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Laguna Delta S1 VFD, possibly others

Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
192
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49
Location
Austin, TX
I learned something interesting about my lathe the other day.
So I was using my lathe and under a moderate amount of load, it stopped turning. Altogether. The rpm display was showing but the lathe would not turn.
I decided to file a ticket with Laguna.
The next day I thought, oh, duh, maybe I should try unplugging it and replugging it. This seemed to do the trick. Still I had the ticket out and they called me. I explained my situation and the tech said I should look at the code on my VFD. I had and it said, ( I believe ) OC. He asked if I turn my lathe off using the switch or if I unplug it. I said ... uh, I use the switch? He said that when you use the switch the VFD is still connected and drawing power. That if you leave it plugged in for a long time, that it sometimes gets into a messed up state. I told him this seemed like a design problem, and as I write this I am now sure it's a design problem and think it's ridiculous. He was unimpressed with my assessment, and regardless, at least in my case, it is what it is.
While trouble shooting the issue I read some posts. Some people turn the lathe on at the beginning and then use the speed control to start and stop until they are done then they turn it off. I read one post where a fellow did that but then also unplugged the lathe after every session and "it worked great". I thought now come on, this is ridiculous. I didn't build this machine. Professionals did! I should not have to use all these hacks.
Well, turns out he wasn't crazy. Laguna is.
I still love my lathe, and I'm putting in a 220 double pole light switch to deal with the situation but I do think it is pretty messed up.
It also occurred to me, especially since the tech seemed to think this was the most normal thing in the world, that perhaps other lathe brands which use the Delta S1 VFD, of which there are several, may have the same situation. Further it may not be contingent on the VFD, perhaps any lathe that has a VFD that remains on, should be unplugged after use. It's worth considering if you have one.
It always kind of bothered me that the bright digital rpm out put read 0 when not in use. That it didn't just shut down. At the very least it would be worth it to install a PROPER switch on your lathe just to keep the thing from consuming electricity for no reason.
Thanks,
Raif
 
Joined
Feb 8, 2021
Messages
230
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102
Location
Vancouver,WA
I've read this someplace else also and thank you for reminding me to look into this. I know some say unplugging, or switching all power to the lathe off, helps them protect against power surges, etc, too. I'd be curious how you did your switch. From my understanding the S1 VFD is common to a number of machines, including the Powermatics if I'm not mistaken.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
131
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77
Location
Martinsville, VA
This shouldn't be surprising. Seems like everything that is controlled on some level by computers and software occasionally gets confused. Phones, TVs, WiFi routers, etc. Most of us think nothing of rebooting electronic devices when they start acting up. I'm a bit surprised our cars don't act up more. The dash on my last motorcycle had a habit of going blank while riding. Fortunately the motor never stopped. Pull over and restart the bike and it would come back on. Without more data, I wouldn't expect that particular controller to be worse than any other electronic controller.

I'm waiting for my new Jet 1840 to be delivered and expect I will get the occasional glitch as well, going from two machines with the only electronics being an on/off switch for a single speed motor.
I've already pulled a new circuit for the new lathe and, as you mentioned, I put a double pole switch at the outlet.
 

