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I think I got a good deal

The Crown tools are okay, not as good as Thompson. That gives you an idea on the mark up they charge. After teaching for a year at our Woodcraft, I asked for employee discount plus the small payment I was getting. Quickly found out what bargains I could get in the middle of the store.
 
I’ve been using my Crown PP Ellsworth gouges for years. They hold an edge beautifully and have years of life to spare. Don’t get me wrong, I really like Thompson Tools and own a few. But I do consider the crown to be their equal
 
I'm sure the Crown PP Ellsworth gouge is good but why would you want to spend a $100 more for a 1/2" bowl gouge (on Amz for $174.94 where Thompson Website 1/2" bowl gouge $75). Now I don't know what powdered metal technology the Ellsworth is as there is more than a few of the types of powdered metal. But I do know that the Thompsons are 10V steel. This is by no means a dis on Crown just economics. Also I have never owned or used a Crown PM gouge.
 
Bill, the Ellsworth garage was one of the first things I purchased when I started turning. I took some classes from David in Quakertown and used his gouge and so not knowing much about tool availability and never having heard of Thompson. I bought a couple of the crown pro PMs

So for me, it wasn’t a matter of economics but of availability based on my knowledge.

Mr. Thompson’s Tools are definitely excellent and I own several of them and now I’m able to put a Ellsworth grind on a gouge I am unlikely to buy another Crown .

As you said, the economics don’t make sense. But the crown gouge for $64 is a different story. When I was responding to was the statement that crown tools are just OK. As compared with Thompson tools I find them to be excellent.
 
Rusty Nesmith said:
I went up to Woodcraft today to teach a class. The manager came over with a brand new Crown 3/4” bowl gouge. He asked me if I was interested. I asked him how much. He said $75. I said I would take it. When he rang it up he gave me an additional discount. I got it for $64.
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Rusty, which model line Crown tool is this?

I'm wondering since various Crown tools are getting mentioned here...

Edit- I did not see any Crown-brand 3/4" bowl gouges, of any model line, at the Woodcraft website. Crown's own website does show 3/4" bowl gouges in the brown handle M2 steel, and black handle Pro-PM. Did they sell you a tool they no longer stock?

Search results for: '3/4" bowl gouge'

Crown Tools | CrownToolsusa.com
www.crowntoolsusa.com www.crowntoolsusa.com

If it was a Pro-PM tool that Rusty got (a great deal for the price), Crown's S390 powder metallurgy steel is not to be poo-poo'ed. It ranks right up there in the mettallugical realm with the rest of the high performing steels such as 10V and M42, the differences, for home shop woodturning purposes, is nitpicking. And for the materials we're cutting (wood by hand, vs. steels and other materials cut by industry), removing manufaturer's marks (such as handles, labels, etc.) and performing blind testing at the lathe for a few project (mulitple grinding sessions, rough turning, finishing cuts) with each tool, I'm not sure how accurately any of of us could rank the samples between them, most of us might come away surprised by the results.

Now, I'm sure Louisville Slugger is pretty particlar about the steel alloys their cutters are made from, but they probably turn, what, 50 bats in the time the best of us can rough turn a bowl? (I don't know the number, but it will be a lot of ash and maple shavings made by them.) Wait- they make a lot! From their website:
"How many Louisville Slugger bats are made each year?
Approximately 1.8 million — of all sizes. About 3,000 full sized bats are made per day at the factory in Louisville. During our peak production time (around Spring Training), the factory makes about 5,000 bats per day."
 
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@Bill Blasic i have several Crown gouges, and have never paid close to that price. I think there are some stinker markups on Amazon. Keep in mind Crown also sizes their bg British, so a 1/2” Crown is the same as 5/8” Thompson.

@Richard Coers In my experience Crown’s M42 cryo line holds its edge as good if not better than Thompson’s gouges. YMMV. And, Crown’s flutes are super long, so you get a lot of life with one gouge. Of course, long flutes might not be ideal for a bigger BG where you need more heft. Thompson’s tools are less expensive though, and I know his customer service is too notch.

