Is using a laser or CNC for basket illusions cheating?

[David Stranz]

Would it be cheating to use a laser engraver or a small burr in a CNC to cut the squares in a basket illusion? Note that because of the tight focus of most laser engravers, this would require the equivalent of a CNC, with the ability to move the laser vertically to match the curve of the bowl, but some CNC machines have laser head accessories.

I ask out of a desire to avoid injury from the repetitive movement required to carve the illusion. I've carved a few embellishments for bowls using my Automach power carver, and after a while I find my arm and hand all tingly and a bit numb from the vibrations. I have palm gouges to carve manually, but those have similar issues with repetitive motion and cramping.

 

[Paul Paukstelis]

Would it be cheating to use a laser engraver or a small burr in a CNC to cut the squares in a basket illusion? Note that because of the tight focus of most laser engravers, this would require the equivalent of a CNC, with the ability to move the laser vertically to match the curve of the bowl, but some CNC machines have laser head accessories.

I ask out of a desire to avoid injury from the repetitive movement required to carve the illusion. I've carved a few embellishments for bowls using my Automach power carver, and after a while I find my arm and hand all tingly and a bit numb from the vibrations. I have palm gouges to carve manually, but those have similar issues with repetitive motion and cramping.

I think everyone will have their own ideas about how far they want to automate processes. Of course, at some point someone thought it was "cheating" to have an electric motor connected to a lathe.

That being said. I have already built the tool you envision. It does basket illusion lines and a whole lot more.

https://imgur.com/a/gZgai9n

 

[David Stranz]

Whoa! So let me guess: you use a probe to establish the surface curvature and then control the laser head movement to maintain a constant distance from the surface based on that? It looks like you have created the concentric lines mechanically using a beading too or something similar. Do you also have the rotation of the chuck under stepper control? Nice.

I have enough electromechanical junk that I could build something like that. I'll have to add it to my list of things I'll buy the components for but will never have time to build.

 

[Dave Landers]

Would it be cheating to use a laser engraver or a small burr in a CNC to cut the squares in a basket illusion? Note that because of the tight focus of most laser engravers, this would require the equivalent of a CNC, with the ability to move the laser vertically to match the curve of the bowl, but some CNC machines have laser head accessories.

I ask out of a desire to avoid injury from the repetitive movement required to carve the illusion. I've carved a few embellishments for bowls using my Automach power carver, and after a while I find my arm and hand all tingly and a bit numb from the vibrations. I have palm gouges to carve manually, but those have similar issues with repetitive motion and cramping.

It's cheating if you lie about your process when asked.
And it's cheating if the process does not satisfy your soul.
Otherwise IMHO everything's fair game.

Artistic vision, the ability to execute on that vision, and achieving your vision in the end is what's important. And if executing your vision requires using techniques to overcome physical (or other) limitations then more power to you.

 

[Paul Paukstelis]

Whoa! So let me guess: you use a probe to establish the surface curvature and then control the laser head movement to maintain a constant distance from the surface based on that?

Yes, exactly. The tool (router/laser) can rotate to follow the surface.

It looks like you have created the concentric lines mechanically using a beading too or something similar.

Yes, those were done with a beading tool (though that piece was not turned/beaded by me, but by Steve, Thirdbay Woodworking)

Do you also have the rotation of the chuck under stepper control? Nice.

Correct. You can use the lathe directly, or a dedicated spindle. The software let's you choose start/stop points and how many divisions you want to put in, so the indexing is perfect.

I have enough electromechanical junk that I could build something like that. I'll have to add it to my list of things I'll buy the components for but will never have time to build.

It is an OpenSource project. Most of the effort has gone into software and that is entirely free. You just have to accept my axes definitions with whatever machine you hook it up to. Those are non-standard for a CNC-lathe (there are good reasons for this).

 

[David Stranz]

It's cheating if you lie about your process when asked.
And it's cheating if the process does not satisfy your soul.
Otherwise IMHO everything's fair game.

Artistic vision, the ability to execute on that vision, and achieving your vision in the end is what's important. And if executing your vision requires using techniques to overcome physical (or other) limitations then more power to you.

That's sort of my feeling, too. I used to not appreciate embellishment, thinking that the wood and the form had to speak for itself. But as I see more and more of it being used to create stunning pieces out of blander, less interesting wood I have come around.

The reason I asked the question in the first place is to get some feedback on where does the line lie between artistic vision and execution and machining? In Paul's case, he could also have mounted a tool on place of his laser head and turned the profile of the bowl under computer control, but I am sure he didn't. But if he had, which side of the line would that be on? It would have taken some artistic vision to draw the CAD profile that the CNC then turned, but then absent some physical inability to manually turn that profile, would having a machine do it be a step too far? Instead of drawing the profile in CAD, would having an AI draw it be too much?

