Life span of diamond hone?

[Odie]

Anyone ever wear one of these out?

I've been using diamond hones for knife blades for 20+ years, and do not see that they wear out......but, of course, these don't see the kind of heavy use they see at my lathe.

For gouge, and skew honing, I've been using flat diamond hones for several years, and all are working without any indication of wear.

Just wondering what the experiences of others might be with them.

Since we are talking about a diamond surface used to touch up the edge of a HSS tool.......I suspect the life expectancy of these hand held flat diamond hones may be a very long time.......or, even a lifetime! If the micro diamonds lose their bond and fall off, I can see the hones no longer functioning......but, if they stay in place, they ought to be almost "forever", I would think.

BTW, this reminds me..........I recently found a thickly dust covered Norton BS6 Arkansas stone in my "extinct" stuff that hasn't seen use in years. I don't believe I've used this stone in nearly 20 years. Was also wondering if anyone is using this kind of stone to sharpen their lathe tools.....? I did use it for a few years, back in the 80's, but went on to other methods. One thing I recall is the use with oil......not good if it gets on your wood.......

Any comments on these two things? thanks

ooc

 

[Gynia]

The diamonds may last forever. But there are three issues.

1. The diamonds fracture and bits of diamond break off. They can only do that for so long before the before there is no more diamond left.

2. The diamonds are bonded to a substrate. The diamonds break free from the substrate. Age and wear will cause this to happen.

3. The "field" of diamonds can become clogged with the metal which is being abraded in the honing process. This metal debris can become "stuck" to the substrate. This issue can be mitigated by using a liquid (water or oil) to float away the metal waste.

So yes there are several ways in which a diamond hone can be "worn out".

One of the main differences between knife sharpening and turning tool honing is that a knife generally presents a wide surface to the diamonds. Turning tools can often present a small surface to the diamonds. Like the difference between high heels and the low heels of mens shoes. The pressure of the turning tool can be great enough so that items 1 and 2 become an issue.

 

[Mike McDonald]

From DMT's FAQ:


5. How long should the Diamond last on a sharpener?
It depends on how often you use it, if you use it properly, and if you keep it clean and properly stored. When used properly, kept clean and stored dry, DMT® diamond sharpeners will last a very long time. They do not last forever, but they last for years and years. If you use your sharpener as part of your daily work and use it many times a day, you will likely need to replace it in a few years after extraordinary service. If you use your sharpener to sharpen your kitchen knives every so often, chances are your sharpener will last ten or more years. Some of our customers report their DMT® sharpeners are still performing after twenty years of service!

I've never heard of anyone wearing one out, but apparently it IS possible...

-The New Guy

 

[Odie]

From DMT's FAQ:


5. How long should the Diamond last on a sharpener?
It depends on how often you use it, if you use it properly, and if you keep it clean and properly stored. When used properly, kept clean and stored dry, DMT® diamond sharpeners will last a very long time. They do not last forever, but they last for years and years. If you use your sharpener as part of your daily work and use it many times a day, you will likely need to replace it in a few years after extraordinary service. If you use your sharpener to sharpen your kitchen knives every so often, chances are your sharpener will last ten or more years. Some of our customers report their DMT® sharpeners are still performing after twenty years of service!

I've never heard of anyone wearing one out, but apparently it IS possible...

-The New Guy

Thanks, Mike and Gynia.......

This is kind of what I expected to hear. Yes, I guess diamonds really are forever!......but to expect that they'll stay attached to the steel plate is unreasonable to assume.........

