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I Be A Perfeshunel Wood Turner!

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<Please see my post script on Page 4 of this thread.>

:D I was at my favorite local wine store and noticed he had some turned wine stoppers at the counter. They were nice but way overpriced and not selling too well.

We struck up a conversation and he mentioned that he'd like to find a source of stoppers he could buy for $5 each and sell for under $10. One thing led to another and now I'm using the end pieces from pretty wood, spinning interesting shapes, hitting them with a shot of lacquer and a silicon stopper, and selling them to him.

Scrap wood - Free
Silicon stopper - $.60
Making pocket change by turning something pretty that will make someone happy, all while doing something I enjoy - PRICELESS!!! :cool2:
 
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john lucas

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Charlie around here I sell my cork based stoppers for $12 (the gallery gives me $7) and my Ruth Niles stainless steel based stoppers for $20
 
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Well, in your cost analysis you forgot sandpaper (unless you're that good a turner that you don't need to sand,) you forgot finish, you forgot your time cost (time is a non-renewable resource, once we use it, it's gone,) it has to be worth something in the equation.

I'm glad you feel you have a good deal, in my store we sell them for $14.95 and $19.95, and IMO that's too cheap. But they sell.

Jim
 

Bill Grumbine

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Interesting. He probably gets customers who will spend dozens to hundreds of dollars on a bottle of wine, but can't get them to spend $20.00 or so on a stopper that will last the rest of their lives?
 

john lucas

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Bill I buy $10 wine and just drink the whole bottle. Then I don't worry about how much my wine stoppers sell for.
 
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Bill Grumbine said:
Interesting. He probably gets customers who will spend dozens to hundreds of dollars on a bottle of wine, but can't get them to spend $20.00 or so on a stopper that will last the rest of their lives?

Maybe the people spending the big bucks on wine don't need stoppers. Who want's to drink stale wine? Once it's open it's gone. Nothing to stopper.

Maybe it's the people buying jugs of cheap wine that need stoppers and for them $20 for a stopper might be a bit high. That's like 4 gallons of cheap wine or something isn't it?

I drink beer, not wine (haven't found a need for a beer bottle stopper yet) so my wine stopper theory may be all wet.

Ed
 
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Congratulations. I know how it feels to have someone like your work enough to sell it. Good luck hopefully he will sell lots and it will branch out into something more for you.
Stacey

P.S. I agree with the other the few times that I have wine it is gone in one sitting, most of the time though I drink beer and I haven't seen a bottle stopper to fit in my beer bottles yet although I have never had any left over!
 

Bill Grumbine

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john lucas said:
Bill I buy $10 wine and just drink the whole bottle. Then I don't worry about how much my wine stoppers sell for.

Well John, I tell people we don't use stoppers personally because I can't find the ones that screw on! Besides, I prefer beer. Remember that night in Louisville? :cool2: We will be consuming beer again in NC in October. Will you be there?
 

Sky

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I used to sell wine stoppers to a realitor a dozens at a time. ( She has retired ). She bought a few first to give to friends as gifts so I asked --- Do you ever give a bottle of wine to your clients when they buy or sell a property with you? "Yes, of course", She replied. I replied - That bottle of wine is gone in one evening and they don't remember it a week later. If you give them a beautiful wood wine bottle stopper with it, they will be using it two years from now and will remember where it came from. All you have to do is ask. :cool2:
 
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Charlie, your post raises a few questions:
1. How do you define "overpriced"?
2.How do you know what the store owner paid for those overpriced items?
3.Many turners are trying to make a livlihood with their turned work...How can someone trying to make an honest living by selling his items expect to compete with your prices?
4.For five bucks each, how much emphasis do you put on form, fit, and finish?
5.Are you willing to drop you prices even further when the store owner tells you he can have each stopper made for $3.00 EACH... or less?
6.As an experienced cabinetmaker, what is your time and experience worth?

Not trying to rain on your parade, but please define "professional" for me.
 
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Need a Survey?

Not meaning to usurp this thread, but how about one of y'all that knows how do a wood turners drink survey? Apparently many are beer drinkers, some enjoying a a bottle of wine with their sweetie from time to time, etc. Just a thought.
 
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Hmmm.... Interesting thoughts have been raised here including a few questions. Let me respond to a few of them.

My intent with the dialectical spelling was that folks would understand the tongue-in-cheek nature of "perfeshunel". I make a very good living managing a power station for a major electric utility. Turning always has been and always will be a hobby. The wine stoppers are just pocket change. Mostly I get a kick out of knowing that someone likes my work. Yeh, it's a little bit of an ego thing for me I suppose.

