HSS questions

[David Martin]

It has been said that the disappointment in poor quality lasts a lot longer than the thrill of low price. I am not shopping price, I don't mind spending extra money if I'm getting something for it. At the moment I'm looking at Hurricane tools over at the Woodturning store, but my questions probably apply to other brands as well, and I would welcome suggestions on other brands and sources. They offer four grades, M42cryo, M2cryo, M2HSS, and HSS. The first three are said to be made in cooperation with Crown Tools, the last not so. The description of the M42cryo and M2cryo claim to hold an edge three times longer than M2, and are similar in price. The M2HSS claims to hold an edge six times longer than carbon steel, and curiously, the HSS claims to hold an edge eight times longer than carbon steel. The HSS (M1?) is significantly less expensive than the other three and is available in sizes that are not available in the other three. They even suggest buying multiples and grinding them into custom shapes, an idea that I kind of like. Where is my money best spent? If it makes a difference most of my turning is going to be kiln dried hardwood, mostly Ash and Maple.

 

[Doug Freeman]

I likely evaluate purchases differently than most. When I have overpaid for a tool, it pains me forever - I “cry” every time I see one or think about one. Not so when a budget tool breaks or doesnt do the job. Anyway…

When I started turning ~10 years ago all of the tools I purchased were Benjamins Best at PSI and Hurricane - only hss was available then. This allowed me to buy and try all sizes of spindle and bowl gouges, scrapers, skews, parting, etc. It also encouraged trying different grinds etc as I was not grinding away a $100 tool. They hold an edge just fine and all of the tool availability allowed me to try many sizes and grinds while also figuring out how I preferred to do things and what tools I used the most. It was a several year journey until I purchased my 1st hi $ tool, a Thompson/Jamieson 5/8 BG. I have since added other hi $ 5/8 BG’s and 3/8&1/2” SG. That’s been enough for me. I do have an m2 Crown bedan.

Most were bens best, particularly scrapers - the bb scrapers are a bit thicker vs hurricane. Most all of those tools are still in use, some ground into custom tools etc.

I got a set of Rc hardness test files for the shop for various uses. For the heck of it I tested the hardness of a bunch of those hi value tools - all exceeded Rc 60.

I have Crown m42 and pm tools - both hold an edge better vs m2 and are great choices (when I have checked I could get Crown cheaper vs the hurricane equivalent in m42). Thompson V10 holds the best edge.

I recommend the hss hurricane or bens best and when used up step up to pm or m42 for the few tools you use a lot.

 

[Simeon Mackrides]

I research the tools before I buy.
IMO cheap is rarely 'the best' and my time is worth something because I turn as a hobbyist.
Since my time at the lathe is limited, I elected to go with Thompson Lathe Tools to include his handles.
In my opinion:
#1 Thompson makes a better handle than I can.
#2 Thompson's handles don't roll around should you set them on the ways. I get a serious case of 'clench' when I'm working a large bowl, and the gouge I just set down begins to move around while I'm focusing on the cut.
#3 Thompson's CV steel gouges hold an edge longer than the other brands I have tried.

When I began turning, I was going to place a big order with Thompson Tools. I called them and would up speaking to Doug Thompson himself. Doug told me that I didn't need most of what I was considering, and he recommended some tools he felt a 'novice' should begin with. I recall that he recommended that I get a Hurricane SRG. He thought that as a novice, there was no need for SRG costing several hundred dollars.
Doug told me to gain some time at the lathe and come back when I felt the need.
I have been buying Thompson Tools ever since. and years later I have garnered a fairly sizable collection.

 

[Dean Center]

I basically agree with Doug, though as he notes, we may be in the minority. I have 4 thoughts.

1. M2 and HSS are normally considered the same. If Hurricane is differentiating them, it's because the Crown/M2 (or M2 from any quality brand) is more consistent than their "HSS" tools, which probably use inferior steel that is potentially going to have short or irregular tempering. My personal experience with Benjamin's Best inexpensive tools is like Doug's--surprisingly good for the price and I don't mind blowing the dollars on learning to sharpen or changing stuff around.
2. New turners probably can't tell the difference or benefit from the advantages of more advanced steels. One peculiar advantage of lesser steel is that you have to sharpen more often, which means you learn sharpening faster.
3. There are more differences between the cheaper tools and the more expensive tools than the steel. The cheap tool handles are less robust around the tang or shaft of the tool, and potentially more easily broken. The flute shape on the more expensive tool may be a different design. (The English style tools will have a parabolic/elliptical flute, the Thompson tools a modified V flute, and the cheaper tools might have any kind of flute, including one that won't sharpen into the grind shape you like.)
4. Some of the M42 steel tools are overpriced for the value, IMHO and experience.

