How important is posture for turning?

[robo hippy]

After Bill's comments about health and turning, I was pondering that while swimming laps in the pool. You do have a lot of time to ponder things.... Just how important is it to stand up straight? Being a swimmer, everything is about reducing drag. This mostly comes as body position, which is posture, plain and simple. To have good "posture" in the water, we need good core engagement, which as one Speedo coach said, "Suck in your gut like you are trying to put your belly button on your spine!" When we were young, we didn't have to think about sucking in our guts, it just happened naturally. As we get older, we tend to "relax" a lot more. All of that "relaxing" means that our body has to "compensate", which to means lower back problems, sciatica, and other ailments can be a result of bad posture while standing at the lathe and turning. I keep wondering if and/or how much this bad posture contributes to those aches and pains we get while turning.... Comments?

robo hippy

 

[John Torchick]

For me, it's the pressure on my knees, even the new one from last year. I have learned to turn while sitting on a swivel stool. Bent over a power tool for an extended time could cause back problems over time, IMO.

 

[hughie]

Much depends on the height of the lathe, from my personal view the elbow height indicator is too low. If we have a posture that aligns the ears, shoulders and hips on a reasonably wide foot stance we should be able to turn as long as we want, providing we turn with our body. Also, if there are no prevailing health issues, if so, the turner may have to look at a specialised lathe set up.
So my lathe is higher by the length of upper arm i.e. elbow to arm pit, once I had done this life on the lathe was and is far more comfortable. OK, I turn mainly closed bowls and hollow vessels
I am fortunate I can stand on a concrete floor all day with minimalist footwear, I often turn in the summer in flip-flops and occasionally turn bare-footed, but then the climate here allows a wide leeway to do such things. OK there maybe safety issues with this, but I have been at the lathe for over 20 years almost daily and have developed a good ear to what is happening, plus the habit of not being in a direct line to what I am turning. Hollowing its largely done from the tailstock end.
But then or for me, most of my working life was spent on my feet moving around, rarely sitting for long. Those who have had a more sedentary working life may need to look at posture carefully.

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

Much depends on the height of the lathe, from my personal view the elbow height indicator is too low.

I agree 100%. I initially set up my first lathe with the spindle at elbow height. As I got into freehand hollowing I felt it was too low, so I raised it an inch. That was much better for hollowing, but what really surprised me was the instantly noticeable relief in my back when working between centers.

 

[John K Jordan]

I keep wondering if and/or how much this bad posture contributes to those aches and pains we get while turning.... Comments?

I can't remember any aches (back, lets, neck, shoulders, etc) at the lathe. I do move a lot when turning. However I have problems with hand cramps, especially with small, detailed things, not only at the lathe or carving. I wonder if I'm gripping tools too tightly or tensing up. Doing something different for a while helps with the cramps. As does a hand massager.

 

[Richard Coers]

Staying limber and relaxed is more critical than posture. Lots of jobs require people to be bent over. In some Japanese factories, they start shifts with exercise to limber up and warm muscles up. Ellsworth was always an advocate of stretching muscles and warming up.

 

[Sam Force]

I've had a lot of neck, shoulder issues lately that have kept me from doing ,much turning. My lathe is spindle height at the elbows, I'm starting to think it is too low. It use to be higher but for some reason I lowered it. Thinking now that might have been a mistake. I've had a dozen PT appointments and got some relief but still not right

 

[Steve Tiedman]

I'm definitely not one to practice what I preach here (as I note below), but I've been told by PTs and docs that core muscle strength up front goes far to support what happens at your back. Not a chiseled 6-pack, but abdominal muscle groups being fit and firm do a lot for spine support. Then there is lower and upper back muscle fitness and lower body fitness, another subject altogether...

Lathe height- for 20-some years, my lathes have been at elbow height. But it depends where you measure that height. Tip of elbow with a loose hanging arm? Not for me.

With regular shop footwear on my feet, feet located below my hips, and hanging my arm to my side, I bend my lower arm up to 90°, parallel to the floor. Then I (or better yet a helper) measure from the floor to the inside bend of my elbow, right where to top surface of my forearm meets that 90° bend of my arm. (Or stand with your bent arm along a wall and use a pencil held level to make a tick mark of the height on the wall.) This height is somewhat higher (up to several inches depending on the beefcake build of your arms) than elbow tip of a relaxed hanging arm. But, this is the height limit for me- any higher, and although it may feel good to my lower back, tool control becomes sacrificed- wrists have to bend harder and shoulders hunch upward to maintain tool control. Not good.

