Hollowing System and Questions

[David Wyke]

I’m looking to start hollowing this summer and currently look at the Lyle Jamieson system.
Does anyone have suggestions or used this system?
Also, are most hollow forms end grain or side grain? Once turned or twice turned?
Thanks!

 

[JeffSmith]

I’ve had the Jamieson system for many years - home built from information that used to be available on his website. A pretty simple build, the hardest part for me was getting up to speed on welding technique after a 40 year layoff…(hadn’t welded since college days).
I find the system works very well for me when I need to use it. Very stable and easy to control. I bought the boring bar, a few hss cutters and a setup for Hunter carbide cutters from Lyle. The Hunter cutters get the most use. Also bought his laser attachment setup, since converted to a camera system.
Since I had the welding mojo back (mostly) and a borrowed mig rig, I also put together a steady rest from TJ Combs (sp?) plans available online. Both were fairly simple builds using ww tools I had on hand.

I’m not going to comment on end v face grain or once v twice turning as its a “horses for courses” discussion for the most part.

 

[hockenbery]

I’m looking to start hollowing this summer and currently look at the Lyle Jamieson system.
Does anyone have suggestions or used this system?
Also, are most hollow forms end grain or side grain? Once turned or twice turned?
Thanks!

Consider getting a class or a mentor.

I’ve used the Jamieson system for about 25 years. I reccomend it. It will take an assortment of hollowing bars.
I built my backrest Lyle wasn’t selling them. Lyle has lent me back rests several times for demos when he was doing the trade show.
His back rest is worth the investment.
Starting with a Jamieson bar is a good option. They work fine. I use Lyle’s 1.5” bar..

Most often I use the Trent Bosch bars and ancient Stewart bars. For bigger stuff I have Lyle’s 1.5” bar and a custom bar made by CA Savoy.

I would say most hollowforms are hollowed through the endgrain.
Most of my forms are hollowed through the face grain often with a natural edge.
Here are some bleached box elder 2 endgrain & 1 faces grain
A couple of forms hollowed through the face grain with natural edge openings

 

[David Wyke]

I’ve had the Jamieson system for many years - home built from information that used to be available on his website. A pretty simple build, the hardest part for me was getting up to speed on welding technique after a 40 year layoff…(hadn’t welded since college days).
I find the system works very well for me when I need to use it. Very stable and easy to control. I bought the boring bar, a few hss cutters and a setup for Hunter carbide cutters from Lyle. The Hunter cutters get the most use. Also bought his laser attachment setup, since converted to a camera system.
Since I had the welding mojo back (mostly) and a borrowed mig rig, I also put together a steady rest from TJ Combs (sp?) plans available online. Both were fairly simple builds using ww tools I had on hand.

I’m not going to comment on end v face grain or once v twice turning as its a “horses for courses” discussion for the most part.

Thank you. I have looked at the Hunter cutters and would most likely use some of those. I have talked with Lyle and like his system.

 

[David Wyke]

Consider getting a class or a mentor.

I’ve used the Jamieson system for about 25 years. I reccomend it. It will take an assortment of hollowing bars.
I built my backrest Lyle wasn’t selling them. Lyle has lent me back rests several times for demos when he was doing the trade show.
His back rest is worth the investment.
Starting with a Jamieson bar is a good option. They work fine. I use Lyle’s 1.5” bar..

Most often I use the Trent Bosch bars and ancient Stewart bars. For bigger stuff I have Lyle’s 1.5” bar and a custom bar made by CA Savoy.

I would say most hollowforms are hollowed through the endgrain.
Most of my forms are hollowed through the face grain often with a natural edge.
Here are some bleached box elder 2 endgrain & 1 faces grainView attachment 60781
A couple of forms hollowed through the face grain with natural edge openingsView attachment 60784 View attachment 60782

Very nice work! I’ve talked with Lyle and like his set up. If I have big enough blanks I would probably do face grain most of the time. It’s has been difficult to find YouTube videos explaining hollow form set up. Thought about taking a class with David Ellsworth since he is not far from me but he freehands and I like the laser guide

 

[hockenbery]

Very nice work! I’ve talked with Lyle and like his set up. If I have big enough blanks I would probably do face grain most of the time. It’s has been difficult to find YouTube videos explaining hollow form set up. Thought about taking a class with David Ellsworth since he is not far from me but he freehands and I like the laser guide

I started hollowing in a class with David about 30 years ago. He’s a great teacher. Great guy. If you can get in take a class they fill up.

