that level)
* Consumer grade DC systems generally don't offer enough horsepower to ensure sufficient CFM over the length of ducting at the machines (1-2HP isn't even close enough, 3-5hp is where you'll likely want to be)

When I was pricing out my system, I was looking at the Clearvue CV1700, which was a 5hp system with a Pentz vortex and two of their filters (600 sqft surface area) rated for 99.999% efficiency capturing 0.5 micron particles. For my shop, which is 11x25 feet (about 275 sqft), I was planning on 6" ducting with drop downs to 4" as necessary. I also had some modifications planned for my table saw (single 2.5" port, no top collection, which I was going to remedy). I was going to run 6" strait to my lathes, and use bellmouth ports (the physics of a bellmouth is very interesting, and effectively "bends" the suction force around the surface of the bellmouth to greatly widen the collection range and even capture dust from slightly behind the port).

Sad thing is, ClearVue has closed business. I thought they had the best systems available, and the cost was a steal (their 5hp CV1700 with two filters was much better priced than any 5hp system from anyone else at the time, by at least a grand), at least at the time. My second choice was Oneida. Today's choice is Oneida. It is a good deal more expensive than what I was looking at before...IIRC the cost was around $3500, and a comparable Oneida today is at least $4500. The Oneida filters are good, but I am not exactly sure how they correspond to the CV filters...currently Oneida states their filters are rated 99.97% efficient at capturing 0.3 microns, which is better than most consumer grade systems, plus, I would trust Oneida more than say the ratings for any of your run of the mill 1.5HP DC systems from Grizzly, ShopFox, Jet, Laguna, etc. Most state 1 miron, however I've seen some state down to 0.2 micron without actually specifying an efficiency factor. One thing about Oneida...unlike ClearVue, where you kind of had to pick all the various parts of your system yourself, Oneida offers full packages of complete systems ready to go, which is nice. IIRC, this is the one I've been mulling over:


My original plan was to use metal ducting. Main reasoning being I didn't want to deal with the static charge...I've had enough strong static shocks in my time, I didn't want that all over my shop. However, that rapidly became cost-prohibitive, as metal ducting is quite a bit more expensive than PVC piping (and even more so today!) I sadly never built the system, so I never completely priced out exactly how much it was going to take to get 6" primary ducting to each machine in my shop. I did spend some time figuring out how people dealt with static charge when using PVC systems, and there are a number of fairly detailed pages and threads out there where people describe what they have done. One of the ideas that I considered, was running foil tape along the length inside of each section of PVC, which would then attach to copper wire from the outside of the pipes, which would then be grounded. Alterations included winding wire around the outside of the pipes as well. Someone mentioned some kind of anti-static spray coating, which I think I decided was cost prohibitive in the long run. Someone mentioned that a foil tape or wires run lenthwise along the inside and grounded through tapped holes to outside grounded wires, would only remove static charge from a small area around the wire, leaving a lot of charge behind. I never got a chance to explore any of this, of course... However, PVC was a significantly cheaper option in the long run, so, its worth looking into ways to ground a PVC system and draw off some of the charge regardless. Unless you have the funds, then metal ducting would be the way to go, IMO.

Also don't forget about blast gates. You don't want every port in the system open at all times. You'll lose your gathering power if you do. You will want a gate at each port for the system. If you have setups that require multiple ports (i.e. my Jet bandsaw actually has two 4" collection ports built in, one right at the slot to the under compartment and wheel area, so it captures dust being brought down by the blade immediately, and then another port near the bottom front of the compartment to collect any dust that does get in), you would want to gate the full size duct before you split. I was looking at some powered gates myself, as my original plan was to mount them at the tops of risers that ran from my machines to the main duct that I was mounting near my ceiling. A bit of electrical work and a remote control hub, and I'd have been able to use a remote with numbered buttons to control each gate. That too, increased the cost of the system a lot, so I ended up moving the gates to right behind the collection points, or right behind where a fixed duct/pipe was converted into a flex tube (couple cases where that was necessary). In any case...plan out the gates, and figure out how you'll need to handle those. Also, FWIW, figure out where you might need some flex tube as well, as sometimes you won't always be able to connect a ridgid pipe directly to a port or something like that, and if you need flexibility in positioning your port, then you might need a short run of some 6" flexible tube (say for the lathes, if you turn things of varying length, you'll likely want this.) Another case where I needed some flexible tubing was to connect to my belt and disc sander, and for the modifications I was making to my table saw (I was going to split the original duct into two, and have a flex tube I could position right over where the blade was to capture any dust from above, as well as connect to the port on the back.)