Arm girth- if you're someone with big, muscular arms (I'd say I'm a fella of average build, with too much foam can cooler around an empty 6-pack!), you may want to temper the notion of going as high as I describe. Start there, but lower the lathe incrementally if the height doesn't work for those big guns of yours. Maybe start at the point of where the center of the elbow joint is located with the 90° bent arm, and go up or down from there. (All of this is just guesswork based on my personal experience. I'm no expert in body mechanics.)

There is no one-size-fits-all method to any of this. Your arms, from shoulder to wrist, may be longer or shorter. Your upper arm specifically may be longer or shorter, affecting the universal notion of elbow-to-spindle relationship. Get this measurement from both arms- maybe you naturally tilt to one side or the other, affecting the results. Only you will know what is right for your body, and that will take a bit of experimentation.

 

[Doug Freeman]

However I have problems with hand cramps, especially with small, detailed things, not only at the lathe or carving. I wonder if I'm gripping tools too tightly or tensing up. Doing something different for a while helps with the cramps. As does a hand massager.

Could well be some carpal tunnel starting to creep in. Look up stretches for it.

 

[John K Jordan]

Could well be some carpal tunnel starting to creep in. Look up stretches for it.pian

Good thing to think about. However, I've had nerve conduction tests in the past when started getting finger problems, numbness and such, from working way too many hours at the computer keyboard creating code. They found some ulnar nerve impingement but no carpal tunnel issues.

Stretches do help me, plus finger strength exercises. A phys. therapist had me use some finger exercise devices which helped so I bought a set in with a variety of spring tensions. Might try using those more than occasionally. Changing activities helps.

Might be the cold weather. In the past, in cold weather I'd soak my hands in a sink of hot water before playing in a piano recital or performance. Had an amazing effect. I might try that the next time. Maybe I need to put in a hot tub!

 

[Odie]

My back and neck issues have disappeared since getting a swivel headstock lathe. Not only that, but the big back brace I used to wear, is now gathering dust!

Also, I think there is a lot of truth to the notion of getting exercise as we grow older helps solve many issues.....

I exercise daily and have been doing so regularly for the past 30 years.

=o=

 

[Brent@TurnRobust]

The late great David Ellsworth goes over posture and positioning yourself at the lathe in some detail in this book: https://www.amazon.com/Ellsworth-Wo...8580783&sprefix=david+ellsworh,aps,151&sr=8-1

 

[robo hippy]

Many years ago, I was a gymnast. 6 foot tall and 195 pounds. I liked that better than football.... Anyway, one exercise we did for posture was to stand with our heels, butt, shoulders and head against the wall. If we could slip our hand through behind the small of our backs, we had too much arch in our back/ If we could barely get our fingers behind our lower spine, that was good. If you try to pin your fingers to the wall by using your abbs, from your belly button down, that was the feeling/tension needed for ideal posture. If you had any arch at all in your back when doing spinning moves, you would have no idea where you would end up since the arch would throw you off. This is the feeling I have to find while swimming. I do need more exercise, lost too many weeks out of the pool last year. Going to do better.

I did residential concrete construction for most of 30 years. I figure that contributed to needing both hips and one knee being replaced. No problems with the rest of my joints thus far. If I am swimming freestyle, I can't go much past 500 yards before my forearms and fingers start to tingle. I do a lot of wrist mobility stretches. For sure, the need for exercise never diminishes. As a life long athlete, I have always considered exercise to be mental and physical therapy.... The pool is my thing now. What can I say, Johnny Weissmuller was my child hood hero. Well, one of them.

robo hippy

 

[hughie]

I can't remember any aches (back, lets, neck, shoulders, etc) at the lathe. I do move a lot when turning. However I have problems with hand cramps, especially with small, detailed things, not only at the lathe or carving. I wonder if I'm gripping tools too tightly or tensing up. Doing something different for a while helps with the cramps. As does a hand massager.