I used David’s tools for about 6 months
Then I jumped forward with a stewart arm brace, straight, and bent tool( with the cutter in line with the shaft little torque)
Then the Jamieson system about 25 years ago I added a lazer.
About 10 years ago I added video - Trent Bosch visualizer.

The video boosted my confidence. I found this amazing since i was darned confident and had done hollowing demos at 6 regional symposiums and one AAW.
What it was - when you using the laser you have to set it off the part of the cutter contacting the wood. On a curve using a bent tool this is a least 4 times. Left of tip, tip, right of tip, and back to tip ( but here I can switch to a straight tool.)

I would always continue cutting a little after it was time to reset the lazer and reset when I stopped to clear chips.
I always kept the wall where it should be but cutting without the laser feedback increases anxiety.

I use a faceplate on my face grain hollow forms.
This is a tutorial on mounting a faceplate. It shows a little about rough shaping a from like this

Mounting a faceplate

The video below shows how I turn a form for mounting on a faceplate to include turning the faceplate mount. We had some discussion a while back on faceplates. There are lots of ways to use them successfully. My method works. Regardless of method it is essential the the outer rim of the...

www.aawforum.org

 

[Dennis Weiner]

Ditto. Al's Recomendation. I own a similar system but I use LJ components on forms up to 12" deep. Which covers most of my hollowing. I also own a Custom Clark system for larger work. Experience tells me, that if I started with a smaller capacity boring system, I would have sold it at a loss for a trade-up.

 

[Ed Weingarden]

If you're just starting to get into HFs, I suggest your first few be not too deep; perhaps 4' - 6" in depth. That way, whatever system you decide to use, you'll get a feel for the process. I've been using the Jamieson system for a number of years. The 3/4" boring bar will get you to about 10" comfortably. In my experience, deeper than 10" it's slow going with very lite cuts as the bar starts to get chattery. I also have a 1 1/8" bar that gets me to about 15" in depth. I do almost all of my HFs as end grain, and are twice turned; that's my personal preference. I would recommend skipping the laser light for wall thickness and start with a video setup. You can get the needed items (camera, monitor, and cable) for about $100 on Amazon. If you need more detailed info, feel free to send a PM.

 

[Dean Center]

I'll go Ed one better. If you're not going to take a class and are going to teach yourself by doing, start with an open form--like a box or a cup or similar. You can watch your tools at work, see what angles and approaches get you the results you want, learn to get rid of a bottom nib, and so on. Another brilliant idea is from John Lucas, I believe, and maybe a good next step--cut some holes in a blank and hollow with a smaller opening. You can watch the tool at work inside when the blank spins!

Taking a class is the best idea, though. If you can hollow the way David Ellsworth does it, you can certainly hollow with mechanical support, and the process is basically the same. David hollows both end and face grain, if I remember from demos I've watched. Most people hollow green wood, I believe, though burls maybe hollow OK dry.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Concerning hollowing systems . . . I purchased Trent Bosch's Stabilizer and am very happy with it. However, I would say that, most likely the hollowing system you purcahse and learn on will be the one that you feel serves your needs (at least any that are sold by professional woodturners). I tried hollow forms after turning for several years; turning small bowls to start with. I didn't own a hollowing system when I began hollow forms and got along just fine. A hollowing system merely allows you to exercise a little more control over your inside cuts and, for me, removed a significant amount of stress on my arms and shoulders. Holloiwing systems allow you to hollow easier with a stable base that absorbs a large part of the vibration. It really makes the hollowing process more enjoyable and allows you to focus more on the actual finished product. However, you don't absolutely need one to start.

I'm sure Lyle Jamieson's system would serve your needs. I've seen it, never used it, but feel it accomplishes the same basic things most of them do. As with turning, there is no one way to get to the end, some better techniques maybe and improved skills with more practice.

 

[David Wyke]

I'll go Ed one better. If you're not going to take a class and are going to teach yourself by doing, start with an open form--like a box or a cup or similar. You can watch your tools at work, see what angles and approaches get you the results you want, learn to get rid of a bottom nib, and so on. Another brilliant idea is from John Lucas, I believe, and maybe a good next step--cut some holes in a blank and hollow with a smaller opening. You can watch the tool at work inside when the blank spins!

Taking a class is the best idea, though. If you can hollow the way David Ellsworth does it, you can certainly hollow with mechanical support, and the process is basically the same. David hollows both end and face grain, if I remember from demos I've watched. Most people hollow green wood, I believe, though burls maybe hollow OK dry.

I have tried hollowing freehand and do plan to take a class when time permits. You and others have given some great advice! Thank you!