I am one who likely sharpens much more often than the average turner does......and my diamond hones are still tweaking the edge very well. The indicator is a bright shiny margin between the ground portion, and the limits of the edge itself. When I'm no longer able to see that after a few strokes, then it's time to get a new diamond hone.

ooc

 

[robo hippy]

While I don't use mine a lot, they don't cut nearly as well as they did when new. They do clog up, and I can't find any way to clean them. Had mine for 15 years. They are still flat though.

robo hippy

 

[Harry Robinette]

Life span of diamond hone

Odie
Yes they wear out.I go through one about ever year to year and a half.I only use the cheap credit card from DMT $15.00 (red one marked fine) I believe it's 600 grit.I've been honing my tools for about 8 or 9 years.
The other reason knife hones last longer is your not sharpening HSS knifes, at less I don't use HSS knifes.So that might be a reason.
Hope this makes since.
Harry

 

[Paul Hannaby]

While I don't use mine a lot, they don't cut nearly as well as they did when new. They do clog up, and I can't find any way to clean them. Had mine for 15 years. They are still flat though.

robo hippy

I clean mine one of two ways -
Use an old toothbrush and a drop of dishwashing detergent to give the hone a good scrub, then rinse off and dry thoroughly.
Alternatively, rub the surface all over with an ordinary pencil eraser, it lifts off the ingrained dirt and particles and leaves the surface much cleaner.

Hope this helps

Paul

 

[john lucas]

I buy the cheap plastic handled diamond hones from DMT or E-Z-Lap. The wear out. I go through a set about every 2 years or maybe longer. They get to where they just don't cut as fast. They do a great job. I use them to sharpen my skews and raise a burr on my scrapers. I rarely use them to hone gouges but do on occasion.
I purchased a tapered fish hook diamond sharpener to clean off the burrs on the inside of gouges. This thing is really holding up well and was only about $5. I don't remember the brand. I don't use it as often but it's probably 5 years old or more.
I've wondered how long the diamond hone that Alan Lacer sells will hold up. I've wanted one but they are pricey.

 

[Gretch Flo]

credit card diamond sharpers

I have had several of these, along with the handled ones John uses and they do wear out-just rub your finger over a new on and a well used one. I bought the "lifetime" diamond sharpener over a year ago and it hasn't worn yet. It is about 1/4" think, ?3x6" . It's in the shop and not here to measure. Think I got it at either craft supply or Klingspor. Around $35 I think. I use it many times in a day on my tear drop scrapers. Pleased with it, Gretch

 

[Rob Wallace]

I've wondered how long the diamond hone that Alan Lacer sells will hold up. I've wanted one but they are pricey.

John, I've had my Lacer diamond hone (=600 grit) for about 5 or 6 years (price then was at $80, now they sell for $88 each), and it still cuts reasonably well with only moderate use (mostly when I'm doing demos and need to touch up an edge of a gouge when I don't have a grinder available, or to raise a burr on a scraper). I do find that it does load easily with metal, and every so often I will soak it with WD-40 by wrapping a piece of paper towel around it, spray the towel & hone until very wet, and then put it in a plastic bag overnight (or for a few days if I forget about it!), and then scrub-out the metal particles with a wire brush. Wiping with a dry paper towel enables you to see how much clogging metal you've removed. If lots of metal comes off during the first cleaning, I will soak, brush, and wipe again until subsequent dry towel wipings appear mostly clean. I can't really tell how much better (relative to new) the hone cuts, but it does cut MUCH better after a periodic cleaning. Come to think of it, I'll go do one right now...

Rob Wallace

 

[robo hippy]

I have tried Ajax and a scrub brush. It has almost no effect, other than to clean up the holes in the DMT stones. Haven't tried dish soap or the erasers. When researching diamond grinding wheels years ago, I was told by a maker that they are fine for carbide, but not for steel. Steel is too soft and will clog the wheels, and there is no way to clean them.

robo hippy

 

[Odie]

I have tried Ajax and a scrub brush. It has almost no effect, other than to clean up the holes in the DMT stones. Haven't tried dish soap or the erasers. When researching diamond grinding wheels years ago, I was told by a maker that they are fine for carbide, but not for steel. Steel is too soft and will clog the wheels, and there is no way to clean them.

robo hippy

Hello Robo Hippy........

I think it's been pretty well established the usefulness of these diamond hones for HSS lathe tools. Although I have only been using them for several years on my lathe tools, they have performed to my expectation to improve the sharpness of gouges and skews. My findings are a duplicate of many others who have put them to use.

I do not, however, see any use for diamond hones on scrapers........but, I have my ears to the ground on this, and I'm learning to "never say never" about what is and is not possible.......sometimes, it just takes a creative mind to make pioneering discoveries!