 

[robo hippy]

When I first started, I went to Craft Supplies USA and got one of their sets. I still have some of them. I did get one gouge, maybe from Packard can't really remember, and it was one that was supposed to cut 5 times longer. Didn't realize how much difference there was until I went back to my old M2 gouges. Now, I use Thompson and D Way tools, which are V10 and M42. To me, the advantage is that you can rough out a lot more wood with these tools before you have to go back to the grinder, emphasis on have.... For finish cuts, I almost always resharpen. You can buy 'signature' tools, and you pay a bit more because some one's name is on the tool, but it really isn't any better, and you can grind any tool to any profile you want. I never buy the cheapest tool. We had a sharpening station event at our club once and I tool a no name scraper that was supposed to be high speed steel. For sure, it was not. If you can afford it, I would go with the Thompson or D Way. You buy direct from the people that make the tools. As for handles, I make my own most of the time. I prefer a straight cylinder, and one that is rather thick, like 1 1/4 minimum. That type just fits my hands better.

robo hippy

 

[Monty Ivy]

Good advice above. Tell us about your plan to keep your tools sharp. How you do that is totally up to you, but the important part is that you have a plan. For some, sharpening can have a steep learning curve. The learning curve can lead to short tools and lots of dust under the grinder. Give this some thought before investing big money in M42 steel. Better to learn this aspect of woodturning on a $75 tool instead of a $200 dollar tool.

 

[David Martin]

Lots of good replies, thanks to all!

My day job involves the use of a variety of wood cutting hand tools, planes, chisels, etc. I got into this line of work in the mid 80s and have been sharpening my own tools ever since. Grinds like on a sweptback gouge are something I haven't done, but I did buy a jig for that and don't expect much of a learning curve there.

There seems to be nearly universal agreement that for the more commonly used tools the better quality ones are worth the extra money. I can see a place for the lower quality/price tools for grinding into custom shapes or for tools that will see only occasional use.

I have managed to turn out a couple things using all the wrong tools. I will probably post some pictures of those and get into a little more detail, but this gives me a good idea of where I want to go from here. Thanks again to all!!

 

[David Martin]

Also, in my research I have noticed Thompsons name coming up quite a bit and they seem to be well regarded. I looked at his site, for quality tools they seem to be reasonably priced. I like the privately owned small business aspect of it too. Robo mentioned making his own handles, I've got enough scrap Ash to keep me busy making tool handles for a very long time, and turning practice that has the potential to produce something useful just has to be a good thing.

 

[Monty Ivy]

I've got some Thompsons, Carter & Sons, as well as D-way. Of the three, my personal preference is D-Way.

 

[hockenbery]

With bowl gouges You will see a bigger difference in flute design that in the steel they are made from.
if you are using the Ellsworth grind. With a 1/2” gouge (5/8” bar)
the gouges I like for the Ellsworth grind are:
the Henry taylor Hss is a nice tool
the robust gouge is a nicer tool
and the Jamison gouge made by Thompson is my favorite

i have all three and use them interchangeably with 2 exception’s
if I’m cutting the inside rim of a Natural Edge I grab one of the Jamison gouges
if I’m hollowing a bowl a grab a Henry taylor I keep the heel of the bevel ground off.

Spindle Tools - most of mine are crown or Henry Taylor hss

 

[Doug Freeman]

There seems to be nearly universal agreement that for the more commonly used tools the better quality ones are worth the extra money. I can see a place for the lower quality/price tools for grinding into custom shapes or for tools that will see only occasional use.

The challenge is figuring out which tools will be used most. Its a combination of what is turned and how you prefer to do it.

Just an example - i turn mainly chainsaw cut blanks, bark on, irregularly shaped. Often I chuck up a full dia piece of log for a hollow form, spindle orientation. Many would use a SRG, but I prefer a BG to get it at least near round, then may use a SRG to finish off all bark removal and some shaping. Others may prefer a SRG to do it all - both work, neither is wrong, its just personal preference. My BB SRG is just fine for the way I use it, but a preference for using it more makes it a candidate for better steel. It takes time and experience to figure it out.