My two cents.
 
Well, I stopped using swept back gouges years ago once I learned the 40/40 grind. While, as Trent Bosch said, "The swept back gouge is the jack of all trades", and while that is true, to me as a production turner, the specialized tools work better. It may be the jack of all trades, but it is master of none....

As for edge retention, it takes me back to the old Miller Beer commercials, "Less Filling!" "Tastes Great!". I can't really tell any difference in edge durability. I still prefer a fresh gouge, most of the time, for finish cuts. Since I do all of my heavy roughing with scrapers, my gouges will keep the edge for a finish cut longer, which is 2 or 3 bowls. I get wall thickness to where I want it and then make one or two passes for finish cuts, no more. I don't have any Crown tools, at least not yet. I have pretty much all Thompson and D Way.

robo hippy
 
On the Thompson site, what’s the difference between the U and V shaped bowl gouges? Pictures are all the same—even of the bottom bowl gouge—and there’s no description. These are distinct from spindle gouges. And how are the Clewes and Grumbine gouges different? Wish there were more verbiage explaining.
 
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Rusty Nesmith said:
I was told it had been in a guy’s collection but never been used, so it isn’t new but same as.View attachment 79960View attachment 79961View attachment 79962
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I hate to be the one to suggest it, but that flute doesn’t look like “it’s never been used”

Below is a pic of 3 Crown gouges I have. Mine aren’t 3/4”, two 5/8” and one 1/2”. The one with 4” flute (top of round ground flat to fit my Wolverine) I bought 10-15yrs ago and have used and sharpened LOTS on a friable wheel before I finally got CBNs a few years ago. I believe this is M2 steel, still it’s my favorite! The other 5/8” and 1/2” (M42 and ProPM) are about a year or two old and have only seen CBN so they haven’t lost too much length yet. Your gouge looks prettier than my old one, but also pretty similar (albeit 3/4”, but it seems like a pretty short Crown flute to me…

With all of that said, I’d be happy to take it off of your hands for $65 😊
 

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Michael Anderson said:
@Bill Blasic i have several Crown gouges, and have never paid close to that price. I think there are some stinker markups on Amazon. Keep in mind Crown also sizes their bg British, so a 1/2” Crown is the same as 5/8” Thompson.
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Michael, I'm talking about the Crown Pro-PM gouge and even in the 2022 Woodturners Catalog from Craft Supplies it is $177.95 (Ellsworth) and yes you're right it is 5/8" so the difference is $77.95 at least. As stated I was not dissing the Crown tools as I have owned more than a couple. Just pointing out the difference between the Ellsworth and Thompson. And even the non Ellsworth PMs cost $25 or $30 more. Just for chuckles how many of you have stated in the past BUY AMERICAN! ☺️
Alan Weinberg said:
Alan the difference between the gouges is just their shape, one is half round (straight sided) and the other is a V (slanted sides). The Grumbine 5/8" V was about 4" longer than the standard Thompson gouge but had the same length flute. The difference between a Clewes 1/2" V and a standard Thompson 1/2 gouge is that Jimmy's flute was a little deeper. Hope this helps for your questions.
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Bill Blasic said:
Just for chuckles how many of you have stated in the past BUY AMERICAN! ☺️
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Me, for one, any number of times. Both of my grinders are US-made. Lathes- Australia and Canada.

As a 30-year casual turner, tools last me... forever. I stocked up on Crown Pro-PM 20+ years ago, I don't recall Thompson, Carter, and D-Way selling turning tools back then, were they? I don't think there were any US-made turning tools in my early days other than Glaser. Even Mike Hunter was just developing his stuff and getting input from his clubmates here in Minneapolis/St. Paul. Sorby, Crown, Hamlet, Glaser, house-labeled Packard (one of the above makers?), those were the players I'm remembering from back then, for whatever my lousy memory is worth anymore. I've added some Carter tools in the past couple years.

