Hello! I am getting into green turning and my Munro Wondercutt, while an AMAZING tool, gets clogged way too quickly. Add to that I will be doing a lot of reverse turning and I'm having trouble finding the right tools for the job. Does anyone have any recommendations? I love my Wondercutt due to the weight and the flexibility (the articulating head replaces multiple tools) but I'm wondering what else is out there. Thank you!
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Hollowing tool recommendation for green reverse-turning?
- Thread starter Maggie Shapiro
- Start date
Jim McLain
Artist
I would recommend hollowing in the right direction with that new Vicmarc VL240 swivel head lathe. Going in the right direction opens up a lot more options. J. Paul Fennell turns in reverse but he makes his own tools.
What do you mean by "reverse turning"?
I have done a fair number of hollow forms and my standard cutter for pieces with small openings is a 3/16" high speed steel scraper cutter held in a Jamieson swivel assembly inserted into a boring bar used in a captive system. I suspect that is the most widely used cutter type. Carbide cup cutters like the Hunter stay sharp much longer and can give a cleaner cut if oriented properly.
For work with larger openings, especially green wood end grain, I often use a ProForme cutter, which is a shielded hook tool. It is a bit fussy to adjust but when it is working right it eats wood like yellow dog dingo. There are also open hook tools like the Martel and ring tools like the Oneway Termite which some favor.
I almost always clean up with a hss teardrop scraper, whether held at a rake angle or with a negative rake ground on the top.
I have done a fair number of hollow forms and my standard cutter for pieces with small openings is a 3/16" high speed steel scraper cutter held in a Jamieson swivel assembly inserted into a boring bar used in a captive system. I suspect that is the most widely used cutter type. Carbide cup cutters like the Hunter stay sharp much longer and can give a cleaner cut if oriented properly.
For work with larger openings, especially green wood end grain, I often use a ProForme cutter, which is a shielded hook tool. It is a bit fussy to adjust but when it is working right it eats wood like yellow dog dingo. There are also open hook tools like the Martel and ring tools like the Oneway Termite which some favor.
I almost always clean up with a hss teardrop scraper, whether held at a rake angle or with a negative rake ground on the top.
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Thank you! By ‘reverse turning’ I mean that the piece is spinning the opposite direction direction. This is much more ergonomic for me as a petite person (so I don’t have to bend across the lathe) and also because I don’t have access to the far side of my lathe as it’s up against my garage wall. I appreciate the recommendations!
look at D-Way tools he makes one specifically for reverse turning
I have to say that seems a bit sketchy due to the tendency of the work to unscrew from the spindle. Chucks and faceplates with setscrews bearing against a spindle groove should prevent catastrophe but any looseness will cause unwanted vibration. Make sure you tighten your work solidly on the spindle and check it regularly.
If you do have a swiveling headstock that should work well with hand-held hollowing tools. The Bosch Stabilizer is a very good captive system that mounts in the banjo and should allow for easier hollowing with the headstock rotated and the spindle running forward.
The Jamieson swivel setup linked above will work in either direction as will the Termite.
Thank you!
Thank you I'll check them both out! (As for your worry about pieces unscrewing - not to worry, my lathe has a collar that goes around the base of the chuck and the spindle to hold everything on there. I've used it many times already and had a great experience
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Just urging caution. Moderate loads well snugged up to the spindle shoulder will probably never cause a problem but heavier pieces and hard knocks when roughing or hollowing through knots and voids can unscrew a chuck slightly until the grub screws catch. There may be no obvious unthreading but a slight chatter may ensue and the grub screws may loosen further or scar the spindle groove. That can happen when a large load is stopped against vfd braking in standard rotation as well. Be safe.Thank you I'll check them both out! (As for your worry about pieces unscrewing - not to worry, my lathe has a collar that goes around the base of the chuck and the spindle to hold everything on there. I've used it many times already and had a great experience
edit: Maybe your "collar that goes around the base of the chuck and the spindle to hold everything on there" is something different than the commonly seen grubscrews through the chuck base engaging a groove in the spindle. If so could you post a picture here?
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For turning the inside of closed rim bowls in the reverse lathe direction I use the reverse-rotation Hunter tool. I haven't tried it on a full-out hollow form with a small opening but seems like it would work, at least for some.
huntertoolsystems.com
JKJ
Badger #5 Full Swan Neck Tool Reverse Rotation - Hunter Tool Systems
Think of the Hunter as a finishing tool. The Hunter Tool is capable of hollowing an object completely, but most turners rough hollow with conventional tooling. Hunter Tools are mainly used for the final form, shaping, and finish cuts. Hunter Tools are best used at higher RPM (1800-2200 RPM) to...
huntertoolsystems.com
JKJ
I guess I'm not seeing the reasoning for wanting to turn in reverse. With a simple laser or video setup, there's really no need to try and see inside and my Jamieson hollower system is effortless, so there's no need at all to have the tool/handle closer.