Handles are purely personal choice. Some love heavy, some light, etc. some want one handle for many tools (a must if you demo and travel). Being frugal I never felt the need for name brand handles, preferring to make my own as needed. One thing to consider - bigger BG’s are clunky to swing side to side with a jig. Being able to remove the handle from my 5/8” shaft BG’s for sharpening became a requirement (there are several ways to do this). I also wanted a bit longer handle on them, somewhat for better leverage, but mainly for getting the back hand in the right position. Handles are fun and you can do some different things with them. Then there are the numerous shop made hollowing tools Ive made, and they need handles too.

My other tools arent a problem and have the oem handles - none have broken, many are BB and Hurricane.

 

[Dean Center]

My day job involves the use of a variety of wood cutting hand tools, planes, chisels, etc. I got into this line of work in the mid 80s and have been sharpening my own tools ever since. Grinds like on a sweptback gouge are something I haven't done, but I did buy a jig for that and don't expect much of a learning curve there.

All the following, IMHO, and not universally agreed upon.

Coming into sharpening turning tools from a background in flat work is a small liability. Coming from woodcarving is a major liability.

Plane blades need to be very sharp and carving tools need to be scary sharp. Sharp turning tools are nice, too, but...A 12" bowl blank turning at 1200 rpm sends wood into your gouge at 60 mph. That's 5280 feet in a minute. How long would it take you to plane 5000 feet of wood? Would you resharpen before you got to the last foot?

For many of us, spending the time to achieve scary sharp on a turning tool doesn't make sense. Reasonably sharp, with an understanding that you'll be spending 30 seconds re-sharpening shortly, is adequate in woodturning.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Yeah, Dean makes a good point. Getting turning tools scary sharp has a poor return on the time invested. Your experience with working with your hands and careful grinding will pay dividends though.

 

[David Martin]

With bowl gouges You will see a bigger difference in flute design that in the steel they are made from.
if you are using the Ellsworth grind. With a 1/2” gouge (5/8” bar)
the gouges I like for the Ellsworth grind are:
the Henry taylor Hss is a nice tool
the robust gouge is a nicer tool
and the Jamison gouge made by Thompson is my favorite

i have all three and use them interchangeably with 2 exception’s
if I’m cutting the inside rim of a Natural Edge I grab one of the Jamison gouges
if I’m hollowing a bowl a grab a Henry taylor I keep the heel of the bevel ground off.

Spindle Tools - most of mine are crown or Henry Taylor hss

I hope to be able to notice subtle differences between bowl gouges some day. For now I need to work on learning to use one at all. Walk before you run, you know.

 

[David Martin]

All the following, IMHO, and not universally agreed upon.

Coming into sharpening turning tools from a background in flat work is a small liability. Coming from woodcarving is a major liability.

Plane blades need to be very sharp and carving tools need to be scary sharp. Sharp turning tools are nice, too, but...A 12" bowl blank turning at 1200 rpm sends wood into your gouge at 60 mph. That's 5280 feet in a minute. How long would it take you to plane 5000 feet of wood? Would you resharpen before you got to the last foot?

For many of us, spending the time to achieve scary sharp on a turning tool doesn't make sense. Reasonably sharp, with an understanding that you'll be spending 30 seconds re-sharpening shortly, is adequate in woodturning.

I understand that a blade doesn't always need to be razor sharp. If I need to get rid of a lot of wood I'll plow through it with a (relatively) dull plane then sharpen it up when I get close and need a clean cut. Not really much different than the way you treat your lathe tools.

 

[hockenbery]

I hope to be able to notice subtle differences between bowl gouges some day. For now I need to work on learning to use one at all. Walk before you run, you know.

i agree. Settle on a grind profile and learn to use it well. Then experiment with other grinds.
if you take a quality class or get mentoring from a local club that will include an introduction to a grind.
the grind profile will lead you toward a flute profile.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

A 12" bowl blank turning at 1200 rpm sends wood into your gouge at 60 mph. That's 5280 feet in a minute.

For the sake of niggling precision that's actually about 43mph. Also toward the upper end of safe with a sound, balanced well-secured blank and an experienced turner. As you said recently, there's a range from "Reed sanding-->too slow-->comfortable fast-->scary fast-->Jimmy Clewes". For me your example would be in the scary fast range, for Stewart Batty just another day at the office. Off topic, I know, but worth considering for a new turner.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Also, in my research I have noticed Thompsons name coming up quite a bit and they seem to be well regarded. I looked at his site, for quality tools they seem to be reasonably priced. I like the privately owned small business aspect of it too. Robo mentioned making his own handles, I've got enough scrap Ash to keep me busy making tool handles for a very long time, and turning practice that has the potential to produce something useful just has to be a good thing.