Tom Gall

TOTW Team
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
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Location
Hillsborough, NJ
I've read this someplace else also and thank you for reminding me to look into this. I know some say unplugging, or switching all power to the lathe off, helps them protect against power surges, etc, too. I'd be curious how you did your switch. From my understanding the S1 VFD is common to a number of machines, including the Powermatics if I'm not mistaken.
Unplugging protects from power surges AND lightning strikes. Using a switch, as far as I know, in most cases (if not all) will not protect from a lightning strike. I assumed that all lathes have a main power switch on the inverter like my General 260. When I finish a turning session - turn off the main power switch - pull the plug from the wall. Simple insurance!
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
192
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Location
Austin, TX
So just to be sure, if lightning strikes, I guess my shop, which happens to be on my house, every electric device that is plugged in gets fried. Including my lathe.
If that's the case I may as well be a human lightning rod. The damage that would cause would dwarf the cost of my lathe.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2021
Messages
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Location
Roulette, PA
Website
www.reallyruralwoodworks.com
So just to be sure, if lightning strikes, I guess my shop, which happens to be on my house, every electric device that is plugged in gets fried. Including my lathe.
If that's the case I may as well be a human lightning rod. The damage that would cause would dwarf the cost of my lathe.
It is within possibility. Lightning strikes, and power surges can be really weird.. my place and 2 neighbors: long time back area got hit with massive power surge (something blew a main line up on a hill nearby) nothing in our house was affected, neighbor on the left side , his T.V. and Refrigerator were damaged had to replace both. neighbor to the right across the street (we're on a corner lot) lost TV, VCR, Stereo, numerous other small appliances, and shorted out battery on his lawn tractor (which had been on a battery charger at the time, charger also burned out transformer) back in 2014, lightning hit a telephone pole approximately 100 yards from my shop.. I had been on the computer at the time, even with it being on a battery backup/surge suppression, I got a hell of a zap up my arm via the mouse I was holding, computer's motherboard fried, and that was it - no one else was affected.... then June 30, 2019 I just happened to be standing in my shop working on a tractor, looked out a window towards the neighbor's yard, and literally watched a small maple tree on our property lines turn orange - the whole thing - as lightning hit it.. I felt the strike , best I can call it is crackling, under my boots and saw little arcs all around the shop - the maple tree was less than 30 feet from where I was standing. of course, my computer (yes, the new one that replaced the one that got hit by lightning in 2014) a brand new printer (which I'd just replaced) and three of my thumb drives that I used for backup - one hooked in computer, other 2 on the desk (which was MDF top, metal body) all blown out... Neighbor lost another refrigerator, TV cable box (but not his TV?!) and his cell phone (which was on charger right next to his laptop.. which was NOT affected!?)

Long story short - as you can see, lightning and power surges can have weird effects depending on , I don't know - luck of the draw???
 
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Messages
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Location
Haubstadt, Indiana
So just to be sure, if lightning strikes, I guess my shop, which happens to be on my house, every electric device that is plugged in gets fried. Including my lathe.
If that's the case I may as well be a human lightning rod. The damage that would cause would dwarf the cost of my lathe.


I always unplug at the end of the day. Had a bad electrical storm one night, next day a computer, modem, and the TV cable box were fried. Needless to say all my devices are now on surge protectors. The lathe was unplugged. There is also a Laguna electronic board. I suspect that your problem is coming from that. When I had the Laguna nI also had some weird things and they sent me a new board that fixed the problems.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2020
Messages
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49
Location
Austin, TX
OMG Brian! The world is all of a sudden a much scarier place! :) Jeez. I've never seen nor been near where lightnings has touched ground. Ultimately, my somewhat sauced statement last night was meant to convey, that if lightning did strike, there would be damage to so many high priority items ( fridge, computers ) that the lathe would only be addressed down the road. I can't possibly unplug everything. There are lots of things plugged in in the shop too, I suspect I would loose those as well. Luckily in central Austin, while we do get lightning storms, lightning strikes are pretty uncommon. Lastly, I would hope that home insurance would pay for some/all of the damaged electronics.
But who knows. Life is both random and highly susceptible to the reverberations of cause and effect. When I figure that out, I'll start unplugging my lathe. Just kidding. I could wire it up to have the plug in a convenient place but I could also wire a "switch" that was more like a circuit breaker or something. I don't know I'll look into it.
Thanks for the sharing your experiences and recommendations all.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
411
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249
Location
Millington, TN
Raif, Many power switches only disconnect the hot wire(s), but lightning can still hit your equipment via ground or neutral wires. Unplugging your lathe when done for the day is better insurance than just adding a switch to the hot side. In a real bad electrical storm I will also unplug my computers, TV’s and game systems because turning them off is not enough protection.
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
211
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289
Location
Springdale, Arkansas
When I worked for AT&T, I went to a school to learn how to protect solid state electronics from power surges. What I learned was that power surges, no matter how small, had a cumulative degrade effect on the components. So, your VFD might take 10 small power surges but the 11th one makes it toast.

Lots of ways to have a small power surges. Lightening strikes a primary power line or substation 10 miles away. Transmission line goes down, substation problem, somebody cuts a cable, or who knows what else. Some power surges wouldn't be noticed.