Another thing about cramping fingers is hydration and Magnesium, if lacking both will add to the cramping issue . I supplement Magnesium to around 500mg daily and routinely drink 2-3 litres of water. White-knuckle turning lol yeah that doesn't seem to help me either, I spent some time retraining myself out of this problem. Still get cramps from time to time, generally towards a long stint at the lathe or cold, for the cold I wear half finger gloves. Some folk fear wearing gloves with spinny things, but if you turn hardwood the hand that guides the gouge cops a steady flow of very hot chips and that ain't comfortable in the least. Add to that, I turn with both hands, so gloves to both hands.

 

[John K Jordan]

if you turn hardwood the hand that guides the gouge cops a steady flow of very hot chips and that ain't comfortable in the least.

Something I discovered: if I turn dry hardwood with a bowl gouge of the grind I use, hot chips are guided towards my "front" hand. However, if I turn the same wood with a Hunter Hercules tool the chips come off at a different angle and miss my hand. I like the small Hunter Hercules, one of my favorites for spindles, bowls, platters, and more..

2nd one from the top in the left photo:


JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

I am a very heavy sweater! When in the pool, I go through a lot of electrolytes. I have met only a few people who say Magnesium is their key element to take when cramping. That is unusual. For me, it is salt/sodium. This is why your sweat is salty.... Working outside in the summer, I am crusted with salt. Potassium is another electrolyte. Raisins and potato skins have a lot of sodium in them. I never peel my potatoes! I thought it was just because I was a good Irishman.... The best product I have found for staying hydrated are tabs from Precision Hydration. I was chatting with a triathlon guy at the pool and he said that the stuff I take is better for heavy sweaters like me. Most people don't need as much of the electrolytes as I do.... Make sure to stretch, in all directions!

robo hippy

 

[Odie]

....when cramping. For me, it is salt/sodium. This is why your sweat is salty.

I wish I would sweat more than I do, because I understand that sweating eliminates toxins in the body.

When I was in high school, I was on the football team. I remember being given salt tablets because of the very thing you mentioned, robo......

=o=

 

[John K Jordan]

I never peel my potatoes! I thought it was just because I was a good Irishman....

I don't peel the potatoes either. But I never knew heritage was the reason! I eat them with skins since our mother said to.
(My parents said our people were Scotch, Irish, and German immigrants, according to my reading one of the major European ethnic diversity "spreads" in the USA.)

JKJ

 

[John Torchick]

robo hippy, potato peelings are also the source for vitamins, minerals and fiber.
john J., I knew a fellow was about a fifth scotch.

 

[robo hippy]

As a Scotsman once said, "No laddie, Scotch is what you drrrrrink!"

robo hippy

 

[John K Jordan]

As a Scotsman once said, "No laddie, Scotch is what you drrrrrink!"

robo hippy

Or my all-time favoritest tape for shop, house, and barn: Scotch #2060.
It's about as far from the wimpy box store green painter's tape as a Thompson gouge is from a nail file.
I never tried drinking it.



JKJ

 

[Jeff Sneddon]

After Bill's comments about health and turning, I was pondering that while swimming laps in the pool. You do have a lot of time to ponder things.... Just how important is it to stand up straight? Being a swimmer, everything is about reducing drag. This mostly comes as body position, which is posture, plain and simple. To have good "posture" in the water, we need good core engagement, which as one Speedo coach said, "Suck in your gut like you are trying to put your belly button on your spine!" When we were young, we didn't have to think about sucking in our guts, it just happened naturally. As we get older, we tend to "relax" a lot more. All of that "relaxing" means that our body has to "compensate", which to means lower back problems, sciatica, and other ailments can be a result of bad posture while standing at the lathe and turning. I keep wondering if and/or how much this bad posture contributes to those aches and pains we get while turning.... Comments?

robo hippy

Posture is certainly key but having the correct footwear is also important. I have had lower back issues for years. I started wearing OOFOS Clogs at the recommendation of a seasoned turner. When turning any back pain at the lathe has disappeared. These are not good to walk around in, but are instead designed for standing in one place for a long time. My lathe is a little higher that recommended elbow at the spindle height.

​

 

[John K Jordan]

These are not good to walk around in, but are instead designed for standing in one place for a long time.