I have Sorby, Thompson and D-Way and like them all. As far as handles I buy shovel handles and cut them to length. I can get two or three out of one shovel handle. They are already the perfect size for my hand so fairly quick and easy. Cindy Drozda sells the Thompson adapters and I put those on all of my handles.

 

[hughie]

For me I would be looking seriously at the M42 CRYO. M42 holds a better edge than most other HSS and if the cryo method is akin to the Thompson tools, it would be a winner. I currently have a D-way 3/4 M42 gouge, and it cuts well, although it struggles on some of the hardwoods I play with. But so do all my other tools, including 5/8 Thompson, the only exception is my Tungsten Carbide gouge tip.

 

[Mike Novak]

I was recently shopping, and was surprised to find that I could get Thompson without handle for $30 less than Hurricane cryo with handle. You can easily make a nice handle for lots less than $30.

I ended up buying a Thompson handle anyway to see how I like a weighted one. So much for saving money.

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Late to the conversation, but I want to amplify something Doug said. All tools (not just bowl gouges) are easier to sharpen if the handles come off. So while you may make your own handle, make it removable.

Oneway's Mastercut tools are handle less AND double ended, so you can try out two different grinds on the same tool. They require a handle with a deep socket (e.g. Oneway, Trent Bosch).

 

[odie]

It has been said that the disappointment in poor quality lasts a lot longer than the thrill of low price. I am not shopping price, I don't mind spending extra money if I'm getting something for it. At the moment I'm looking at Hurricane tools over at the Woodturning store, but my questions probably apply to other brands as well, and I would welcome suggestions on other brands and sources. They offer four grades, M42cryo, M2cryo, M2HSS, and HSS. The first three are said to be made in cooperation with Crown Tools, the last not so. The description of the M42cryo and M2cryo claim to hold an edge three times longer than M2, and are similar in price. The M2HSS claims to hold an edge six times longer than carbon steel, and curiously, the HSS claims to hold an edge eight times longer than carbon steel. The HSS (M1?) is significantly less expensive than the other three and is available in sizes that are not available in the other three. They even suggest buying multiples and grinding them into custom shapes, an idea that I kind of like. Where is my money best spent? If it makes a difference most of my turning is going to be kiln dried hardwood, mostly Ash and Maple.

After turning nothing but bowls for the past 41 years, I've used many brands of tools, and types of steel. I have come to settle on M2 steel as the ideal turning steel. There are other steels where the makers claim it has so many times the edge holding ability over M2 steel.....but, in reality, this is not the most important aspect of turning and tool steels. What's really important is keeping the tool at it's sharpest level.....continuously. The aspect that's really wrong with the exotic steels, is the rate of dulling the edge becomes so slow that determining whether you can get the best possible cut at any one moment during the edge's lifespan becomes problematic. Many turners (including myself in the past) end up wasting a lot of effort turning with a tool that isn't as sharp as it could be. Not only have you wasted your effort, you've also wasted wood that could have cut with better precision, had it been just a little bit sharper.

From my point of view, the whole object in turning a cross-grain bowl, is to do it with as little necessary sanding as possible, while eliminating aggressive sanding entirely. That way, the geometric integrity of the entire surface is better upheld, opening doors to more intricate detail in the finished turning......details that are impossible to create cleanly, and precisely......with "eye appeal". Aggressive sanding destroys any chance of having this high level of intricate details.

My advice is to stick with M2 steel tools, and there are many brands that use it. In recent times, the most popular brand with me has been Henry Taylor made "Artisan" brand tools available from Craft Supplies USA. They are the same tools that Henry Taylor uses for their name brand tools, but a little less attention to polishing. They are bargain based tools, and are the same M2 steel.