As far as clogging up.......man, I just haven't seen that, and mine have seen some heavy use. As I said in a previous post......as long as I can see the visible shiny results along the edge of the tool, as well as results in sharp clean cutting at the lathe, I know it's still working as it should.

I have had several of these, along with the handled ones John uses and they do wear out-just rub your finger over a new on and a well used one. I bought the "lifetime" diamond sharpener over a year ago and it hasn't worn yet. It is about 1/4" think, ?3x6" . It's in the shop and not here to measure. Think I got it at either craft supply or Klingspor. Around $35 I think. I use it many times in a day on my tear drop scrapers. Pleased with it, Gretch

Howdy Gretch.......

I suspect some of that residue you are seeing, is normal to the manufacturing process. So far, I have six diamond hones, and virtually all of them have a powdery fine surface when new. This surface is quickly scraped away with normal use.

I have one of the same diamond sharpeners you speak of.......2x6x1/4", made by EZLap and comes in a sheath. So far, this seems like the best of all that I've tried. I have that one, plus both 600, 1200 credit card, two 1/4" round, 600 folder, and 600 cone folder. The two credit card sized diamond hones are also made by EZLap, and have the same technique to apply the diamond powder.......only, they are not quite as handy to maneuver as the bigger one.....especially going aroung a rounded edge like the gouge.......well, from my point of view anyway!

ooc

 

[Jake Debski]

Scraper burr

Odie,

Late fall of 2010 I attended a hands on given by Al Stirt, at the Presque Isle Turning Club, in Erie,PA. Of all the excellent techniques I came away with that day, the use of a relatively large diamond hone that Mr. Stirt, drew a fresh burr on his purpose ground shear scraper really impressed me. I have adopted that idea. Even though my hones are less robust and require a bit more work to achieve the burr. The results are worth the effort. My 2cents.

 

[Odie]

Odie,

Late fall of 2010 I attended a hands on given by Al Stirt, at the Presque Isle Turning Club, in Erie,PA. Of all the excellent techniques I came away with that day, the use of a relatively large diamond hone that Mr. Stirt, drew a fresh burr on his purpose ground shear scraper really impressed me. I have adopted that idea. Even though my hones are less robust and require a bit more work to achieve the burr. The results are worth the effort. My 2cents.

Hi Jake.......If you, or anyone else can direct readers of this thread to some further information on this technique, it would be appreciated.

Thanks

ooc

 

[Dean Center]

Hi Jake.......If you, or anyone else can direct readers of this thread to some further information on this technique, it would be appreciated.
ooc

Alan Lacer demonstrated it at our club last summer and it might be on his web site in his free instructional materials.

 

[Jake Debski]

Hi Jake.......If you, or anyone else can direct readers of this thread to some further information on this technique, it would be appreciated.

Thanks

ooc

Odie if you have the Winter-2008 AAW Journal it is there by Alan Lacer. It is also on his website

http://www.alanlacer.com/

It is not exactly as we were shown but its got the bacics very well spelled out.

 

[Odie]

Odie if you have the Winter-2008 AAW Journal it is there by Alan Lacer. It is also on his website

http://www.alanlacer.com/

It is not exactly as we were shown but its got the BASICs very well spelled out.

Jake, thanks for the link.......I'm reading it now on Alan Lacer's site. Do not have the journal that covers this, but it looks like a good article on the A.L. site......might be the same article.

---------------------------------

edit: Here, Alan Lacer addresses my question about the Arkansas stone that I recently retrieved from the "dead file" of tools in my shop. I started out with this Arkansas stone in the early 1980's......but, haven't used it in a long long time.

quote: "So why do so few turners take their tools to the last phase, that of honing? There are several reasons. First, the tools are considerably tougher these days and many of the hand honing stones just don't work very well or not at all. I have in mind natural stones like Arkansas and Washita and man-made stones like Japanese water stones and the gray carborundum stones. All require lubrication (oil or water) and may require an inordinate amount of time to achieve satisfactory results with today's tool steels. "

------------------------------------

2nd edit: Bookmarked this article to return tomorrow......got to go to bed. Many things Alan Lacer has stated, are the same conclusions I've come to. Some things are seen/understood from a better perspective, after his explanations. I am anxious to return to the shop tomorrow after work and do some testing of Alan Lacer's advice............

ooc

 

[David Wilkins]

Speaking of hones,
I have several hones including one that is about 8 years old, when they see a lot of use they just don't cut as fast as when they are new.

