I have a large, maybe 16"-18" dia. holly tree that I need to cut down. It has a straight trunk of 20'. my question is after I cut it down how do I keep it white as possible ? I have heard all kind of things that I can do, but would like some imput on what to do to get the most usable wood out of the log.
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Holly- How to keep it white after cutting?
- Thread starter kenth
- Start date
I'm surprised nobody has responded to this enquiry......and, I don't have an answer either.
Ken......are you mainly concerned about mildew, or bacterial discoloration?
Hopefully, someone who has the required experience will come along......I'm interested in hearing the answer.
ooc
Ken......are you mainly concerned about mildew, or bacterial discoloration?
Hopefully, someone who has the required experience will come along......I'm interested in hearing the answer.
ooc
Russ Fairfield
RIP
The following is my experience with finishing Holly. Others may have different experiences because they live in a different climate or have access to Holly that grew in different soil and site conditions.
My experience is that you can't keep Holly white. Left to itself and exposure to light, it will turn towards either a durty white or slightly amber coloring over time. Therefore, you will have to answer the question - do you want the least color change now, or do you want it to stay as white as possible for as long as possible? Your answer to this question will determine the finish you use.
All oil based finishes, whether poly or other resins, will impart a yellow coloring to the wood when they are applied, and the finishes themselves will turn amber over time. The only differences between any of them is how much and how long it takes. Use them if you like the amber coloring of old ivory.
The least initial color change will be from wetting the wood with water. What you see is the least possible color change with a finish.
The least color change will be with a coating of a good carnauba wax, and that will be about the same as when wetted with water. But, wax is the least durable finish and it will have to be renewed at least yearly.
Nitrocellulose lacquer will impart the same initial coloring as the water or the wax, but the finish itself will turn amber as it ages, giving the wood a coloring that is similar to very old ivory in 2 to 5 years of normal house exposure.
The best you can do is to use a finish that won't impart a yellow color immediately or over time. That rules out all of the conventional finishes except the waterbornes. They will impart no more color to the wood than wetting it with water, and they will have the least color change over time.
From my experience with waterbornes, I will recommend two of them. The new Deft Waterborne Acrylic will impart no more color to the wood than wetting it with water, and it is a clearer finish than any of the other brands of waterborne acrylics that I have used.
The "High Performance" by General Finishes is a waterborne polyurethane that will impart slightly more color to the wood that the Deft Acrylic, but not nearly as much as any of the conventional solvent finishes. Both of these are too new to know how they will look in 5 to 10 years from now.
My experience is that you can't keep Holly white. Left to itself and exposure to light, it will turn towards either a durty white or slightly amber coloring over time. Therefore, you will have to answer the question - do you want the least color change now, or do you want it to stay as white as possible for as long as possible? Your answer to this question will determine the finish you use.
All oil based finishes, whether poly or other resins, will impart a yellow coloring to the wood when they are applied, and the finishes themselves will turn amber over time. The only differences between any of them is how much and how long it takes. Use them if you like the amber coloring of old ivory.
The least initial color change will be from wetting the wood with water. What you see is the least possible color change with a finish.
The least color change will be with a coating of a good carnauba wax, and that will be about the same as when wetted with water. But, wax is the least durable finish and it will have to be renewed at least yearly.
Nitrocellulose lacquer will impart the same initial coloring as the water or the wax, but the finish itself will turn amber as it ages, giving the wood a coloring that is similar to very old ivory in 2 to 5 years of normal house exposure.
The best you can do is to use a finish that won't impart a yellow color immediately or over time. That rules out all of the conventional finishes except the waterbornes. They will impart no more color to the wood than wetting it with water, and they will have the least color change over time.
From my experience with waterbornes, I will recommend two of them. The new Deft Waterborne Acrylic will impart no more color to the wood than wetting it with water, and it is a clearer finish than any of the other brands of waterborne acrylics that I have used.
The "High Performance" by General Finishes is a waterborne polyurethane that will impart slightly more color to the wood that the Deft Acrylic, but not nearly as much as any of the conventional solvent finishes. Both of these are too new to know how they will look in 5 to 10 years from now.
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I've never turned holly, because I've never had any to turn, but many years ago (fifteen, maybe) I made a custom display cabinet that had some small holly accents, and also some wild looking maple with purplish flame patterns that was also very light toned.