We're living in times when much of what we used to do by hand is capable of being done entirely under computer control. Fortunately for me, I still prefer the feel of tool against wood.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

It could be argued that most basket illusions are not accurate. In "real" baskets the knots are near equal in size. That would be fairly easy to do with automation, CNC. Another issue is woven baskets are seldom as consistent in weave as the illusions, there's a randomness due to variations in the material being used.

The ones I see are just designs or embellishments to a turning IMO. Some I like because they're well designed and colorful others are just poor imitations of baskets.

Either way, do whatever pleases you.

 

[David Stranz]

I see this from your web site. It's more than I had realized; you have basically a 4-axis CNC with interchangeable toolheads. Impressive.

 

[David Stranz]

Another issue is woven baskets are seldom as consistent in weave as the illusions, there's a randomness due to variations in the material being used.

True. With Paul's device, under software control you could program in that randomness. I need to stop thinking about this or else my head will explode.

 

[Dave Landers]

In Paul's case, he could also have mounted a tool on place of his laser head and turned the profile of the bowl under computer control, but I am sure he didn't. But if he had, which side of the line would that be on? It would have taken some artistic vision to draw the CAD profile that the CNC then turned, but then absent some physical inability to manually turn that profile, would having a machine do it be a step too far?

We're living in times when much of what we used to do by hand is capable of being done entirely under computer control

Someone has to take the artistic vision and encode that so the computer can do the work. I think there's still art at work there, and skill. And the machined cut requires skill to operate - knowing how the cutter will behave and what is/isn't possible, what will/won't produce decent results. There's still skill at work there.

For sure, it's a different way to implement your artistic vision vs "traditional woodturning" (that is, with a pole lathe and stone tools). And some will not consider it art if there's a computer involved (don't tell them about your lathe's VFD). But whatever - do what satisfies your soul.

 

[Sam Fleisher]

Would it be cheating to use a laser engraver or a small burr in a CNC to cut the squares in a basket illusion? Note that because of the tight focus of most laser engravers, this would require the equivalent of a CNC, with the ability to move the laser vertically to match the curve of the bowl, but some CNC machines have laser head accessories.

I ask out of a desire to avoid injury from the repetitive movement required to carve the illusion. I've carved a few embellishments for bowls using my Automach power carver, and after a while I find my arm and hand all tingly and a bit numb from the vibrations. I have palm gouges to carve manually, but those have similar issues with repetitive motion and cramping.

Have you ever tried putting your pyrography pen into a sled and using it in conjunction with a platform and indexing wheel? It's repetitive and tedious but I don't get any vibration or numbness when I do it that way. Just boredom.

 

[David Stranz]

Have you ever tried putting your pyrography pen into a sled and using it in conjunction with a platform and indexing wheel? It's repetitive and tedious but I don't get any vibration or numbness when I do it that way. Just boredom.

I haven't actually done anything more than power carving with the Automach while holding the bowl in my lap. Your method sounds good (and boring , but then so are most repetitive things when repeated an infinite number of times).

 

[Curt Fuller]

It's cheating if you lie about your process when asked.
And it's cheating if the process does not satisfy your soul.
Otherwise IMHO everything's fair game.

Artistic vision, the ability to execute on that vision, and achieving your vision in the end is what's important. And if executing your vision requires using techniques to overcome physical (or other) limitations then more power to you.

Well said!

Every culture on the planet that has had access to fibrous materials has made baskets. And basket is a broad term for a lot of different kinds of containers. I was first introduced to basket illusion woodturnings by the late Jim Adkins. His illusions IMHO ar still the most realistic of any I've seen. They were turned on a lathe, hand drawn designs, hand colored, and hand burned. Tim Connell is a close second, again all done by hand. But that's just one type of illusion that I happen to be fond of. And for me personally the intimate relationship from holding a chunk of wood in my lap for 40+ hours is the part I enjoy. But as they say, there's more than one way to skin a cat, which is a saying I have no idea of where it came from. Make them any way you like, just remember to enjoy the process.

 

[Steve Bonny]

CNC is just a tool. It doesn’t create art. It just does what you program it to. I don’t see that as cheating, just smart…. And a fun part of the hobby. I’ve seen Paul’s setup in action, it’s pretty cool. Now where is my handaxe…

 

[Donna Banfield]

For what it's worth, I sell my work at shows, where I am the person in the booth. To the average consumer/viewer, the first question most of them ask, is if all my work is done with a laser or CNC machine. I neither make basket of illusion work, nor use a laser or CNC. But I've often wondered why they assume that.

I am in the 'it's just another tool' camp. As it has already been pointed out, it takes skill and vision to come up with the idea, learn how to use the tool, and program the tool to bring your idea to life. But if you do use those tools, be honest with the public on how your work was created. If you are tempted to conceal or deceive the public on how it was made, ask yourself why?