The key to making a Monro tool work in green wood is to slow the lathe speed WAY down. It will still be way faster in cutting than a little scraping cutter.
Richard the problem with your statement is that the hole through which I can hollow with my 5/16 set of Keltons is that the Munro needs a hole three times at least bigger. It's a senseless point as the size of the piece you are going to hollow with the 5/16 Keltons is very small compared to the size of the piece you would want to use the Munro on. But don't believe that you can't hollow fast with 5/16 Keltons because it depends how you set the tool up as it can be aggressive or non-aggressive. But they are scrapers and they make dust not chips, and are very loud. That is why I have taken to Hunter carbides for the same pieces.
Trent is happy to make his tools for running in reverse. This is what I do and what I use.
I would think most any round section boring bars that hold square hss cutters could be used in reverse with the inserts rotated 180*.
Like Darryl I don't see much advantage to turning in reverse but that's just me.
Like Darryl I don't see much advantage to turning in reverse but that's just me.
Hunter also makes a right hand Viceroy. The cutter on the straight Jackofsky tool can be positioned to the right or left, too.
I'll just mention that if you have a rotating head stock you may be able to swing it 20 or 30 degrees and still reach it with the regular banjo. An outrigger is still nice to have.
I'll just mention that if you have a rotating head stock you may be able to swing it 20 or 30 degrees and still reach it with the regular banjo. An outrigger is still nice to have.
I was going to say the same regarding a pivoting headstock. Maggie, a rotating headstock obviates the need to turn in reverse. You may need a longer tool rest, though. The tool rest that came with my Rikon is 12" or so and that's enough when the headstock is rotated about 40 degrees.
@Maggie Shapiro regarding safety of hollowing in reverse - I’ve done hundreds of pieces that way. Only times I’ve had an issue were when I forgot to tighten the set screw. With the set screw tight, I’ve never had an issue and I get pretty aggressive out to ~1/2” wall.
I turn on a pivot HS lathe (Galaxi). I prefer to reverse hollow vs pivoting the piece out. I reverse hollow by hand held to open the work up, then finish it with a Jamieson setup in normal direction.
My hand held hollowing tools are all shop made. I use 3/16” m42 square tool bits, and flat top 8.9 mm carbide, bars ranging from 3/8” to 3/4”.
I turn on a pivot HS lathe (Galaxi). I prefer to reverse hollow vs pivoting the piece out. I reverse hollow by hand held to open the work up, then finish it with a Jamieson setup in normal direction.
My hand held hollowing tools are all shop made. I use 3/16” m42 square tool bits, and flat top 8.9 mm carbide, bars ranging from 3/8” to 3/4”.
I have never made a hollow form in reverse. I moved my lathe out from the wall so I could turn from the back. I hollow left handed.
I use the Hunter Hercules with both directions of lathe rotation. Depending on what I'm doing and what I feel likeI want to see.
I didn’t know we were restricted to the size of the opening for this discussion. The OP sure didn’t mention it, nor did anyone else. I’m not short on hollowing experience
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You might consider the Jamieson system. I use that with Bosch bars.
There is no bending over with this setup with the lathe running forward. No pressure on the body at all.
You could use this system running the lathe backwards. You would have to turn the cutter in the hook tool by heating it to break the glue bond turning it 180 a gluing it in with thick CA. And you woul want to mount the back rest backwards.
Also have the Simon Hope which I use with the Bosch bars also. This will work fine running the lathe backwards. You would need to swap the cutter in the hook tool to cut backwards.
The sinner system would run in reverse too.
The only issues with of the captive systems is getting hook tools to cut upside down be rotating the cutter and verifying that any articulation can articulate on the other side like the hope.
However using something like the Jamieson you may not see any advantage to running in reverse unless you don’t have enough room to accommodate the back rest on the back side
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Maggie, how about watching some YouTube videos of Traditional Japanese wood turning. They often turn in reverse and many if not most seem to make their own tools. I’m not suggesting you make your own but perhaps a local blacksmith could make some tools for you? They don’t look particularly difficult to make. Exactly how well they would work on Green Wood I don’t know, but they certainly wouldn’t clog. I’ll post some links.