This wine shop is unique in that it caters to common people. He doesn't have hundred-dollar bottles. He finds quality wines from small growers. He also find good values from large distributors. In short, his store is all about finding pleasant wines for working people who enjoy a nice bottle now and then and don't feel a need to impress folks with the price sticker.

Charlie, your post raises a few questions:
1. How do you define "overpriced"? The same stoppers have been at the front counter for six months. In our neighborhood, $15 is not a spontaneous purchase. Less than $10 is. By the way, half the stoppers I sold him were gone within the first two weeks.
2.How do you know what the store owner paid for those overpriced items? Retail of $15 with a 100% markup. Pretty basic.
3.Many turners are trying to make a livlihood with their turned work...How can someone trying to make an honest living by selling his items expect to compete with your prices? If someone is trying to support his family by hand turning wine stoppers, his business model is flawed. He needs to re-think his line of work.
4.For five bucks each, how much emphasis do you put on form, fit, and finish? I push boundaries and experiment every time I go to the lathe. Sometimes I'm more successful than others. The standard for what I sell to the shop is pretty simple: Would I give this stopper to my parents as a gift? If the answer is "yes", then form, fit, and finish are up to snuff.
5.Are you willing to drop you prices even further when the store owner tells you he can have each stopper made for $3.00 EACH... or less? Maybe. Maybe not. It depends on a lot of factors at the time when he asks.
6.As an experienced cabinetmaker, what is your time and experience worth? I used to do commission cabinet work. 'Found out it just wasn't much fun when deadlines and paychecks were involved. I now do it for fun and give away most of my work, and that includes cabinets, furniture, and turnings.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but please define "professional" for me. I am a registered professional engineer. I earn my livelihood by applying engineering skills, at all times keeping the best interest of the citizens of the State of Ohio and other domiciles at the forefront of all work, whether performed by me or under my supervision.

I be a perfeshunel wood turner, having fun and making a little pocket change along the way. :D
 
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Texian said:
Not meaning to usurp this thread, but how about one of y'all that knows how do a wood turners drink survey? Apparently many are beer drinkers, some enjoying a a bottle of wine with their sweetie from time to time, etc. Just a thought.


They ain't made a stopper for a gallon jug or mason jar...........yet?
 
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Marketing

I recently switched to the Ruth Niles SS stoppers from the chrome type but haven't raised my price of $20 ea. unless I've added an embellishment such as a cabochon or coin, then they're $25 - $35.

I sell at higher end craft shows and gift shops and two wineries.

I advertise them for wine, extra virgin olive oil bottles, designer balsamic vinegar, etc, this way I get the winos and foodies.

I sell 200 - 400 per year.
 
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Ok, But...

Charlie Harley said:
Hmmm.... Interesting thoughts have been raised here including a few questions. Let me respond to a few of them.

This wine shop is unique in that it caters to common people. He doesn't have hundred-dollar bottles. He finds quality wines from small growers. He also find good values from large distributors. In short, his store is all about finding pleasant wines for working people who enjoy a nice bottle now and then and don't feel a need to impress folks with the price sticker.

Charlie, your post raises a few questions:

3.Many turners are trying to make a livlihood with their turned work...How can someone trying to make an honest living by selling his items expect to compete with your prices? If someone is trying to support his family by hand turning wine stoppers, his business model is flawed. He needs to re-think his line of work.
:D
I think you may have missed the point (or, I could have...):
Without trying to impose "price controls," it is difficult for someone trying to sell ANYTHING turned in wood if there are similar items made with comparable materials being sold at much reduced prices... Wal-Mart comes to mind, they are market killers, and price is the only thing they have to offer. AND, if they can get an item for even a penny or two cheaper, they sell out their regular supplier for the "savings," no matter how reliable their previous supplier is/was.
If, on the one hand, there is no market for the product, it won't sell at any price. On the other hand, could it be possible that you, by undercutting the market, are making it more difficult for other turners who are turning other things that "SHOULD" be cheaper based on a comparison to your items?
In a free market, you are doing nothing "wrong." I think the idea of the question(s) was(were) to ask you to consider the larger impact on the marketplace as a whole. It would be sad for the masses of woodturners who ARE trying to make a living (not doing just, or in my case, ANY bottle stoppers, but) selling bowls, vases, hollow forms and the like, if people making "pocket change" undermined the larger marketplace...
Consider, that even with a "secure" job like yours that things CAN change, and that extra 50% per stopper might mean a lot if a change DID come... And the more you needed the money, the harder it would be to raise your prices once you establish your market price.
In the grander scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter much (if at all), but it is something to consider.
 