 

[Dave Landers]

Some of my thoughts, to add to what others have said:
If you're starting out with hollow forms, I suggest making several without a laser or camera. You'll have a better feel for what's going on inside. Then, when you add the laser/camera you'll know better what it's showing you.
You will make a few bigger on the inside than on the outside, but just consider it learning and practice.
As @Dean Center said, initially keep your openings large (or huge, relatively) so you can see what's going on inside.
If you are hollowing without a support system, don't stick you face at the end of the tool to look into the hole as you're cutting. A catch will bring the tool handle into your face/eye/nose. It's far enough away you're unlikely to get blood on the wood, but still undesirable.
A larger opening also reduces your initial investment, as you can do more with a straight tool and don't need a whole army of curved tools.
Shavings will build up inside and clog the tool. Can suddenly grab your tool. So stop and clear before this happens.
Cutting axial (aka end-grain or side-grain or spindle-orientation) forms generally produce shavings closer to dust, which clog the tool less. Radial (aka cross-grain or bowl-orientation) generally makes long curls that clog and grab much more quickly and violently than axial forms. And they can be a lot harder to clear out (often have to rake because blowing or vacuum doesn't do it). So save the radial attempts for after you get some experience.
You can either once- or twice-turn hollow forms. I don't find out-of-round to be a problem - it less noticeable than with a bowl. And it's easier. The wet chips inside are stickier than when dry, so will clog/grab more, and may take a bit of effort to remove.
Personally, I would only twice-turn if I needed the piece end up round - like for a lid (threaded or tight fit). I don't do that often (and don't often plan that far ahead!).

 

[David Wyke]

Some of my thoughts, to add to what others have said:
If you're starting out with hollow forms, I suggest making several without a laser or camera. You'll have a better feel for what's going on inside. Then, when you add the laser/camera you'll know better what it's showing you.
You will make a few bigger on the inside than on the outside, but just consider it learning and practice.
As @Dean Center said, initially keep your openings large (or huge, relatively) so you can see what's going on inside.
If you are hollowing without a support system, don't stick you face at the end of the tool to look into the hole as you're cutting. A catch will bring the tool handle into your face/eye/nose. It's far enough away you're unlikely to get blood on the wood, but still undesirable.
A larger opening also reduces your initial investment, as you can do more with a straight tool and don't need a whole army of curved tools.
Shavings will build up inside and clog the tool. Can suddenly grab your tool. So stop and clear before this happens.
Cutting axial (aka end-grain or side-grain or spindle-orientation) forms generally produce shavings closer to dust, which clog the tool less. Radial (aka cross-grain or bowl-orientation) generally makes long curls that clog and grab much more quickly and violently than axial forms. And they can be a lot harder to clear out (often have to rake because blowing or vacuum doesn't do it). So save the radial attempts for after you get some experience.
You can either once- or twice-turn hollow forms. I don't find out-of-round to be a problem - it less noticeable than with a bowl. And it's easier. The wet chips inside are stickier than when dry, so will clog/grab more, and may take a bit of effort to remove.
Personally, I would only twice-turn if I needed the piece end up round - like for a lid (threaded or tight fit). I don't do that often (and don't often plan that far ahead!).

Thank you!

 

[robo hippy]

I don't do many hollow forms, or closed forms. However, I do consider boxes a good start. Generally smaller, and easier to see inside.

robo hippy

 

[Bill Blasic]

I have been doing hollowing for almost as long as I have been turning. From the beginning I used mainly Kelton or John Jordan hollowers (all sizes). Now these are basically scrapers and I am acutely aware of the noise they make as they are scraping not cutting but they worked fine. I then got the opportunity to review Mike Hunter's boring bars and the 3 piece tapered cutters. With the 1" bar cutting at 18 or 19 inches deep not a whisper of noise, basically vibration free as the tools are cutting wood, quite the revelation. For the pictures for the review I just had an open piece of wood and showed it cutting at 18 or 19" deep. The 3/4" bar gave the same results but at a slightly less depth. For what I paid for the complete set of all the Kelton tools the price difference was not that different. The pucker factor is greatly reduced with the Hunter cutters

 

[David Wyke]