Finally, make sure you can power the system and meet any local regulations. An annoying factor in my original plans, was I had to have a specific kind of cutoff switch to meet local Colorado regulations. So it took me some time to one find all the regulations, an two figure out where to source the parts and how to wire it all up. This was for a 240V 1PH system, BTW. Something you probably don't want to skimp on, if you have any regulations to comply with.
 
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Start here duct design. Work out your cfm requirements and static pressure losses, then select a blower of the proper size with effective filters. You probably want 6" at the lathe so you will need at least a 2 hp blower. Higher quality blowers will have a published fan curve showing the volume available at different static pressures- don't believe the claims of xxxx cfm from a unit with no specified static pressure. I recommend metal spiral duct and fittings from blastgateco.com. Small (2.5" pipe) doesn't mesh that well with typical low pressure high volume dust blowers so you may want a good shop/vac/dust extractor for your small tools, or you could use your existing central vac if it has adequate filtration. Oneida may have a setup that will hancle both large and small ducts, they are a good outfit. Make sure you have adequate switching - a typical lighting switch does not provide the same protection as a magnetic starter.

Clean air is expensive but an important investment in your lungs. Don't expect to get all the chips from the lathe, especially with green wood. Even with a central DC you may want an airhat of some sort. A borrowed or boughten air tester like the Dylos will tell you how effective your setup is.
 
My experience: after using a shop vac for years I installed a 5hp ClearVue cyclone (Pentz design) when I built my stand-alone shop. The thing is incredibly powerful. (They had a video at one time of a 30' measuring tape being sucked up a vertical drop and dumped into the bin!) I've watched dust come off a long spindle and travel maybe 24" horizontally until it was picked up near the headstock.

I understand from reading Pentz that the height and geometry of the cyclone cone makes a difference in the particle separation. The ClearVue is tall - with a 30 gal bin it barely fits under a 10' ceiling.

I use 6" PVC for the main ducts, split into 4" at various machines (three 4" ducts at the bandsaw). A 4" duct even picks up nearly all dust form a 22-44 drum sander, based on my Dylos air quality monitor. Everything has blast gates, only one open at a time. (BTW, I found a bunch of 6" PVC piping in a scrap pile at a big local piping company - they threw everything there that was chipped or cracked but I used a lot of it and it was all at free. But 6" fittings are not cheap!)

I ran one main 6" duct down the length of the shop above the ceiling. The turns are gradual. I put inspection/cleanout plugs at the ends of any straight runs (accessible through removable panels in the ceiling) but the thing works so well there's never anything left in the ducts. Rather than use flex or try to bend 6" ducts I made sweeping curves by piecing together multiple 22.5-deg fittings.

DC_ducts4_sweep_20141228_194845_465.jpg
Note: if the cyclone is powerful enough you can "get away with" some compromises in the duct design.

At the bandsaw, I can keep one pickup closed or position on the table as needed.
bandsaw_DC_comp1.jpg

Positionable pickup at the lathe:
lathe_dust_pickup.jpg

Plan carefully - it's so much effort to move a machine and the ducts!

Since the cyclone is SO loud I installed it (and a big air compressor) in a sound-insulated closet and returned filtered air to the shop (since my shop is climate controlled.) I check the quality of the filtering with the particle counter. I put all controls in the main shop and turn it on and off with little keyfob transmitters spaced around the room.