I wanted to preserve the lightness of both, so said a prayer to the "non-yellowing" gods and went with several applications of blond shellac. Very diluted - I don't remember the formula exactly, but I was working with Jim Krenov's idea of what he called "polish", which is really just a very dilute cut of shellac and alcohol. I rubbed each application out with bronze wool if I remember right.
Finished with a touch of renaissance wax and a soft cloth.
The piece has been maintained over the years very periodically with ren. wax.
I saw this cabinet during the last Christmas holidays when we went over to the lady's house for a dinner. It has held up well and is still very light toned, and has maintained good contrast and depth, though it has mellowed slightly as you would expect anyway. It has not ever been exposed to direct sunlight either.
Not the most durable of finishes though, it would only work well for a display piece, or on something to hold completely dry goods.
I wanted to preserve the lightness of both, so said a prayer to the "non-yellowing" gods and went with several applications of blond shellac. Very diluted - I don't remember the formula exactly, but I was working with Jim Krenov's idea of what he called "polish", which is really just a very dilute cut of shellac and alcohol. I rubbed each application out with bronze wool if I remember right.
Finished with a touch of renaissance wax and a soft cloth.
The piece has been maintained over the years very periodically with ren. wax.
I saw this cabinet during the last Christmas holidays when we went over to the lady's house for a dinner. It has held up well and is still very light toned, and has maintained good contrast and depth, though it has mellowed slightly as you would expect anyway. It has not ever been exposed to direct sunlight either.
Not the most durable of finishes though, it would only work well for a display piece, or on something to hold completely dry goods.
john lucas
AAW Forum Expert
When I need white wood I buy kiln dried holly. I have not had any luck keeping green holly white. Even when fresh turned it picks up a gray or green tint. I am drying some holly that I cut up into 3x3 blanks. It's too soon to tell but hopefully air drying on a shelf will keep it white. If not I'll have to settle for the gray green look.
Ken, I've never harvested any holly, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that the time of year makes a big differnce and if I'm not mistaken, holly cut in the early winter months has the best chance of staying white. For what it's worth.
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I had some very large holly in warm weather. I did the denatured alcohol soak with excellent results.
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You got three excellent answers in a row, covering the three main factors.
A few years ago, a friend took down a multi-trunked holly tree on his property and gave me the trunks. They were too small for any sizeable blanks, but I got some spindles out of it, and had plenty left to experiment with. My feeling was I could use the successful experiments for inlay, trim, marquetry, etc., and learn from the failed experiments. I've also read everything I could put my hands on regarding holly.
So it all depends on how white you want the holly to be vs. how much time and/or $$ you are willing to put into it.
As the three last posters said:
1. If you can wait until the right time, cut the tree when the sap is down. This helps keep blue and green fungal stains from forming.
It may sound obsessive, but if you really want to have the best shot at getting pure white holly you almost have to be. Soak your chain and bar in alcohol before you make the cuts. The goal is to limit the amount of fungal spores, which are everywhere, that touch the wood. Seal the ends of the log immediately.
2. If you can find access to a kiln anywhere near you, have the wood kiln dried. Cut the blanks yourself, or have the trunk milled into lumber. A mill near me will mill trees which meet certain basic requirements for $150/hour--well worth it because they could mill a tree the size of yours in about 10 minutes. Then rent, barter, or beg kiln time.
In my experience, even following all other precautions, pure white holly is impossible without kiln drying. Drying schedules are impossible to follow without a modern, computerized kiln. I've tried modified versions of Holly's schedule I could achieve with a convection oven, dehumidifier, humidifier etc. The best I could get is a very nice, acceptable white, with no stain or streaking. But put it next to a kiln-dried piece and the difference is obvious.
3. If you want to try air drying, or if you turn a piece green, soak the piece in alcohol for at least a day before drying. Don't cover it with wood shavings. Use new brown bags. Do everything you can to keep dust and dirt away from the piece. Treat it like a computer chip factory clean room.
But as was noted by the previous poster, even following every precaution, and even after avoiding any blue or green stain, it is almost a certainty that air dried holly will develop a grayish cast to it. Again, this might be acceptable.
After all, people who only use the "snow-white" holly are often surprised to see what interesting grain and figure (especially ray flecks) "lesser" holly can have.
Anyway, there's my two-cent, rambling expansion of what the earlier posters said much more succinctly
Hopefully, it can help you decide what outcome you're willing/able to pursue.
Good luck with the project. And I, for one, would love to hear about your progress and results.