 

[John K Jordan]

It's cheating if you lie about your process when asked.
And it's cheating if the process does not satisfy your soul.
Otherwise IMHO everything's fair game.

I really like what you said about satisfying your soul. Unless you do all this to make money I think that's most important. That and to witness the thrill of someone I give a piece to - I may not be entirely satisfied with that piece but if they are, all is well!

However, I've never understood the whole woodturned basket illusion thing. I assume they are quite popular with buyers and bring good prices. I have all the tools and understand how to make them but so far the inspiration is missing.

We do have a collection of real baskets, some made locally, elsewhere in the US, and from around the world. Some are baskets I've woven myself from round reed, some made by friends, special little nearly-closed baskets loosely woven from honeysuckle vines and stuffed with llama/alpaca fiber for birds to pull fibers for their nests (extremely popular with bird lovers!), woven cloth baskets (bags) with straps, some of the wonderful sweetgrass baskets from Charleston, SC, one bowl-shaped basket woven from green palm leaves in Hawaii while we watched, a basket from some kind of smooth, thick vine over 3/8" in diameter... Some are square, rectangle, bowl shaped, oval with woven handles - all are beautiful!

But I've not yet seen any woven baskets that looked remotely like those with woodturning basket illusion label, done on bowls, vases, hollow forms, etc - very small flat or beaded squares at the base and at the top, wider rectangles in the middle, formed by verticallines around the diameter, many with each square/rectangle colored to form intricate designs and repeating patterns.

They are certainly fascinating to look at and greatly appreciate the artistic vision and careful planning, challenging work that goes into them - it's stunning to hold and look at a well executed piece. But maybe I just don't understand the basket illusion name. Maybe someone can explain.

 

[John Torchick]

Powered lathe or treadle lathe?

 

[Rob Gabel]

In addition to turning I also have a CNC router setup. I do numerous "carvings" on this for selling at various shows. Some of these are 1-2 hours on the CNC, others are 6-8 hours. I usually price the pieces around $10/hr of machining time with adders if the wood is "special" (I usually use cherry) or the amount of post processing time is longer. I have been asked several times if these are hand carved and I am always up front with the customers. Some turn away, others don't care. They appreciate the piece itself and only care that it was not mass produced in a factory.

 

[David Stranz]

In addition to turning I also have a CNC router setup. I do numerous "carvings" on this for selling at various shows. Some of these are 1-2 hours on the CNC, others are 6-8 hours. I usually price the pieces around $10/hr of machining time with adders if the wood is "special" (I usually use cherry) or the amount of post processing time is longer. I have been asked several times if these are hand carved and I am always up front with the customers. Some turn away, others don't care. They appreciate the piece itself and only care that it was not mass produced in a factory.

I've seen numerous vendors selling laser engraved and/or CNC carved items like cutting boards and coasters at street fairs. Some of them are quite attractive. Some of the questions I ask are "Is the artwork an original by you?" and "Did you make the cutting board?" I tend to be less impressed if the answers are "No", because it is hard to call something hand-crafted if all the vendor has done is to download an image and let a programmed machine do the work on a cutting board they bought in bulk. If they made the cutting board and created the artwork, that earns them extra credit and admiration.

If you are honest and upfront with your potential customers about the origins of the work you are offering for sale, that's what really counts. As you say, some people turn away, others don't care and might buy the piece simply because they like it.

But with AI being able to generate machine-ready STL files (just look on Printables), how long will it be before an AI can produce a "hand-carved" CNC-routed piece that is indistinguishable from an actual hand-carved work?

 

[hughie]

"But with AI being able to generate machine-ready STL files (just look on Printables), how long will it be before an AI can produce a "hand-carved" CNC-routed piece that is indistinguishable from an actual hand-carved work?"


I would say thats already here https://carveco.com/

I suspect we all have some resistence to change and therefore risk the label of "Luddite". But good or bad progess occurs and we all have a choice of being early adopters or not. I am glad we have chucks, thanks Teknatool, HSS tooling and now Carbide. But we dont rush into change, I was using Carbide in the 1960's and made carbide turning tools for my Dad at that time.
Me, I like my technology, I never want to go back to screwing blanks to a face plate and the plugging screw holes or using High Carbon tools, glass paper for sanding and so on. But I wonder, when will we see voice controlled AI CNC lathes? Load the hopper full of blanks and speak. Hey AI make me a 8x6 open bowl, satin finish,with Paua inserts to the rim, four feet and medium thickness, and finish to be museum 000.

 

[hockenbery]

What ever works for you. Cheating implies deception. I think @Dave Landers covered that.

After a club hollow form demo I did 20 years ago using the Jamison system a friend came up after the demo and sort of teasingly said some thing like “good demo but I like to feel the wood when I hand hollow”.
I bantered back the Jamison system lets you feel the wood but you need a light touch. And if you really are into feeling the wood next time we go wood collecting I’ll loan you a bow saw.