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Charlie

Congrats on your arrangement but don't be too rough on Keith. The wonderful thing about the free market is people can make decision based on thier own circumstances. A couple weeks ago I had the opportunity to meet and dine with a well known professional turner purely by happenstance. It was great fun. But ... during the course of the evening I shared pricing of a piece in the pictures I share on my PDA. I took a gentle scolding which made sense. It basically went that if my day job boss paid me that for the amount of time invested in creating and marketing the piece I would quit. He was right. There forever will be a struggle between talented amatuers and the pro's in our craft. The cause is not skill of the talented amatuer or the quality of their work created but in lack of confidence in the amatuers marketing skills compounded by the much lower need for the cash to pursue the craft itself by the amatuer.

Frank

PS: I sell alot of stoppers, Niles SS bases with stabilized burl blanks. Retail between $28 and $36 depending on venue. Don't sell yourself short.
 

Bill Grumbine

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Charlie Harley said:
If someone is trying to support his family by hand turning wine stoppers, his business model is flawed. He needs to re-think his line of work.

Would that hold true for bowls, hollow forms, production spindle work as well? Don't get me wrong, I am all for the free market and competition, but it ain't exactly competition if your income is subsidized by your electric company job. Still you are free to do as you please. I don't know about the parent test though. Ever since I have been a little boy, my parents have loved everything I ever made. Maybe they were just being polite.


Charlie Harley said:
I am a registered professional engineer. I earn my livelihood by applying engineering skills, at all times keeping the best interest of the citizens of the State of Ohio and other domiciles at the forefront of all work, whether performed by me or under my supervision.

That wouldn't be First Energy would it? You know, the guys who crashed the whole northeast grid back in '03? :D
 
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"If someone is trying to support his family by hand turning wine stoppers, his business model is flawed. He needs to re-think his line of work."

Would that hold true for bowls, hollow forms, production spindle work as well?


No. Each person has to decide the value of their time and everything that goes into a turning project. I think it would be very possible to earn a decent living doing top end work as you describe. It's just not for me.

To fill in a little more about the conversation, I loaned the wine store owner a turned bowl in which to display the stoppers. He liked it and asked what I would sell it for. I told him $50 minimum. He asked what I would sell it to him for if he were to put it on display for resale. I told him again, $50 minimum to cover my time and I don't care what he sells it for.

Once I explained that a stopper took five minutes to turn with scrap wood and a bowl took much, much longer, he caught on. I still might give him the bowl just because he's a really nice guy. :cool2:
 
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Charlie, I've spent over 30 years in the wood and furniture industry. I can assure you, scrap wood is not free, it is expensive. Last year my employer milled 45,000 bf of red oak for use in furniture parts. As part of my job, I reduced waste by 15% over previous years....for a net savings of $27,000.

The "overpriced" stoppers you mentioned, by my calculations, were being wholesaled at a whopping $7.50. Seems pretty reasonable to me. Many turners sell stoppers, pens, and other small items to compliment their regular work, and may rely on the additional income they provide....it may be just enough to support their turning hobby, if nothing else. All I'm really saying is don't underprice yourself. As a new turner, strive for excellence, not a low price.

I really don't want to get into an arguement with you....I'll bet you're not such a bad guy. In fact, if we ever meet at a symposium, be sure to introduce yourself....I'll buy you a beer, and we'll swap turning stories.
 
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Charlie Harley said:
To fill in a little more about the conversation, I loaned the wine store owner a turned bowl in which to display the stoppers. He liked it and asked what I would sell it for. I told him $50 minimum. He asked what I would sell it to him for if he were to put it on display for resale. I told him again, $50 minimum to cover my time and I don't care what he sells it for.

Once I explained that a stopper took five minutes to turn with scrap wood and a bowl took much, much longer, he caught on. I still might give him the bowl just because he's a really nice guy. :cool2:

I hope you don't mind if he sells the bowl once you give it to him. Since he's such a nice guy, why don't you just give him fifty bucks, sell the bowl to someone else and repocket the $50.

Also, the five minutes per stopper... are you really sure that's all it takes to make one? Try timing yourself from the moment you decide to make one through the wood selection/prep/mounting/turning/finishing/assembly.
 