Yikes, I didn't get the memo! Oofos are indeed wonderful for standing for hours even on concrete at the lathe or bandsaw. In my case I had severe foot pain and a some back pain. They have wonderful thick spongy arch support which was exactly what my feet needed. Far better than the custom shoe inserts I'd (er, my insurance) had spent a fortune on over the years.

But I wear some almost all day unless in deep mud or snow - around the farm feeding the horses, carrying water for the peacocks, herding llamas. Walking around Italy and Costa Rica. I usually walk 6-10 miles a day unless it's FREEZING or pouring rain. Pavement, gravel, in the woods, fields. on trails, up and down hills. driving the tractor, gardening, climbing short ladders, driving, cleaning stalls, shoveling, raking, walking around stores, to doctor's appointments, casual weddings, funerals - almost everywhere. But they are NOT good on ice!! And don't insulate well when its below freezing. Also, as they get used a lot they tend to get a little looser.

I keep some clean and pretty and some dirty and ragged. I usually throw them away when I wear a hole in the sole of one and my sock get wet in a puddle.

Of course I've worn out a bunch of pairs! But my serious foot pain just plain disappeared with the Oofos. A friend told me about them years ago - actually brought me a pair and said try these! I've since told a lot of people and I know some who wear them now. A guy who stood behind a counter all day at the farm store said they fixed his long-time terrible foot pain. One son and several friends wear them now. I showed them to my foot doctor and told him they were the reason I hadn't been back in a few years for more shots for plantar fasciitis. He said, as doctors tend to, "Hmmm..."

I've found them in shoe stores but Amazon tells me I usually buy some several times a year. They're not real cheap like house slippers but they're a lot cheaper than pain.

Amazon.com

JKJ

 

[Steve Tiedman]

@Jeff Sneddon and @John K Jordan, I'm game to try these Oofos thingies. (Very out of character for me, my wife will surely point and giggle.) Some days I want to axe off my left foot. I've told my podiatrist that I'm a turner and can easily make a peg leg.

Anyway, how is the honesty of the sizing? 11 to 11.5 wide suits most footwear for me, but I have to bump up to 12 for my Dr. prescribed custom orthotics. But shop time is what taxes that foot. Should I go with an 11, or a 12? Just trying to avoid returns... Thanks!

 

[Roger Wiegand]

Lathe (and bench) height make a big difference for me, taller being better. Another observation is that I lost close to 60 lbs over the last year (on purpose) and most of my back and leg pain has vanished. I can now work for hours at a time at the lathe without needing to sit to let things re-equilibrate.

I don't ever have foot pain (yay!-- at least one thing not hurting) but don't the oofos continuously fill up with chips? Most styles look pretty minimal to nonexistent for toe protection-- can you get them with steel or other reinforced toes? (didn't see that on Google). I generally wear boots or tall shoes that are covered by my pant legs to keep the chips out of my socks. Seems like even a tiny chip can be incredibly irritating.

 

[John K Jordan]

Anyway, how is the honesty of the sizing?

I wear a size 10 shoe and the Oofos sized "12 Woman, 10 Men" work for me.
But buy from Amazon and return if they don't fit. Sometimes my wife buys several sizes of something and returns those that don't fit. I think she said they had a program for clothes that encouraged that.

but don't the oofos continuously fill up with chips?

I've never had a significant problem. Maybe it depends on how and what one turns. For example, a bowl gouge funnels chips right towards me and lots of chips go towards my feet (they also hot on the hands with dry wood!) but a Hunter Hercules spits the chips off to the side. (And cuts better for some things, IMO.)

Wearing them everywhere, I occasionally get a small stick or bit of gravel in the shoe but I just lift my foot off the ground, the heel end tilts down, and a gentle shake always clears it.

Never investigated any other Oofos styles or options.

This is the third type of shoe my friend brought me to try. He earlier brought me Crocs Yukon clogs then Telic Unisex Dream Clogs, both with straps, and although they worked for him they didn't help me nearly as much as the Oofos. The arch support wasn't wasn't effective for MY feet and the material was much harder. Also, working outdoors I kept knocking one side of the strap loose, sometimes tearing the the strap at the hole.

Might try all three brands and decide.

JKJ