To avoid piping the cyclone noise into the main shop I built a plywood return duct with baffles and several changes of direction and coated the inside with rubber spray. Much of the return duct is up above the ceiling between the trusses with extra insulation. My construction sketch of the return duct:

Dust_collector_baffle_small.jpg

Another option to filtering and returning air to the inside is do dump the exhaust air outside. Some people dump it on the ground or into a narrow shed built on the side of the building. The noise might be a problem if you have close neighbors. I don't vent outside but can still hear the cyclone halfway across my front field outside the insulated building! Maybe some of the smaller and less powerful or better insulated cyclones will work Ok with less noise, don't know.

If doing it all again I'd do exactly the same thing.

JKJ
 
Lots of sound advice here. Regardless of how much you spend, how big the motor and cfm, or the type and size of duct, at the lathe I simply cannot recommend enough to locate your suction inlet inside of an enclosure. A box. 4 sides and a back, with the inlet pulling air precisely from where it should- the air that surrounds the spinning wood. The box will be situated exactly at the throw-off position of the dust stream (behind the lathe), caught in the air flow being drawn into the box, and drawn away into the collector. Control  where your inlet air comes from and you'll be far ahead in the battle against fine airborne dust. This is no different from how things are accomplished in industry. Think of how CNC wood lathes make bulk turnings- the whole operation is inside of a box. Here are a couple more discussion threads for more info.

S

Thread 'Richard Raffan's modest shop, with dust collection details'

I didn't see this as a previous thread. Here is a video from a couple years ago of Richard Raffan giving a tour through his small shop, now based around a smaller lathe, a Vicmarc VL150 (12" swing). (I'll presume in the years since his old VHS tape videos that he still used the big VL300 lathe.) He shows how a very complete, yet dedicated turning operation can be established in a small space, something resembling a bedroom in an average house.
View: https://youtu.be/twuFE1-6qB0?


If the dust collection catches your attention, here is the same setup...
  • Like

S

Thread 'Raffan's dust hood part 2, my version'

As I started in this thread (with 2 videos) https://www.aawforum.org/community/...dest-shop-with-dust-collection-details.23325/ which wandered and meandered with a lot of good information, here is the final result of my version of the Richard Raffan-inspired dust hood I built for my Oneway 1224.

Raffan, nor Tomislav Tomasic in his video, had no plans to build it. It's easy to see that their setups are pretty casual in design, as is mine. Will my plastic bowl collect more effectively than Raffan's angle cut pipe? I don't know, but my bowl hood was my...
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My "air scrubber" has an infared type remote which has to be pointed at the machine to turn it on. My Oneida system has the "Lone Ranger" system which is FM frequency and I don't have to point it at all. I can turn the system on from outside the shop. It came with my system, but I think Oneida uses a different system. I got more on/off buttons from Penn State.

robo hippy
 
I have been trying to put together reasonable dust collection on a budget. If I had $10k to spend on a first class system I would. That said, here is what I am using. It works reasonably well for an occasional turner like me.

I started with a 2hp harbor freight DC. Very quickly realized it was more of a dust recycler than filter, and it didn’t move that much air. After a bit of experimenting, this is where I am now. I use the blower and motor from the HF unit, but nothing else.

The blower blows directly into a Merv 15 filter from Wynn environmental. Mounted on a piece of plywood with the blower on one side and filter on the other. I opened up the intake on the blower to 6”

I have a Super Dust Deputy cyclone. It’s connected to the blower with about 30’ of 6” hvac duct from Home Depot. The SDD is right next to my lathe. For any elbows, I used two adjusted to go 45deg each. Since only very fine dust gets past the SDD, the 6” pipe works fine, with almost no pressure loss.

I use 5” hvac duct from the SDD to the machines. With these changes, I’d guessing it moves 3x as much air as the stock harbor freight DC.

At the lathe I use a 5” to 6” reducer as a bell mouth in a box ala Richard Raffan from the post above. The box works so much better than a bell mouth alone.

For the bandsaw and table saw the hose reduces to 4”. At some point, I will upgrade to 5” and add a second line for the bandsaw to catch the stuff that lands on the table.

The blower is mounted 30’ away to reduce noise. I also built an enclosure of sorts using sound blankets over a frame. I use the $19 remote control outlets from Harbor Freight to turn it on and off.