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Owen Lowe said:
I hope you don't mind if he sells the bowl once you give it to him. Since he's such a nice guy, why don't you just give him fifty bucks, sell the bowl to someone else and repocket the $50.

Also, the five minutes per stopper... are you really sure that's all it takes to make one? Try timing yourself from the moment you decide to make one through the wood selection/prep/mounting/turning/finishing/assembly.

Even if you can complete a stopper in 5 minutes (mine take about 12 minutes total as described by Owen) you don't tell that to customers/potential customers, their reaction will be "Why should I pay $20 for something that this guy makes from "scrap" in only 5 minutes!"

Mine actually take much more than the 12 minutes that I mentioned, when the processing of wood, etc. is factored in, plus they're made from the finest figured domestic and exotic hardwoods, not from scrap (yes they're cutoffs from other projects but certainly not scrap). Last, they're mounted on high quality, food safe stainless steel stoppers which are guaranteed not to pit and they seal every time. A fine, high end, handmade work of craftsmanship.
Mike
 
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R

Ron Sardo

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Congratulations!

It looks like someone finally figured a way to beat the Chinese at thier own game.
 

john lucas

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I've watched Nick Cook turn a bottle stopper in 3 minutes. Takes me a little longer, 5 to 7 but that doesn't count cutting the blanks drilling the holes and taking the stoppers to my gallery (gas, time etc) Of course I don't do this full time so there's always wasted time.
I don't want to argue price, anyone can charge whatever they want. That's capitalizm, however I do believe you are shooting yourself in the foot if you don't at least try to match the prices you see in your area.
I'm doing this for a second income so if I can charge a little more I try to. Still I know my prices are lower than some others. My area just doesn't get the highest prices for ARt or Craft.
 
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who needs wine stoppers?

I never got into making them as I personally don't see the need. They don't fit in the refrig except on side, not needed for the box.
When Walter Matthau (sp? Grumpier Old Men, or Grumpy old men) brought Sophia Loren a box of wine, I nearly fell out of my seat laughing-it was even my brand!!!!! :D Gretch
 
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john lucas said:
I've watched Nick Cook turn a bottle stopper in 3 minutes. Takes me a little longer, 5 to 7 but that doesn't count cutting the blanks drilling the holes and taking the stoppers to my gallery (gas, time etc) Of course I don't do this full time so there's always wasted time.
I don't want to argue price, anyone can charge whatever they want. That's capitalizm, however I do believe you are shooting yourself in the foot if you don't at least try to match the prices you see in your area.
I'm doing this for a second income so if I can charge a little more I try to. Still I know my prices are lower than some others. My area just doesn't get the highest prices for ARt or Craft.
I have been selling antiques for about 30 years (to make a living). I learned EARLY that you can always lower the price to meet the market, but you can't raise the price once you have a deal.
My point is, it's more like kneecapping in my mind. If you found a $20.00 laying on the ground, every seven minutes (assuming that is possible), would you spend it like it was a $10.00???
Charlie,
I know you are proud of your accomplishment, and I really do understand why, even if I don't agree with you about it...
You have every right to sell the fruits of your labor for whatever price you choose, I'm just not sure you are doing yourself or the rest of us (not that you should worry about the rest of us, that's capitalism) any REAL favors.
Make a better product and sell it to the store owner for the same price as the other guy?
 
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I don't know whether my line of thinking makes sense.
You are an engineer (I hope you don't sell yourself short in asking for your compensation from power company); you should be in the top tax bracket. It sounds you don't care about the income from selling your wine stoppers. Instead of subsidizing a wine store owner and under cutting the craftsmen who depend on the wrong model , I would suggest donating your turnings to a legitimate charity organization for benefit auctions. The American are very generous in charity giving. If your stoppers are going to sell for the the going rate of $20+, then the charity tax deduction for your income tax will be more than you can collect from the wine store. Knowing your stoppers sold for a good price, for a good cause ... Priceless.

One of our Clubs that I belong to collects Christmas ornaments from members and donates them to Children's Hospital for Auction, I think that is very meaningful.

Gordon

Disclaimer: You should consult your tax professional first. I haven't sold my first turning yet.
 
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Gretch said:
I never got into making them as I personally don't see the need. They don't fit in the refrig except on side, not needed for the box.
When Walter Matthau (sp? Grumpier Old Men, or Grumpy old men) brought Sophia Loren a box of wine, I nearly fell out of my seat laughing-it was even my brand!!!!! :D Gretch

At a show last weekend I was asked if I ever did bottle stoppers. I knew immediately they were urban people. "No, not much market here. Once you pop the top, a can of beer goes down fast." Imagine if the locals buy wine they'll get the kind with the twist-off top and keep it in the bag.