A few years ago, a friend took down a multi-trunked holly tree on his property and gave me the trunks. They were too small for any sizeable blanks, but I got some spindles out of it, and had plenty left to experiment with. My feeling was I could use the successful experiments for inlay, trim, marquetry, etc., and learn from the failed experiments. I've also read everything I could put my hands on regarding holly.
So it all depends on how white you want the holly to be vs. how much time and/or $$ you are willing to put into it.
As the three last posters said:
1. If you can wait until the right time, cut the tree when the sap is down. This helps keep blue and green fungal stains from forming.
It may sound obsessive, but if you really want to have the best shot at getting pure white holly you almost have to be. Soak your chain and bar in alcohol before you make the cuts. The goal is to limit the amount of fungal spores, which are everywhere, that touch the wood. Seal the ends of the log immediately.
2. If you can find access to a kiln anywhere near you, have the wood kiln dried. Cut the blanks yourself, or have the trunk milled into lumber. A mill near me will mill trees which meet certain basic requirements for $150/hour--well worth it because they could mill a tree the size of yours in about 10 minutes. Then rent, barter, or beg kiln time.
In my experience, even following all other precautions, pure white holly is impossible without kiln drying. Drying schedules are impossible to follow without a modern, computerized kiln. I've tried modified versions of Holly's schedule I could achieve with a convection oven, dehumidifier, humidifier etc. The best I could get is a very nice, acceptable white, with no stain or streaking. But put it next to a kiln-dried piece and the difference is obvious.
3. If you want to try air drying, or if you turn a piece green, soak the piece in alcohol for at least a day before drying. Don't cover it with wood shavings. Use new brown bags. Do everything you can to keep dust and dirt away from the piece. Treat it like a computer chip factory clean room.
But as was noted by the previous poster, even following every precaution, and even after avoiding any blue or green stain, it is almost a certainty that air dried holly will develop a grayish cast to it. Again, this might be acceptable.
After all, people who only use the "snow-white" holly are often surprised to see what interesting grain and figure (especially ray flecks) "lesser" holly can have.
Anyway, there's my two-cent, rambling expansion of what the earlier posters said much more succinctly
Hopefully, it can help you decide what outcome you're willing/able to pursue.Good luck with the project. And I, for one, would love to hear about your progress and results.
Good timing for this post as I have some fresh holly as well.
I have some soaking in DNA but was wondering about soaking some in a bleach solution. My reasoning for this is not to speed the drying process... but stop the chemical reaction that does the color change. Is that a goofy idea? I suppose I'll do a bit of experimenting and see what happens.
I may also try the kiln (a box with a light bulb).
Any other ideas out there?
I have some soaking in DNA but was wondering about soaking some in a bleach solution. My reasoning for this is not to speed the drying process... but stop the chemical reaction that does the color change. Is that a goofy idea? I suppose I'll do a bit of experimenting and see what happens.
I may also try the kiln (a box with a light bulb).
Any other ideas out there?
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The amateur lab rat in me finds the whole issue very interesting...
Do you mean a 2-part wood bleach, or just a Clorox bleach solution?
Clorox: not sure how well it absorbs into the wood. DNA gets sucked through the grain just like water, so it permeates the wood completely. If bleach does not get drawn in like DNA, whatever effects it has would be limited to the surface only. (Depressing fact: there are several species of bacteria that can live in bleach. In fact there are bacteria that can live in just about ANY environment. At work, they put an additive in our Diesel fuel (!) to kill bacteria.)
2-part bleach: I have experimented with TPB on several species of wood, especially holly and magnolia (a BEAUTIFUL wood that is also maddeningly hard to cure while maintaining the fresh cut purity of color). One issue is, you can't really "soak" wood in it for longer than the recommended time, because it will destroy the wood. Using it on mineral or fungal stained wood yields mixed results, even on the same piece of wood. IMHO, it imparts a very artificial look to already light-colored woods. Sometimes the effect is interesting, sometimes not
Homemade Kiln: Hey, I'd never encourage anyone to skip an experiment, but in my experience, home kiln drying holly can get decent results, but not "premium" results. I have a profound respect for the people who formulated the Kiln Drying Schedules for each species of wood. Look at the one for Holly and you'll see how much experimentation must have gone into such a complex schedule.
Hope this is related enough that it isn't a thread hijack:
I've done a lot of searching for any books/papers/articles that deal with the science behind color change in light colored woods like holly and magnolia. There seem to be so many different kinds of streaking/staining/discoloration that can occur, it's overwhelming or fascinating, depending on your personality
Some stains are fungal. Some are mineral. Some seem to be caused by contact with air. Some seem to be caused by looking at the wood cross-eyed. Some are permanent. Some come and go depending on what your mother-in-law had for lunch...