I’d love to see someone's offer a quieter solution. I don’t use the DC all the time because of the noise. Only for sanding, bandsaw and table saw. I have wondered about the Grizzly “quiet” series. I’d need to see it working in person to see if it’s really quieter or if it’s just marketing.
 
Mike Novak said:
I have been trying to put together reasonable dust collection on a budget. If I had $10k to spend on a first class system I would. That said, here is what I am using. It works reasonably well for an occasional turner like me.

I started with a 2hp harbor freight DC. Very quickly realized it was more of a dust recycler than filter, and it didn’t move that much air. After a bit of experimenting, this is where I am now. I use the blower and motor from the HF unit, but nothing else.

The blower blows directly into a Merv 15 filter from Wynn environmental. Mounted on a piece of plywood with the blower on one side and filter on the other. I opened up the intake on the blower to 6”
Click to expand...
Interesting - I started at the same place and wound up with a system virtually identical to what Mike describes above. My shop is relatively small - just 500 square feet total, but this system works just fine. I have not yet built an enclosure for it, but then I don't find the noise too objectionable.

I do use a plastic bag on the blower mount bottom to catch the last of the dust before it hits the Wynn filter, but that's the only difference. IMain ducting is 6", 'm using 4" flex hose from the drop to the lathe and a 4" bell mouth at the intake.

This system works very well for relatively short runs of less than 20'. I have been planning to move the mechanicals and ducting to a large crawl space under my shop with an enclosure and a return air vent to reduce noise and reduce run lengths even more.
 
The control package+bin sensor/alarm I bought with the ClearVue cyclone came with a Carlon "Heavy Duty Remote Control" with a key fob control.
This switches 110 volts to turn a 220v contactor (relay) to turn the cyclone on and off.

The instructions were to wire things like this:
DC-Controls_typical_with_text.jpg

Instead, I bought a box from HD and combined everything into a neater package, shown below.
The remote receiver is the black thing in the right side of the plastic box.
The switch with light is to disable the system.

On the wall in the shop.
DC_control_box.jpg DC_electrical_shop_s.jpg

Inside the insulated closet. Includes subpanels with cyclone/compressor breakers and a disconnect for the cyclone motor and the 110v circuits.
Since I'm elderly and feeble-minded I lablel everything.
DC_electrical_closet.jpg

Extra remotes were not cheap from ClearVue, so I bought additional identical remote packages from Amazon, sold to control outdoor lights. Each included a key fob so I have enough to put them close to the lathe, bandsaw, etc.
That gives me extra receiver electronics in case of a failure some day. All is still OK after almost 10 years.

JKJ
 
I am cringing a bit at spending as much on a dust collector as I spent on the lathe.

My lathe sits against an exterior wall of my basement. I now wonder if I could set it up to just exhaust everything right out into the air. I could set up a hacky filter to catch the bigger stuff and simply forget the rest. Problem?

Before you answer that dust could screw up a blower motor, or worse start a fire, I can either look for a sealed motor, or possibly set it up as a Venturi system, although there could be some negative cfm implications to that route. Still just spitballing here, and I will still get an “air scrubber” for the dust that escapes, but thats out of scope.

Thanks for all the info, there was some good stuff in these, such as not putting pressure into the crawlspace where the furnace is. I wouldn’t have considered that before I discovered the mistake the hard way. I knew that drafts and pressure imbalances play havoc with a gas furnace, but may not have connected the dots since it is a large space (floor height is about 5’ above grade, makes working in there SO much nicer). Appreciate the replies.

I am also still toying with ideas of putting a couple of collection ports in between the runners of the lathe bed just on either side of the banjo. They would probably be too small all by themselves, but might be able to assist the bellmouth(s).
 
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Gerald Rutledge said:
My lathe sits against an exterior wall of my basement. I now wonder if I could set it up to just exhaust everything right out into the air. I could set up a hacky filter to catch the bigger stuff and simply forget the rest. Problem?
Click to expand...