However a few years ago I bought this 8000 grit ceramic hone. http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=44628&cat=1,43072
from Lee Valley, I expect it will stop working when I drop it on the concrete floor. The edge it creates is fantastic.

 

[robo hippy]

The burr that you can raise on a scraper with a diamond hone is comparable to the burr you get on a negative rake scraper: very delicate, and gone in seconds. I prefer the burr from my grinding wheels, as it is more durable, and does just about everything that a burnished burr does. The burnished burr will cut slightly cleaner though.

robo hippy

 

[Steven Antonucci]

I use the green DMT and I usually lose it before I wear it out. The edge of the hone is definitely better than the center, but the center still cuts.

I also use ceramics from time to time, but I think that they clog much easier and are even harder to clean than the diamond hones. I usually use a little bit of spit in a paper towel to clean my hone, as it seems to work a little bit better than water.

S

 

[Odie]

I applied one of Alan Lacer's suggestions tonight to my scrapers, and saw no real discernible improvement in the cutting ability of the burr to cut cleanly.

His advice was to smooth the entire top surface of the scraper. I have some older HSS scrapers that have a non-surfaced top. These look like the basic stock may be forged, and not ground. For these, there may be some merit to surfacing the top surface, but most every other scraper I have, already have somewhat of a smooth surface.......probably 240gt surface ground, or finer. There is some grinding marks left from the Sorby manufacturer, but my guess is the ridges are only a few ten thousands of an inch thick......pretty minute, and I couldn't tell that surfacing the tops of these tools produced a burr that cut any cleaner than before.

One piece of advice that is definitely going to help me, is to hone an edge of a gouge and skew by keeping the diamond hone touching two points......edge and heel of the hollow grind. Prior to tonight, I was very close to touching, but not quite. It only stands to reason that getting a lower angle on the edge will improve overall sharpness. Having a two point contact will utilize maximum advantage of the diamond hone to produce the sharpest edge possible.

ooc

 

[Dean Center]

I applied one of Alan Lacer's suggestions tonight to my scrapers, and saw no real discernible improvement in the cutting ability of the burr to cut cleanly. His advice was to smooth the entire top surface of the scraper.
ooc

Odie, I think Alan Lacer's reason is not necessarily a cleaner cut so much as it's to control the size of the burr you raise. The idea being that a smaller burr makes a finer cut, a bigger burr makes a bigger cut.

 

[Odie]

Odie, I think Alan Lacer's reason is not necessarily a cleaner cut so much as it's to control the size of the burr you raise. The idea being that a smaller burr makes a finer cut, a bigger burr makes a bigger cut. You get to choose what you want for the specific need at hand.

Yes, I see what you're getting at, and I think you might be right about your take on his meaning, Dean........

I'm not so sure that what Lacer is trying to accomplish isn't something that is usually manipulated through the use of smooth tool control and proper presentation.

I am going to keep Lacer's advice in mind. It could be quite possible that some specific piece of wood will come along and will be exactly what it takes to see an improvement in surface refinement. We all know that lathe experience leads us to the knowledge that what works this time.......isn't necessarily what will work the next time!

Regardless......thanks for the insight.

ooc

 

[Jerry Hall]

Cabinet scraper v. Turning scrapers

In fine furniture programs it is taught to polish all surfaces of a cabinet scraper where they intersect the scraping edge. The theory being that the quality of the edge, or the burr can only be as good as the poorest quality intersecting surface. I was taught to polish to a mirror finish (2000 grit or more) and then raise the burr. The burr could be dampened down and raised again a very few times, but then the burr should be completely removed and the surfaces re polished. You can see the results clearly in cabinet making. This technique is intended to avoid sanding and to result in a polished wood surface with no tearout.