I have been doing hollowing for almost as long as I have been turning. From the beginning I used mainly Kelton or John Jordan hollowers (all sizes). Now these are basically scrapers and I am acutely aware of the noise they make as they are scraping not cutting but they worked fine. I then got the opportunity to review Mike Hunter's boring bars and the 3 piece tapered cutters. With the 1" bar cutting at 18 or 19 inches deep not a whisper of noise, basically vibration free as the tools are cutting wood, quite the revelation. For the pictures for the review I just had an open piece of wood and showed it cutting at 18 or 19" deep. The 3/4" bar gave the same results but at a slightly less depth. For what I paid for the complete set of all the Kelton tools the price difference was not that different. The pucker factor is greatly reduced with the Hunter cutters

I’ve been looking at the Hunter carbides and like the look. I purchased the Korpro carbide from him for my Oneway coring system and it works great.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I’ve had Lyle’s “I want it all” system with both carbide and hss cutters, for ~5 years, 1/2”, 3/4”, and 1-1/8” bars, and have done up to ~16” and 15” dia. While there are several very good systems available, I think Lyle’s system still offers the most capability for the $.

Your choice to get a system vs free hand is a good one. As depth off the rest increases, so does the stress. After I blew up about 3 nearly finished forms due to attention lapses (I was successful with many others), I got Lyle’s system. The decrease in stress made hf’s much more fun!

I used the laser for a year or so, but after figuring out how cheaply a vision system could be put together (replacing the laser with a camera, using Lyles support and mount), I put one together and haven’t used the laser since.

I still use hand held hollowing tools to open up a new form inside - its quicker to get the chips out, and I like to stay in practice (still do ornament size stuff hand held).

I prefer the hss cutters for initial hogging out, then switch to carbide for final wall t. The carbide can get grabby, and I for deeper forms, sharp hss cuts with less force to the bar.

I do all manner of grain direction, face, end, burls, etc, it just depends on the chunk of wood. Good advice above to do some open forms initially to get a feel for the system, and then do a few moderate size hf’s. Try the different cutters and swivel heads etc. It takes some time to figure out the best approach for a given shape, as well as limits to the upper form shape vs the opening size.

Most of my hf’s are wet wood 1 turn. If doing a lidded vessel or just need a “straight” piece, I will 2 turn. Wet wood cuts much easier vs dry.

Chip removal - I like to keep entrance holes small as possible, which challenges chip removal. I have a lot of diy rakes, but my favorite method is the shop vac with a Dustopper 5 gal bucket separator - can use a bag in the vac for fine dust, and the bucket catches all the other stuff (I do not like blowing dust around the shop). I use pvc pipe of barious dia, and bend the pipe to a usable form. I’ve turned wooden adapters to fit the vac hose and different pipe dia.

 

[David Wyke]

I have Lyle's system and it works pretty well. I've made some improvements to it that have really made it shine. I didn't like the laser setup. Pointers really aren't made for dust and vibration exposure (I tried a few different variations) and I forgot to turn it off a time or 2. It also made using my steady rest nearly impossible to work around. I decided to make my own laser. I had a phone charging cord that had a worn connector. I cut it off and soldered a laser diode in place of the phone connector. I put it in a small short tube. Now I plug in my laser, so no batteries to replace. It also greatly reduced the mass at the end of the overhead bar, so it stays much more steady. The clearance with a steady rest isn't as much as a problem anymore. because there's no vertical tube with batteries in the way.

Thanks!

 

[David Wyke]

I’ve had Lyle’s “I want it all” system with both carbide and hss cutters, for ~5 years, 1/2”, 3/4”, and 1-1/8” bars, and have done up to ~16” and 15” dia. While there are several very good systems available, I think Lyle’s system still offers the most capability for the $.

Your choice to get a system vs free hand is a good one. As depth off the rest increases, so does the stress. After I blew up about 3 nearly finished forms due to attention lapses (I was successful with many others), I got Lyle’s system. The decrease in stress made hf’s much more fun!

I used the laser for a year or so, but after figuring out how cheaply a vision system could be put together (replacing the laser with a camera, using Lyles support and mount), I put one together and haven’t used the laser since.

I still use hand held hollowing tools to open up a new form inside - its quicker to get the chips out, and I like to stay in practice (still do ornament size stuff hand held).

I prefer the hss cutters for initial hogging out, then switch to carbide for final wall t. The carbide can get grabby, and I for deeper forms, sharp hss cuts with less force to the bar.

I do all manner of grain direction, face, end, burls, etc, it just depends on the chunk of wood. Good advice above to do some open forms initially to get a feel for the system, and then do a few moderate size hf’s. Try the different cutters and swivel heads etc. It takes some time to figure out the best approach for a given shape, as well as limits to the upper form shape vs the opening size.

Most of my hf’s are wet wood 1 turn. If doing a lidded vessel or just need a “straight” piece, I will 2 turn. Wet wood cuts much easier vs dry.