Grumpier, where he's "courting" Sophia Loren.
 
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...an educated public

I am a retired teacher with a pension large enough to support me. I am also a professional woodturner. I declare the money I make through woodturning to the Inland Revenue and pay tax on it. I am required to pay my National Insurance contributions from the money I make turning, together with advertising costs and all my other running costs. I charge sensible prices for my work which are in line with prices charged by other professional turners in the UK, and my business is successful although it will never make me rich.

To some extent it does irk me when I see other turners, possibly illegally, selling work at knock-down prices simply because they regard it as ‘a hobby’. Competition from cheap imports is bad enough without competition from the very people who should best understand the situation.

A frequent argument is that these turners are unknowns and therefore their work cannot command the large sums that the ‘big names’ get. I’ve heard people say that ‘If my name was Ray Key I’d sell it easily at twice the price’. The comment focuses entirely on the question of being known or not, as if that is the whole answer to the problem. The truth, as always, is more complex and involves the question of quality of work.

In many of the instances I see, the quality of the cheap work being offered varies from ‘appalling’ through to ‘poor’. On the whole, we woodturners are a nice bunch and we don’t want to put anyone down by telling them their work is poor, so we don’t. We hope they will realise and aim to raise their own standards but the truth is that many of them won’t and will soldier on for ever producing the same poor quality work. It is not my intention to insult anyone here, but when the cap fits I suppose we have to wear it.

However, the point is this – isn’t it quite right and proper that poorer quality work should be offered at a lower price? It seems reasonable enough to me that turned items should be available in a wide range of qualities at a wide range of prices, just as other items are. The desk I’m sitting at now is chipboard rather than Chippendale, and it was correspondingly cheap.

The real problem, in my opinion, is not the varying prices that turners put on their work but the seeming inability of the buying public to recognise the difference between well designed, well executed work and the opposite. This is what I find most galling, and this is what I think really needs addressing.

I think the most pressing problem facing the turning community is how to educate an ‘unseeing’ public into recognising work of excellence. Once they learn to recognise it, I don’t actually think they mind paying for it.

Bob
 
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A few thoughts from my experiences:

"my area won't pay....." = there are people of all incomes in every county/state. I doubt a shop only sells to people living in that town. I've found that people who shop at Lord & Taylor could not care less what an item would cost at Wal-Mart. These people will go into a wine shop in that town where "people in my area...." live and buy a stopper for $25 because they never saw one like it in other places.

"when I open a bottle it's gone....." = most people who buy stoppers buy them as gifts for relatives/friends who like wine.

"your time is worth....." = that's a personal thing, get 3 people together and you'll have 2 opinions on what their time is worth. This very much depends on their life style (living expenses, location, etc.).

"price according to other ....." = this would only apply if the other turner/artist is using the same wood, turning same design, using same bottle stopper. If I turn a pink ivory stopper (2"x1"x1" scrap piece) on the stainless steel base (solid steel, FDA grade, forever item), the artisan gallery sells it for $50 (they take 35%), I'm thrilled.

"hobby turner prices hurt professional...." = someone here responded best saying people will pay what they want to (paraphrased). If a professional's business is hurt by a hobbyist, either the professional needs to make his work more uniquely his, his clientel are not selective or his prices may need adjusting.

With the billions of people stranded on this planet spending money buying gifts, I really think one person happily selling bottle stoppers for $5 is great. I rarely discuss price with a gallery or artisan shop because they know how much they can sell my work for to keep it interesting, competitive and moving and I get a check every month from each of them. They are not going to price their merchandise to compete with Wal-Mart because they want to maintain their image of offering unique items plus keep their customers to the ones who appreciate this. If the people in your area won't pay artisan shop prices, find a shop in an area that will. You'll never move the mountain.

stepping down off my soapbox

Ruth Niles

P.S. I've been supporting myself for 10 yrs. with lathework.
 
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Well, I feel a need to apologize to folks here on the AAW forum. It seems I've significantly misjudged a certain portion of fellow woodturners and stepped on some toes, and that was certainly not my intention at all. To them, I do sincerely apologize.

I'm a hobby turner. Nothing more. Nothing less. Somebody liked my work enough to pay a little bit of pocket change, and his customers like it enough to pay a little more pocket change and take it home or give it to friends as gifts. It was a fun moment for me, and I wanted to share it here in this cyber-community we all frequent.