I've found a few reliable constants about a few kinds of discoloration, but if anyone has any knowledge to impart, or knows of any reliable information, I'd love to hear about it. I could start a new thread if necessary.
Otherwise I'd love to hear the results of the posters here, and it's back to the lab for me...
GOOD LUCK !
Holly
S'cuze me, but I do not know why the big fuss about the bleached out white Holly. I have a lot of it that is out of stumps and trunks that have very gorgeous marbled and spalted grain. Oh well, I guess to each their own...just can not figure going to that much trouble. Dump it in a bucket of bleach???
S'cuze me, but I do not know why the big fuss about the bleached out white Holly. I have a lot of it that is out of stumps and trunks that have very gorgeous marbled and spalted grain. Oh well, I guess to each their own...just can not figure going to that much trouble. Dump it in a bucket of bleach???
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sometimes you need pure white for a project, sometimes the colorations are fine...
a lot of good stuff has come from people making a "big fuss" out of solving problems...
a lot of good stuff has come from people making a "big fuss" out of solving problems...
No big fuss... well maybe a little one
I want some nice and white for accents and I think a pure white bowl would be unique. Others will be left alone to be what ever they choose to be.
When I got the wood I chose some pieces for their straight grain and others for their chaotic grain patterns.
Variety.
Thanks to all for the info, keep it coming.
I want some nice and white for accents and I think a pure white bowl would be unique. Others will be left alone to be what ever they choose to be.
When I got the wood I chose some pieces for their straight grain and others for their chaotic grain patterns.
Variety.
Thanks to all for the info, keep it coming.
Holly
Sounds good on all the info...I was just wondering if, instead of all the exotic treatments, it might be easy to select a nice piece and bleach to suit? Seems like the end product would be the same without all the hassle....
Sounds good on all the info...I was just wondering if, instead of all the exotic treatments, it might be easy to select a nice piece and bleach to suit? Seems like the end product would be the same without all the hassle....
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Sounds good on all the info...I was just wondering if, instead of all the exotic treatments, it might be easy to select a nice piece and bleach to suit? Seems like the end product would be the same without all the hassle....
That would be nice.
But like i said in a earlier post, (IMHO) even 2-part bleaches don't work on some stains. Also, bleached wood has a very artificial, cloudy look to it. Might be fine for some uses. I personally like stained or even spalted more than bleached...
If you think about it, the treatment we're talking about isn't exotic or difficult. Kiln dried wood is everywhere. It's a very common process. It's just not common with holly (not a commercial timber, small tree, etc.), so when it happens... $$$.
The "fun" is trying to find a repeatable method for curing holly at home, without the use of a commercial kiln. Whoever does that is going to make at least a few woodworkers very happy.
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Some American Holly has a slightly gray heartwood. I don't believe it is considered a grading defect. I have never found bleaching to be effective on blue stain.
Holly
Allen...thanks for the info. I have a good supply of Holly trees....so I will start playing with a shop-made kiln. That should be educational and rewarding to all....I will post my failures and sucesses as they happen. Might even be fun.
Allen...thanks for the info. I have a good supply of Holly trees....so I will start playing with a shop-made kiln. That should be educational and rewarding to all....I will post my failures and sucesses as they happen. Might even be fun.
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Cool! What a great resource to have: lots of Holly trees. They're pretty sparse out here, and I think I read somewhere that Holly trees don't exist as naturally occurring stands in "the wild," only as human-planted ornamentals.
It'd be great to hear about your experimentation and see pictures of the results!
If you want one, and can't find a copy of the Kiln Schedule for Holly, I'd be happy to email it to you. It's a pretty interesting reference.
GOOD LUCK!
PS--How did you come to have so many Holly trees? Is there an interesting story there? Christmas Wreath Farm?
It'd be great to hear about your experimentation and see pictures of the results!
If you want one, and can't find a copy of the Kiln Schedule for Holly, I'd be happy to email it to you. It's a pretty interesting reference.
GOOD LUCK!
PS--How did you come to have so many Holly trees? Is there an interesting story there? Christmas Wreath Farm?
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....
PS--How did you come to have so many Holly trees? Is there an interesting story there? Christmas Wreath Farm?