View: https://youtu.be/pqK-txM6iwU
View: https://youtu.be/DqYxnDWmqys
View: https://youtu.be/usgwah09_jQ
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Some Traditional Japanese Woodturning Tools.
if it clogs you may have to widely open, this will rapidly clog it. Green wood, try a Pro-Forme from Woodcut, wont clog and on green wood you can open it up to 1.5mm plus and really hog out the excess.
Pro-Forme Hollowing Tools for Professional Woodturning | Woodcut Tools
Explore our Pro-Forme hollowing tools, meticulously designed for professional woodturning. Discover Woodcut Tools' high-quality Pro-Forme tools and elevate your craftsmanship in hollowing projects.
www.woodcut-tools.com
I have both and they both work well but like all tools there are limitations that need to be considered.
I would really like to test this, but I wont be buying a Munro tool. The 3/16” square scraper cutters go through green wood pretty fast, and generate curls not dust. They are much faster than the cupped carbide cutters in my use. The cupped barbide are good for smoothing and getting to final wall thickness.
Here is a split ring collar (wrapped with blue tape) on my Vicmarc VL200, same as on my former VL300. Maybe even their former VL100 mini lathe that I sold a dozen years ago. Anyway, I've always left it fitted on the handwheel to keep it from unscrewing (anchoring the collar rib to the grooves on the spindle and handwheel). The second pic shows how it would work inboard with this Vicmarc faceplate. (My Vic VM120 chuck does not work with the collar- no groove.) There are grooves (twin pencil pointers) on the spindle shoulder and on the faceplate shoulder. The 2-piece split collar has corresponding ribs to engage the grooves, and two recessed allen screws for mating the split collar sections (one shown under that oval indent in the blue tape covering those holes- those holes will ding up a fingertip when using the handwheel as a hand brake, hence the tape. I found out the hard way...). At the second photo, when that split collar would capture both the faceplate and the spindle, at least on these lathes, it is rock solid secure, much more so than a simple grub screw secured down into the groove, which can be very secure itself unless put under extreme and shocking stress, possibly shearing the grub screw and damaging the spindle and maybe the operator. In fairness, I've never heard of that happening to a simple grub screw, but the split collar will offer far greater holding power turning in reverse.
@Odie does your new Vicmarc include this split collar arrangement?
I’ve found locking the chuck on with a Socket Set Screw (Grub Screw) quite effective, although I’d rather use three.
I’ve drilled and tapped face plates for provision of three screws.
I hasten to add though that I only normally turn relatively small stuff. I would not trust a single screw for turning large/heavy workpieces, but perhaps that’s just me being over cautious.
I’ve drilled and tapped face plates for provision of three screws.
I hasten to add though that I only normally turn relatively small stuff. I would not trust a single screw for turning large/heavy workpieces, but perhaps that’s just me being over cautious.
Thanks for that explanation, it looks like a foolproof system for matched Vicmarc chucks and faceplates. I'm surprised Vicmarc chucks don't have a matching groove.
It’s not just Vicmarc. Axminster introduced this system on some of their lathes last year I think? Obviously some of their chucks have the same fitting.
I also bought a Supernova 2 Chuck some time ago and that has this fitting as well.
I’m not sure where it first appeared but Axminster call it a EURO ASR locking ring groove.
Steinert in Germany sell their own version. I believe some of their lathes were offered with this fitting some time before Axminster.
They don’t tend to use direct threads but instead have a Bayonet fitting on the spindle.
Odie
Panning for Montana gold, with Betsy, the mule!
I’ve just bought a new Axminster Chuck, and it has both the Euro ASR fitting and three set scews.
Thank you so much!For turning the inside of closed rim bowls in the reverse lathe direction I use the reverse-rotation Hunter tool. I haven't tried it on a full-out hollow form with a small opening but seems like it would work, at least for some.
Badger #5 Full Swan Neck Tool Reverse Rotation - Hunter Tool Systems
Think of the Hunter as a finishing tool. The Hunter Tool is capable of hollowing an object completely, but most turners rough hollow with conventional tooling. Hunter Tools are mainly used for the final form, shaping, and finish cuts. Hunter Tools are best used at higher RPM (1800-2200 RPM) to...
JKJ
It's mostly an ergonomic and practical thing - I am petite and if I was to turn the 'right' way I would be leaning over the bed, which is precarious and potentially dangerous. Also I can't walk around to the back side of my lathe so reverse turning makes the most sense.
Thank you I will try that!
Thank you I didn't know this!
If I had the space I would do the same thing!
Thank you!
Thank you!