Since then I've been called disloyal to fellow woodworkers, compared to the Chinese and Wal-Mart, a stupid businessman, and other such comments.

At least there was one individual who gave me the doubt's benefit and offered to buy a beer if we ever meet. I will gladly accept his offer and reciprocate.

Folks, I really am a nice guy. Much of that might be lost in cyber-communications, but you'll find that I'm really not that bad, nor am I out to undercut anybody's liveliehood. Personally, I hope everybody finds enjoyment in our chosen hobby, whether that includes making gifts for friends and family, picking up pocket change, or earning a living spinning wood.

I wish you all well. I'll be at the Ohio Valley symposium in October. Maybe then we can meet in person, trade some libations, and you'll find out I'm really not a bad guy at all.
 
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Charlie Harley said:
Well, I feel a need to apologize to folks here on the AAW forum. It seems I've significantly misjudged a certain portion of fellow woodturners and stepped on some toes, and that was certainly not my intention at all. To them, I do sincerely apologize.

Since then I've been called disloyal to fellow woodworkers, compared to the Chinese and Wal-Mart, a stupid businessman, and other such comments.

Folks, I really am a nice guy. Much of that might be lost in cyber-communications, but you'll find that I'm really not that bad, nor am I out to undercut anybody's liveliehood. Personally, I hope everybody finds enjoyment in our chosen hobby, whether that includes making gifts for friends and family, picking up pocket change, or earning a living spinning wood.

I wish you all well. I'll be at the Ohio Valley symposium in October. Maybe then we can meet in person, trade some libations, and you'll find out I'm really not a bad guy at all.

Charlie,
You certainly don't need to apologize to me!
IF you were offended in any way, by anything I said, I apologize. It is obvious that your feelings are hurt.
I will speak for myself and say that anything/EVERYTHING that I said was intended to give you insight and/or a different point of view, not to insult you. I even mentioned that I understood your pleasure in this (though I also said I didn't agree with it).
If I didn't think that you were a nice guy, I wouldn't have bothered to make suggestions or give a different point of view (and I think that is generally true of the rest of us).
Specifically, the "Wal-Mart" comment was intended to show what can happen to you, the supplier, NOT to compare YOU to that hideous company (no offense to any employees, at some point, a job is a job).
I also suggested that you make a better product and charge "market prices" rather than just be the least expensive.
I don't drink, and I won't be at that particular symposium, but I do hope we meet, and again, I am SURE that you are a nice guy, and I would gladly talk with you about anything of interest to us both.

And, if you would, how could we have better explained our points of view so that you might see the other sides of this and not be hurt by it?
 
R

Ron Sardo

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Charlie Harley said:
Folks, I really am a nice guy. Much of that might be lost in cyber-communications, but you'll find that I'm really not that bad, nor am I out to undercut anybody's liveliehood. Personally, I hope everybody finds enjoyment in our chosen hobby, whether that includes making gifts for friends and family, picking up pocket change, or earning a living spinning wood..


I never doubted that you where a nice guy. I'd gladly share a bottle of wine with you.

People get passionate when they see the value of their work undercut by someone who just didn't realize there are people who depend on what others call pocket change.

BTW, we'll finish the bottle so we don't have to worry about any stoppers.
 
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Charlie

I never questioned whether you're a nice guy. Nor did I feel threatened or upset that you're undercutting myself or others. I do feel that you're undercutting yourself, of course in the end, that's your business. But keep in mind, that goes hand in hand with the other guy (winery owner who knows what the price should be) taking advantage of you.

If you plan on Richmond in '08 perhaps we'll have a libation or two...on me..............aftrerall I'm making the big bucks on stoppers!! :D

Mike
 
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Charlie - I for one owe you a big thanks. I came within a whisker of posting a pricing related topic the other day. Fortunately I read your thread first and as a result, I decided not to post.

Thanks for taking a bullet for the rest of us.

Ed
 
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Lessee... I pay for two of us blokes to travel all the way to the UK, and you pick up a few pints and shepherd's pies? Tell ya what. Throw in a meal of fish and chips for the next evening and it's a deal! ;)

Folks, my feelings aren't hurt a bit. I just had the impression that I'd stepped on other toes and wanted everybody to know that was not my intention in any way. Trust me, if my intent was to hurt someone's lower appendages, they would know it. :eek:

Y'all have a good one.
 
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