I don't know about him, but I have a Holly farm just down the road from me. Holly is not native, but it likes our climate and grows well here
(unfortunately I was not into turning when the farm cut down half their trees as they were too old and large to handle pruning any more. Their new trees are, well, much too small)
Ralph
Holly trees
Allen....if you would be so kind as to send info...woodward@spiritone.com and flag as "Holly kiln", that way it will not get dumped as spam. Yup...I have 10 acres of them...ancient wreath stuff, now way past prime for that, and many at 12"-18" and more on stump. GAWD AWFUL PURTY wood!! Especially the stumps. That looks like fine marble. I have to boil the rough turned stuff to keep down cracks and warping, but it is well worth it. Gotta build me a kiln.
Allen....if you would be so kind as to send info...woodward@spiritone.com and flag as "Holly kiln", that way it will not get dumped as spam. Yup...I have 10 acres of them...ancient wreath stuff, now way past prime for that, and many at 12"-18" and more on stump. GAWD AWFUL PURTY wood!! Especially the stumps. That looks like fine marble. I have to boil the rough turned stuff to keep down cracks and warping, but it is well worth it. Gotta build me a kiln.
Holly trees
Pee Ess to my prior post....I have a number of stumps that are spalted....now THAT puts the "P" in purty!!!
Pee Ess to my prior post....I have a number of stumps that are spalted....now THAT puts the "P" in purty!!!
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Sent. Enjoy!
(Yeah, spalted Holly, esp. black-line spalt, can be as beautiful as spalted hackberry, without turning punky so easily! I'm all kinds of jealous...)
(Yeah, spalted Holly, esp. black-line spalt, can be as beautiful as spalted hackberry, without turning punky so easily! I'm all kinds of jealous...
)
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Holly
Yup, Allen.... these guys can try the "plane"??? lemon juice, and will be left with a pucker! I can shoot you some samples via snail mail, if ya want. Go to my e-mail site woodward@spiritone.com and send me your address. See my new web site for samples of my work.:cool2::cool2: www.dreamwooddesign.biz
Yup, Allen.... these guys can try the "plane"??? lemon juice, and will be left with a pucker! I can shoot you some samples via snail mail, if ya want. Go to my e-mail site woodward@spiritone.com and send me your address. See my new web site for samples of my work.:cool2::cool2: www.dreamwooddesign.biz
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Lemon juice... hmmmm. Maybe since it's acidic it might work against fungal stains??? Hadn't heard that one before...
Don I really like the urn you have pictured on your website. The first thing that came to mind when I saw it was an archaelogical dig, with different
layers of artifacts representing different periods of time. Great effect.
Is the bowl made from some of your spalted holly?
Don I really like the urn you have pictured on your website. The first thing that came to mind when I saw it was an archaelogical dig, with different
layers of artifacts representing different periods of time. Great effect.
Is the bowl made from some of your spalted holly?
Urn
Allen...Thanks for the good words...the woods used were spalted Red Alder, Baltic Birch plywood and Bamboo chopsticks and brass brads for the cross. Inlaid a brass/enamel art piece in the top, and entry was thru the base. The urn was 12" tall and 8" diameter. Finish was 6 coats of min-wax wipe-on poly. This was my most difficult piece, as it was for a close family member.
The lidded bowl is Spalted Red Alder, the lid is black locust burl, the finial is African Blackwood, and the neck ring and the base are Thuya burl. The finish is 3 coats Min-Wax wipe-on poly.
Allen...Thanks for the good words...the woods used were spalted Red Alder, Baltic Birch plywood and Bamboo chopsticks and brass brads for the cross. Inlaid a brass/enamel art piece in the top, and entry was thru the base. The urn was 12" tall and 8" diameter. Finish was 6 coats of min-wax wipe-on poly. This was my most difficult piece, as it was for a close family member.
The lidded bowl is Spalted Red Alder, the lid is black locust burl, the finial is African Blackwood, and the neck ring and the base are Thuya burl. The finish is 3 coats Min-Wax wipe-on poly.
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rather than start a new thread, I'm bumping this one.
Mr. Don and Allen MacKnight don't seem to post any more on this forum.
I'm hoping someone might have the kiln drying schedule that Allen mentioned, or that someone may have some direction on drying holly at home with decent results.
thanks!
Mr. Don and Allen MacKnight don't seem to post any more on this forum.
I'm hoping someone might have the kiln drying schedule that Allen mentioned, or that someone may have some direction on drying holly at home with decent results.
thanks!
I cut one down this spring and put it in the greenhouse (ie hot and humid). It appears to have worked, but......
always got to be a "but"
but what?
but what?