The new carbide inserts for lathe tools are in some cases derived from jointer/planer cutters that are also highly polished on each surface near the cutting/scraping edge. And when fresh produce a very nice surface in many cases.

All this is a long winded way of saying that in exceptional circumstances Alan's advice for dealing with difficult surfaces and minimizing sanding has a good rationale it seems to me. The result under a microscope is that a ground burr from a 80 grit stone will produce a burr that looks like VVVVVVV while a polished scraper will produce a burr that might be represented as '''''''''''''''''''''' Clearly the later will produce a smoother surface in skilled hands. That is also why we sometimes use a well honed skew for scraping. And some turners even use cabinet scrapers free hand.

 

[Odie]

In fine furniture programs it is taught to polish all surfaces of a cabinet scraper where they intersect the scraping edge. The theory being that the quality of the edge, or the burr can only be as good as the poorest quality intersecting surface. I was taught to polish to a mirror finish (2000 grit or more) and then raise the burr. The burr could be dampened down and raised again a very few times, but then the burr should be completely removed and the surfaces re polished. You can see the results clearly in cabinet making. This technique is intended to avoid sanding and to result in a polished wood surface with no tearout.

The new carbide inserts for lathe tools are in some cases derived from jointer/planer cutters that are also highly polished on each surface near the cutting/scraping edge. And when fresh produce a very nice surface in many cases.

All this is a long winded way of saying that in exceptional circumstances Alan's advice for dealing with difficult surfaces and minimizing sanding has a good rationale it seems to me.

It does make good rationale, for a hand held scraper. Since we are discussing many times the footage of use when used on a lathe, such a delicate burr is eliminated rather quickly......or, so it seems to me. I'll have to admit that I've played around with a hand raised burr some, but have found that it leads to discouragement as to how long it lasts. After trying it a few times, I've gone back to the grinder raised burr.......which I've found to suit my needs of longer lasting burr that produces a smooth finish with minimal sanding.

This is not to say my methods should be yours, or anybody elses methods......only that it's my method, and I'm seeing results that I feel satisfied with!

ooc

 

[Jerry Hall]

Odie, I agree

for woodturning. My comments were largely theory. But on (rare) occasion perhaps for punky and difficult wood it has helped to play around with a finer burr.

 

[Odie]

for woodturning. My comments were largely theory. But on (rare) occasion perhaps for punky and difficult wood it has helped to play around with a finer burr.

Also agreed!

I don't mean to suggest the finer burr has no purpose, but for the most part, the ground burr will produce a surface that is workable. Sometimes, we must do whatever we can to get the best surface, and the fine burr is just one more thing in our "bag of tricks"..........:cool2:

ooc

 

[Dean Center]

This thread got me paying more attention. I discovered a couple of smooth, shiny places on my hone. It's a $15 one from one of the major suppliers. I've only had it for a few months and I'm not that prolific a turner, but it's clearly losing it's grit. Did I hear someone say, "you get what you pay for"?

 

[Steven Antonucci]

Also agreed!

I don't mean to suggest the finer burr has no purpose, but for the most part, the ground burr will produce a surface that is workable. Sometimes, we must do whatever we can to get the best surface, and the fine burr is just one more thing in our "bag of tricks"..........:cool2:

ooc

I think Jerry's dead on. You can scrap with an "unfinished edge" and get an ok result, but I read Lacer's article in AAW Journal a couple of years back and I have never looked back. I now use a diamond hone on my cabinet scrapers to get finer burrs, but I think they also last longer.

If you consider that the edge is the WVVWVVVVW pattern with the valleys and peak sizes being defined by the side of the last abrasive you used to cut them, you will see that there are fewer of them if you stop at 240 vs. 2000 because they are larger. When they break off, the effectly are your cutting edge. If you used a finer abrasive like the diamond hone at 1200, you end up with llllllllllllllll, which means you get more cutting points per inch, and less of a negative effect if one breaks off.

I have honed and polished the top edge of my turning scrapers (last inch) to a mirror finish, and I pull the burr with a 1200 grit diamond hone and 2-3 strokes. It is night and day to what I used to be able to get with a scraper.

YMMV

S