The most important thing is to learn sharpening......and the art of honing a cutting edge with diamond hones. Get a good sharpening system and learn it, but be well aware that a traditional grind, when formed right for the task at hand, is every bit as effective as the almost universally popular swept back grinds turners are using today. I started out using the traditional grind, and evolved to the Ellsworth type grinds over a period of 20+ years or so......and, then returned to the traditional grind that I exclusively use today. The traditional grind is done using the v-arm of the wolverine sharpening system, while rotating the gouge along it's longitudinal axis against the grinding wheel. The grind angle can be increased, or decreased, depending on the intended use of the gouge. The wings can be done with more or less curve to them, and this is something you'll discover, the better you get at shaping a traditionally ground gouge. I'm using an 80gt SG Norton wheel, but keep in mind that my grinding is never to form a cutting edge.....it is to remove metal and shape the tool up to the edge.....but, the edge itself is completely done with the diamond hones. (Major shaping is done on another grinder with a standard 60gt wheel.)

Although the shape of the grind is done totally on the wolverine jig, the tip of the cutting edge is completely the product of honing with diamond hones. I'd say I re-sharpen bowl gouges 10+ times with the diamond hone for every time I return it to the grinder. The more often you re-sharpen with the diamond hones, the easier it is to do.....because the less steel at the tip needs to be removed to restore that finely created cutting edge. Because you do it so frequently, you naturally get better at doing it......and, the faster it is to do. It takes less than a minute to refresh the cutting edge with a diamond hone. The whole trick is for the turner to make the decision to return the tool to the bench for refreshing the edge. When the tool edge dulls a little more quickly, it's far easier to make that decision.

-----odie-----

 

[David Martin]

Interesting perspective, and for you it makes perfect sence. Maybe for me too. Wouldn't apply to someone doing production work and interested in volume, but that's definately not me. I'd much rather spend my time sharpening than sanding!!

BTW, Is the typo in the title of this thread gnawing at anyone elses OCD, or is it just me?

 

[Tom Gall]

BTW, Is the typo in the title of this thread gnawing at anyone elses OCD, or is it just me?

Yes, me too. Looks like one of those alphabet soup government organizations!

 

[Doug Freeman]

Well….the typo wasnt bothering me until you guys pointed it out. I guess I was just ignoring it…

 

[Doug Freeman]

With regards to @odie ’s post, there is a lot truth to it. I suspect I do a lot more roughing of a blank, and probably more bark (especially on hf’s), as I start with chainsawed blanks. The better steels are worth it to me for that - they hold a significant advantage over m2. Sometimes I have a “rough out party”, and the longer edge life really shines.

I resharpen for finish cuts, and from that point to the finished product, the better steels do not have an advantage. Usually an inclusion or something in the wood that takes the edge off m2 will do the same with the better steels, so resharpening is need with any steel. I use an m2 traditional grind quite a bit for finish ID cuts, sometimes OD.

Rather than hone a BG, the wet wheel I use is dressed with the fine side of a tormek dressing stone, which is supposed to be 1000gr - it seems do as well or better than a 600gr diamond hone.

 

[robo hippy]

For me, the whole point of the 'lasts 10 times longer' types of metals is that you can do a lot more roughing out before you set off the smoke alarms. Since I use scrapers for all of my roughing, that is not essential for me. I still like the M42 and V10 better than standard M2. I got an early gouge from Packard, many years ago before Thompson and D Way were in existence, and didn't realize how much difference there was until it had been worn down to a nub and I went back to a standard M2. The difference was astounding. I can't really remember if there is any difference in getting one sharper than the others. It has been a long time since I used M2.

robo hippy

 

[odie]

The better steels are worth it to me for that - they hold a significant advantage over m2. Sometimes I have a “rough out party”, and the longer edge life really shines.

For me, the whole point of the 'lasts 10 times longer' types of metals is that you can do a lot more roughing out before you set off the smoke alarms.

It took a long time before I read your posts here, Doug and robo......(Sometimes that's because there is a glitch in the "alerts" function, and I don't get the message that there has been a response.....oh, well!)

My only comment here is I believe your thoughts on the advantages of the exotic steels for sharpening are exactly the same as the great majority of turners. There are many turners who invest in these steels at great expense, and never really discover the full potential of the M2 steel as it relates to performance on the wood.....rather than performance of the steel. I know that statement will seem incongruent with current thinking, but it's the resulting thinking of my own very personal turning journey.

Sometimes, its an advantage to remain unexposed to what other turners are doing....the whats, whys, hows, and with what tools they use. By traveling the path less traveled, some doors will open to those who otherwise would never know the existence of those doors!

For me, my thoughts expressed in post #22 remain a constant, and are a great influencer of the kind of results that M2 steels and the traditional grind are capable of.

-o-