Chip removal - I like to keep entrance holes small as possible, which challenges chip removal. I have a lot of diy rakes, but my favorite method is the shop vac with a Dustopper 5 gal bucket separator - can use a bag in the vac for fine dust, and the bucket catches all the other stuff (I do not like blowing dust around the shop). I use pvc pipe of barious dia, and bend the pipe to a usable form. I’ve turned wooden adapters to fit the vac hose and different pipe dia.

Thank you!

 

[mike tompkins]

I’m looking to start hollowing this summer and currently look at the Lyle Jamieson system.
Does anyone have suggestions or used this system?
Also, are most hollow forms end grain or side grain? Once turned or twice turned?
Thanks!

 

[mike tompkins]

Take a look Trent Bosch hollowing System lower price ! and Check out Tim Yoder just see .

 

[Randy Heinemann]

End grain hollow forms may be more common but you can do either. I believe that the reason most hollow forms are end grain is because there is more strength in the side walls with the grain running vertically on the piece.

I use Trent Bosch’s Stabilizer and it works great, especially in combination with his Visualizer.

 

[Norm Marentette]

I researched hollowing systems for awhile and finally decided on Trent Bosch's Stabilizer and glad I did. Easy to store and assembly quickly, ease of use and solid system. Tend to turn larger items and has been great IMO.

 

[Tim Dunbar]

i have been hollowing for about 7 years i tend to do med to large vessels but on occasion i do small ones as well, i have used many systems, starting out with a shop made captured system which left a lot to be desired, next i got a Rolly Monroe hollowing tool which is awsome and really cuts well (uses a cupped carbide cutter) also have a Lyle Jameson system and i recently acquired an Elbo hollowing tool from Tim Yoder, i am still using a shop made laser support and i am going to probably set up a camera to replace the laser. conclusion: i use all three, the Elbo is fast and easy for smaller forms, the Rolly monroe is great for removing lots of wood and i do use the Monroe bar in the Elbo and the Jameson systems and it works great. the best all around system for me is the Jameson, it is very smooth and easy to use and will do whatever hollowing you need, the carbide cutters work well but i get along fine with the HHS cutters is amazing how fast you can remove wood with them, i did get some 3/16" m42 blanks off of ebay that were 2 1/2" long so i was able to cut in half and sharpen, the m42 steel stays sharp longer than just HHS

 

[Larry Mercier]

I researched hollowing systems for awhile and finally decided on Trent Bosch's Stabilizer and glad I did. Easy to store and assembly quickly, ease of use and solid system. Tend to turn larger items and has been great IMO.

Ditto. I am very pleased with Trent's system. I started out hollowing smaller forms. Now my forms are larger but not yet as large as I hope to hollow in the future. The learning curve has been fun.

 

[Doug Freeman]

the carbide cutters work well but i get along fine with the HHS cutters is amazing how fast you can remove wood with them, i did get some 3/16" m42 blanks off of ebay that were 2 1/2" long so i was able to cut in half and sharpen, the m42 steel stays sharp longer than just HHS

I’ve had the same experiences, including m42 from ebay.

You mention the hss cutters remove wood quickly, and the Monroe cutter as well. Curious if the Monroe cutter is worth having? Seems the large curl chips would be a pita with a small opening.

 

[Tim Dunbar]

Doug, the Monroe tool is very good in certain situations, true the large chips would be a pain... in small openings, but, if your opening is a bit larger then its great or if your hollowing by hand, to me if i am hollowing by hand the Monroe is easier to control than a typical hollowing bar with a scraper type cutter, so i guess its all in the piece your turning, nice to have options!! lol

 

[John Roemer]

I’m looking to start hollowing this summer and currently look at the Lyle Jamieson system.
Does anyone have suggestions or used this system?
Also, are most hollow forms end grain or side grain? Once turned or twice turned?
Thanks!

Just purchased the Jamieson system last week with both carbide and hss cutters. So far just used the carbide. I have to learn a gentler touch. He has a DVD/downloadable video on turning a goblet with his system that demonstrates a lot of his features. I would recommend taking a look at that before buying, even though he includes it in some of his packages.

 

[John Roemer]

End grain hollow forms may be more common but you can do either. I believe that the reason most hollow forms are end grain is because there is more strength in the side walls with the grain running vertically on the piece.

I use Trent Bosch’s Stabilizer and it works great, especially in combination with his Visualizer.

Cross grain is more susceptible to shrinkage then end grain, otherwise both are good for hollowing.