It's the same with the US-made lathes. Who is still around. Let's see, Robust, and... Robust. Yep, that's about it, with Canadian Oneway suffering the tariff war right now. Gone from the USA/N. America- Delta, Powermatic, General, Conover (boutique brand). Where did Stubby come from? Found it, Australia. Woodfast (Australia), gone (re-labeled Chinese doesn't count). I guess we use what we can get.
 
Bill Blasic said:
Michael, I'm talking about the Crown Pro-PM gouge and even in the 2022 Woodturners Catalog from Craft Supplies it is $177.95 (Ellsworth) and yes you're right it is 5/8" so the difference is $77.95 at least. As stated I was not dissing the Crown tools as I have owned more than a couple. Just pointing out the difference between the Ellsworth and Thompson. And even the non Ellsworth PMs cost $25 or $30 more.
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Ah, right. Somehow overlooked that specific. Thanks for clarifying.
 
Steve, Just for chuckles how many of you have stated in the past BUY AMERICAN! ☺️ was just tongue in cheek. I got my first Thompson tool in 2005 if memory serves me and I made a trade with Alby Hall and sent him a piece of wood from the USA and I stuck a Thompson 5/8V in the box. Little did I know back then not to send wood with bark, I think Alby had to wait 30 or 60 days to get that wood and tool. So one of Doug's tools was in New Zealand about 20 years ago. As far as lathes go I have only owned 1 made in the USA but I don't remember the name of it but the head of the lathe was like my Nova DVR. The head was this gigantic motor and the lathe weighed over 800 lbs. I never tried getting it running and finally it took to much room and I gave it away. Could have been an Oliver?
 
I had contemplated a Conover lathe, heavy castings and Timken roller bearings, mmm! But it was my concern over creating a timber bed that I'd be able to make straight and true, and that would remain so, that made me pass on it. LVL structural lumber, or a glue-up of Baltic Birch plywood, would probably be ideal.
 
Michael Anderson said:
@Bill Blasic i have several Crown gouges, and have never paid close to that price. I think there are some stinker markups on Amazon. Keep in mind Crown also sizes their bg British, so a 1/2” Crown is the same as 5/8” Thompson.

@Richard Coers In my experience Crown’s M42 cryo line holds its edge as good if not better than Thompson’s gouges. YMMV. And, Crown’s flutes are super long, so you get a lot of life with one gouge. Of course, long flutes might not be ideal for a bigger BG where you need more heft. Thompson’s tools are less expensive though, and I know his customer service is too notch.

My two cents.
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The M42 Crowns are hard to beat. They are my go-to gouge right now. I have 5/8" and 3/8" Crown gouges (US measurements).
 
Bill Blasic said:
Little did I know back then not to send wood with bark, I think Alby had to wait 30 or 60 days to get that wood and tool.
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I learned that from a very kind gentleman who sent and brought wood to me from Australia - he was always careful, not only to remove bark, but leave no defects in the wood that customs might suspect could hide some kind of critter or fungus. I'm careful of that when bringing even small pieces of wood into the country.

For those who might have the opportunity to pack a nice piece of wood in their luggage, it appears that since the officials don't have a problem bringing in things MADE from wood, the easiest thing is is to get someone to make something from it. Even cylinders turned from green wood appear to be OK, as long as the bark and such is turned away. Reduces weight too.

This friend of a friend in Italy cut away the bark and other "defects" and planed/jointed a piece of olive slab to make a cutting board which traveled home in my suitcase. He even rounded the edges and put some oil on it. I ripped it into turning squares when I got home. (I thought it odd that although olive is abundant his customers almost exclusively wanted pine for furniture for home and office. He showed me stacks of wonderful photos from decades of jobs/installations.)

olive_Italy_2016_IMG_4953.jpg
 
John K Jordan said:
I learned that from a very kind gentleman who sent and brought wood to me from Australia - he was always careful, not only to remove bark, but leave no defects in the wood that customs might suspect could hide some kind of critter or fungus. I'm careful of that when bringing even small pieces of wood into the country.