A good friend does that. He has a big hole in the wall just on the far side of the late and mounts a powerful fan in front. Anything that comes off the late, dust, chips, gets blown out into the yard. The down side is his little shop has no AC or heat so turning is seasonal. When not in use, he covers the hole with a piece of plywood.

He does a similar thing in the house for his elderly dog. Made a bed with a vertical hvac filter on the a frame at the end backed up by a box fan. Pulls all the dust, dog hair, etc into the filter for occasionally cleaning.

JKJ
 
Gerald Rutledge said:
I am cringing a bit at spending as much on a dust collector as I spent on the lathe.

My lathe sits against an exterior wall of my basement. I now wonder if I could set it up to just exhaust everything right out into the air. I could set up a hacky filter to catch the bigger stuff and simply forget the rest. Problem?

Before you answer that dust could screw up a blower motor, or worse start a fire, I can either look for a sealed motor, or possibly set it up as a Venturi system, although there could be some negative cfm implications to that route. Still just spitballing here, and I will still get an “air scrubber” for the dust that escapes, but thats out of scope.

Thanks for all the info, there was some good stuff in these, such as not putting pressure into the crawlspace where the furnace is. I wouldn’t have considered that before I discovered the mistake the hard way. I knew that drafts and pressure imbalances play havoc with a gas furnace, but may not have connected the dots since it is a large space (floor height is about 5’ above grade, makes working in there SO much nicer). Appreciate the replies.

I am also still toying with ideas of putting a couple of collection ports in between the runners of the lathe bed just on either side of the banjo. They would probably be too small all by themselves, but might be able to assist the bellmouth(s).
Click to expand...

Blowing dust outside is apparently standard for commercial shops. Thing about the outdoors, except in particularly arid locales, is it is usually more humid, as well as being more ionized, and the humidity and ionization will capture the dust and bring it to ground. That point is actually covered in the Bill Pentz site I linked, somewhere. So it is an option.

Dust won't really screw up an impeller, but, the larger chips and such could. If you are going to say mount a blower on the wall, you might still want to just pick up a basic bucket vortex system and connect your intake from the lathe to that, then that to the blower. That, at least, would force the larger chips and such into the bucket, adding a layer of protection to the blower.

Something else. Is the lathe the ONLY machine you intend to collect dust for? You mention a couple of drops, but, it did not sound like you actually had machines at them. If that is the case, and you aren't planning on collecting dust for a bunch of machines you already have, then you probably don't need a $4k DC system and another several thousand in ducting...yet anyway. You could get away with less, for sure. So, a few options...


1) Have you tried a shop vac solution yet? If not, IMO, it is well worth starting here, before you invest in a larger system, if your only real machine needing collection is the lathe. (The miter saw, you can easily just hook up a shop vac, or even a regular vac...) It will be significantly less costly as well. While it won't collect every spec of dust like a properly sized and powered DC system, it will capture most. And if this is your first foray into collecting dust and you have only one machine that needs it, you might as well start simpler and cheaper. I picked up a Fein shop vac, I think it was a bit over $200. Like most shop vacs it uses 1 1/4" hosing, but the inlet on the vacuum itself supported 2.5" hose with a bit of jury rigging (did not need to modify the unit, just rig up a seal for the hose). I then picked up a bucket vortex system, and connected that to my vac with a short hose, then from that with a splitter, split it to both sides of my shop. On both sides I have a long run, and one branch. The first branches run to my lathes. On one side I have my sharpening and sanding station, and I have the other branch connected to the my disc/belt sander. On the opposite side of the shop, the other end of the hose runs out and hangs out for whatever I need to attach it to. Most of the time that is my table saw or bandsaw. Now, that run is a bit long, so it is not quite as effective as it could be. However its the nature of my shop and not much can be done about it. So, my single little shop vac, is actually capable of collecting at four different ports. I have blast gates at each, of course.