Cheap insurance on my lathe.
DSCF8939.JPG
 

Tom Gall

TOTW Team
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
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Location
Hillsborough, NJ
No main power on PMs. I do unplug after session. It is much safer than risking that valuable VFD especially with the shortage of computer chips.
On my General the main On/Off is mounted on the VFD box. Don't know if that shuts off power to the VFD or just to the lathe motor and controls. That's why I also pull the plug.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
411
Likes
249
Location
Millington, TN
When I worked for AT&T, I went to a school to learn how to protect solid state electronics from power surges. What I learned was that power surges, no matter how small, had a cumulative degrade effect on the components. So, your VFD might take 10 small power surges but the 11th one makes it toast.

Lots of ways to have a small power surges. Lightening strikes a primary power line or substation 10 miles away. Transmission line goes down, substation problem, somebody cuts a cable, or who knows what else. Some power surges wouldn't be noticed.

Cheap insurance on my lathe.
View attachment 38779
Does this device disconnect the neutral line too? Lightning can over power the ground circuit, but I would more worried about a surge coming on the neutral circuit if it remained connected.

To be honest I forget to unplug my lathe sometimes so I will probably be installing a whole home surge protector to by breaker panel like this one from Square-D that’s only $87:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-80-kA-Home-Electronics-Protective-Device-HEPD-HEPD80/203540660
 
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
326
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154
Location
Freelton, ON
Raif, if it makes you feel any better, the controller on my Oneway 2436, behaves the same way. In summer thunderstorm season, I unplug as others have said. These controllers are digital devices and in the case of Oneway, all switches are controlled with low voltage. Once I borrowed a current measuring device from our library to check household devices for low current draw. My satellite TV receiver was the same whether it was on or off.
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
211
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289
Location
Springdale, Arkansas
Does this device disconnect the neutral line too? Lightning can over power the ground circuit, but I would more worried about a surge coming on the neutral circuit if it remained connected.

To be honest I forget to unplug my lathe sometimes so I will probably be installing a whole home surge protector to by breaker panel like this one from Square-D that’s only $87:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-80-kA-Home-Electronics-Protective-Device-HEPD-HEPD80/203540660
My lathe is 240V so no neutral. The switch is two pole so If you had a 120V lathe you could open the neutral. Don't know if that is code legal.

I also have a whole house surge protector which my coop power company supplied. Don't know if it works but haven't had a problem in 15 years.
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2016
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1,105
Location
Nebraska
Many utility companies are providing lightning and surge arrestors for your electrical service at the utility meter. That is your first line of defense for an electrical service.
The next location is your electrical breaker panel, you can install a TVSS Transient Voltage Surge Suppressor to limit any surges or spikes that make it to your panel. They
also make end of line TVSS modules that mount into a 1/2" knockout on a device box or junction box or disconnect switch that you power your individual equipment with.
A multi-level voltage suppression design is your best approach for protecting sensitive electronic equipment. We had a vendor who set up vending machines for maintenance
and safety supplies in various locations across our Bio-Refinery facility and we ended up having to install TVSS modules at each receptacle that provided power for these
machines so they could avoid small voltage surges and spikes.

To protect VFD driven equipment in an industrial setting, they usually install a Drive Isolation Transformer, this design provides an isolation of the sensitive equipment with a
separate set of windings in the transformer. The secondary winding isolates the VFD equipment and motor from the primary voltage winding and also prevents harmonic
distortion from the VFD from migrating back onto the electrical system. If you don't isolate the VFD from your main power system you usually need to install line and load
reactors to mitigate the noise/harmonics/voltage distortion from migrating back onto your electrical system.
 
Joined
Dec 19, 2018
Messages
139
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82
Location
Urbandale, Iowa
I feel like I'm in the belly of a plane going down with a parachute that doesn't have a rip cord. Now I have to figure out how to make it open! Most of us are not engineers. Why would manufacturers turn us loose with technology that is unprotected from commonly occurring hazards?
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2021
Messages
111
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65
Location
Melbourne, AR
Lightning hit a 60’ oak about 25’ from my shop and 100’ from house. Fried garage door openers in shop and house, plus tv, Wii game, dvd player and sat box that were plugged into a $300 surge protector. Ran new 240v outlet where it is easy to reach as part of lathe shut down procedure...stop lathe, turn off power switch and unplug. Retired electrician told me that “unplugging” was the only true protection from lightning strikes.
 
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