For those who might have the opportunity to pack a nice piece of wood in their luggage, it appears that since the officials don't have a problem bringing in things MADE from wood, the easiest thing is is to get someone to make something from it. Even cylinders turned from green wood appear to be OK, as long as the bark and such is turned away. Reduces weight too.

This friend of a friend in Italy cut away the bark and other "defects" and planed/jointed a piece of olive slab to make a cutting board which traveled home in my suitcase. He even rounded the edges and put some oil on it. I ripped it into turning squares when I got home. (I thought it odd that although olive is abundant his customers almost exclusively wanted pine for furniture for home and office. He showed me stacks of wonderful photos from decades of jobs/installations.)

View attachment 80000
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I'll happily trade your friend some southern pine for olive! :D
 
Mark Hepburn said:
I'll happily trade your friend some southern pine for olive! :D
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I'll ask, if run into him someday. I don't even know the guy's name - well, I might have it written on a piece of the olivewood.
But I'm not sure they'd be interested in the typical southern pine. Compared to most of what we have around here, the wood he showed me was white, fine grained, and didn't have prominent early/late ring structure.

This reminds me what a wood dealer from Peru told me about pine. We were talking about purpleheart and how they laugh when we buy it (he said they use it for floor joists and such). He said in his area one of the most highly-valued woods for wealthy people was knotty pine imported from the US.

Did you ever price good olivewood from dealers in the US? I'm thinking of Mediterranean olive (Olea europaea), not the "somewhat" look-a-likes from a different genus.
I would not trust some I've seen offered online - I want to see and smell it, feel the weight.

In 2009, a 4x4x12" African olive that IS related (Olea capensis) was $110.
Later, I bought a 8x8x4" blank of Med. olive from a trusted dealer for about $200.

And knowing the size of the olive trees I saw in Europe, I was amazed at the slab a friend offered me, about 18x36x1/5".
This was from a piece, just the bottom turned, testing what it would look like with finish. Love the stuff!
(Rats, I just realized I never got a pic of the finished piece before I gave it to someone.)
olive_test.jpg

JKJ
 
John K Jordan said:
I'll ask, if run into him someday. I don't even know the guy's name - well, I might have it written on a piece of the olivewood.
But I'm not sure they'd be interested in the typical southern pine. Compared to most of what we have around here, the wood he showed me was white, fine grained, and didn't have prominent early/late ring structure.

This reminds me what a wood dealer from Peru told me about pine. We were talking about purpleheart and how they laugh when we buy it (he said they use it for floor joists and such). He said in his area one of the most highly-valued woods for wealthy people was knotty pine imported from the US.

Did you ever price good olivewood from dealers in the US? I'm thinking of Mediterranean olive (Olea europaea), not the "somewhat" look-a-likes from a different genus.
I would not trust some I've seen offered online - I want to see and smell it, feel the weight.

In 2009, a 4x4x12" African olive that IS related (Olea capensis) was $110.
Later, I bought a 8x8x4" blank of Med. olive from a trusted dealer for about $200.

And knowing the size of the olive trees I saw in Europe, I was amazed at the slab a friend offered me, about 18x36x1/5".
This was from a piece, just the bottom turned, testing what it would look like with finish. Love the stuff!
(Rats, I just realized I never got a pic of the finished piece before I gave it to someone.)
View attachment 80018

JKJ
Click to expand...
That's some beautiful wood. I've bought a couple of olive cutting boards and cut them down to pen blanks but that's about the entirety of my experience with it. I'd love to stumble across a nice bowl blank but sure it's very spendy.
 
Funny how this thread turned from Rusty's gouge into this whole other discussion. Back to the original topic:

Rusty, I have Crown and Thompson tools and think you'll be very happy with that gouge.
 
Mark Hepburn said:
That's some beautiful wood. I've bought a couple of olive cutting boards and cut them down to pen blanks but that's about the entirety of my experience with it. I'd love to stumble across a nice bowl blank but sure it's very spendy.
Click to expand...
I have 4 olive trees in my front driveway. I can send you some if you cover shipping.
 
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