2) Use a consumer-grade shop vac, but do the same thing: vent the dust outside. If you think you can do that, then dust outside conditions will bring the dust to the ground. Of course, you then have that problem, dust on the ground... Thing about most consumer grade DC is they don't capture the finest dust, and will often blow it right back into the shop air. Most consumer grade DC filters, use that "rake" solution to knock dust off the filter into the bin, which will usually reduce the filter quality rather quickly if you use the darn thing. A 1-2 micron filter that you only blow off, will capture a decent amount of dust, but it is still going to return some of it to the atmosphere. The stuff it returns, is going to kind of be blasted back in, so it will float around for a while. Its not a perfect solution, but, you could spend $1500 on an entry level consumer grade DC, keep it close to the lathe, and run a full sized flex hose from the DC to your lathe without much issue. If the inlet is 4" or 6" you just run a hose from the DC right to the lathe which should only be a few feet, and that should work well enough.

3) Another option is to forego a dust collection system, and just get an overhead air filter. If you aren't turning a ton, and not necessarily producing a ton of dust, then an air filter will clean the dust out of the air. If you get a consumer grade DC, you probably want one of these anyway, to clean up the very fine dust the DC can't filter and pumps back into the air. Of course, this won't capture the shavings and chips right at the lathe. Thing is, you won't really be collecting a lot of that anyway, unless you DO get a sufficiently powerful DC to start with (i.e. a 3-5hp unit, which is where the cost balloons.) A consumer grade DC with only a short run of flex hose to just one machine, should be able to capture most, but you'll still likely need to clean up some after each job.

Based on something you said about drops to workbenches, it sounds like you want "waste cleanup" as kind of a function of your DC. For that, IMO, you would be just fine keeping a mobile shop vac on hand. I have two shop vacs. One the Fein brand, which I never move and sits in a corner and does my point of production collection (while I'm turning or sawing.) The other is an older ShopVac brand, and its my mobile shop vac. When I'm turning, its usually sitting right there, and when dust and shavings pile up enough I just flip it on for a moment, suck everything up, turn it off and get back to work. Even if you had a nice powerful DC system, you are likely to still need to do cleanup. For my own original plans, I had planned to drop a bunch of floor sweeps all around my shop. That was in fact part of the motivation for the remote control blast gates, so I could have each of them gated, and not have to crawl around and reach underneath benches and whatnot to open them. The goal was to use them to swept floor debris into and all that. I had a bunch of people tell me they were not really as effective as they sound, and there were potential risks with other things getting sucked in that could potentially damage an impeller, etc. The same people said there WOULD be stuff to clean up, even with a big powerful DC system. It won't collect everything.

For cleanup, I actually find a broom and a fat dust pan are actually the fastest ways of cleaning things up anyway. You can sit and suck for hours. Or you can spend 10 minutes sweeping and scooping into a bin and your just done. Well, you might then use a vac to clean up the fine remnants, but its still just a lot faster to sweep the big piles of dust, shavings, chips, pieces of sandpaper, etc. and just toss it in a bin.
 
For flat work I’ve thought and done a bunch along the lines others have covered. Going from a modified harbor freight to a 3hp unit with tool modifications to make the most of 6” lines. I’d say a lathe is a whole order of magnitude more messy than any other fixed tool. At best you can get the inlet somewhat close to the work where on other tools you can get it close to the cutter or even surrounding the cutter, such as a router table or table saw blade guard. To compensate requires a lot of airflow and have it consistently on. Even then I wear PPE. One good thing, with a good filter and airflow a dust collector can serve as your air cleaner. With high CFM it’ll turn over the air in a 300 sq/ft room quickly.
 
Ross Berning said:
I’d say a lathe is a whole order of magnitude more messy than any other fixed tool. At best you can get the inlet somewhat close to the work where on other tools you can get it close to the cutter
Click to expand...

I the inlet nozzle at my lathe is on an adjustable arm and I'll put it very close.

Another thing, I often turn acrylic and the plastic strands tend to ball up around the work and the spindle and make a bird's nest. With the DC inlet close, I can often start a long cut and the very fine single plastic strand will come off the work and be continuously pulled into the nozzle leaving the work clear. I've never looked for the strands in the bin but I'll bet some are over 10' long.

JKJ
 
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