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Live Centers is new better?

DOCworks

DOCworks

Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
231
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Location
Apopka, FL
Website
www.docwks.com
I have a question...has anyone had enough time (and money) to review the new Robust live center? I have the Oneway and Powermatic (knock off) and love them. I love the bearing the new Robust is using in their live center, but I have a question about the design...The Oneway and Powermatic have the body and M2 shaft as one unit and the "pin" fits into the bearings that fit into this body. The robust has the M2 "stem" with the bearing and the pin and body over it. I'm may not be explaining it correctly, but from a first impression I question if it will hold up as well. I know the bearing will hold up the axial thrust better, but I wonder if the M2 stem (shaft) will hold off balanced pieces as well. I'll post pictures later...

oneway.jpgRobust.jpg
 
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I played with one in Nashville but I don't remember 2 things that might a diffference for what your asking. One was I don't remember if it was hollow. Second I forgot to ask what size the shaft is that goes into the bearing. It could be almost 3/4" since that's approximately the size of the large end of a #2 morse taper. If it's not hollow and is 5/8 or larger then I would think it's much stronger than the Oneway or Powermatic but that's pure speculation on my part.
It would seem the weak part of any of them is the 3/4x 10 threaded portion that sticks out. It's hollow on all of those live centers so you only have the thickness of the metal from the bottom of the thread to the center hole.
 
DOCworks said:
I have a question...has anyone had enough time (and money) to review the new Robust live center? I have the Oneway and Powermatic (knock off) and love them. I love the bearing the new Robust is using in their live center, but I have a question about the design...The Oneway and Powermatic have the body and M2 shaft as one unit and the "pin" fits into the bearings that fit into this body. The robust has the M2 "stem" with the bearing and the pin and body over it. I'm may not be explaining it correctly, but from a first impression I question if it will hold up as well. I know the bearing will hold up the axial thrust better, but I wonder if the M2 stem (shaft) will hold off balanced pieces as well. I'll post pictures later...
Click to expand...

I don't think that is the problem, but I prefer the inner race to be the rotating element for a couple reasons. One of my reasons might not be obvious, but based on some engineering environmental testing that I was involved in on a gearbox, having the outer housing rotate caused the gears to become starved of lubricant for the gear teeth because of centrifugal forces slinging the grease to the walls of the housing. This became a problem under cold testing where the grease thickened. The situation isn't quite the same, but it is something to be mindful about depending on the lubricant fill level in the bearing. With the outer bearing race rotating there should be enough grease to keep the balls and inner race lubricated, but depending on the seals, the centrifugal force could cause more leaking than with the inner race rotating. The other reason is just a personal preference of not wanting a rotating element that might come in contact with a tool for close-in work at the tailstock end.
 
BTW, looking at the picture I see some nice features. It appears that there is a threaded hole which would be useful for use with a threaded retainer. The snap ring woulds be nice for easy bearing replacement. Oneway requires sending the live center back to them for repair.
 
Couple more things I've noticed before I start actually using the Robust live center. The set screw that holds and allows the center pin to be adjusted, reversed or removed should be brass tipped as it will deform the pin shaft and make it difficult to adjust or remove. The center hole does go all the way through so the supporting shaft is not solid. Last but not least, what is the hole in the body for? the shaft does not have a cross hole in it so you can lock the head to put on and or remove cones or other adapters, my only guess is it's for a spanner wrench. I'm not sure I like this as it will allow dust and small chips around the shaft between the bearings. hummmm. I'll be demonstrating this weekend and will get a chance to put it through it's paces on a small lathe, this is good as I can test it a bit before I put it on my big lathe.
 
DOCworks said:
Couple more things I've noticed before I start actually using the Robust live center. The set screw that holds and allows the center pin to be adjusted, reversed or removed should be brass tipped as it will deform the pin shaft and make it difficult to adjust or remove. The center hole does go all the way through so the supporting shaft is not solid. Last but not least, what is the hole in the body for? the shaft does not have a cross hole in it so you can lock the head to put on and or remove cones or other adapters, my only guess is it's for a spanner wrench. I'm not sure I like this as it will allow dust and small chips around the shaft between the bearings. hummmm. I'll be demonstrating this weekend and will get a chance to put it through it's paces on a small lathe, this is good as I can test it a bit before I put it on my big lathe.
Click to expand...

There are set screws that have a rounded tip rather than a cup tip which might be better than a brass tip. My experience with brass tips is the are easy to break off. I think that I might prefer a tapered tip that can be knocked out with a rod.

The through hole is a good thing because it allows using a drill such as used for drilling holes for lamp rods. The Oneway live center also has that feature.

Don't know what the hole in the body might be for, but I doubt that it would be any more prone to collecting dust than the hole on the Oneway live center or the Powermatic live center. The bearings are sealed so there is no real dust issue that I see. If I see what I think that I see in the pictures, the body does not need to be locked to put on cones -- just hold it while screwing on a cone. A rod is necessary on the Oneway live center because there is nothing to hold while screwing a cone onto the threads.

Do you see anything if you look through the hole while rotating the taper shank?
 
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One advantage that is perhaps not so clear but I find nice is that you can add/remove threaded cones, points, etc., without having to use a locking rod (as is required with the Oneway center). You just hold the center with your hand; no locking device required. Ironically, I use my threaded oneway center attachments more now that I have a robust center to put them on.
 
Bill I don't know what size the through hole is on this but on the Oneway it's too small to take a 3/8" lamp auger. I'm guessing that is the same since it also has the same 3/4 x 10 thread on the front. My favorite live center is the Nova. I has a short #2 morse taper on the front for insertion of different tips. It's extremely easy to make whatever center you need to fit in this hole. You can simply turn a #2 morse tape, then drive it in the headstock and turn what ever shape is needed for the Nova live center. Then just cut the morse taper short enough. I've had that center for probably 12 or more years and still haven't needed to replace the bearings.
 
DOCworks said:
Couple more things I've noticed before I start actually using the Robust live center. The set screw that holds and allows the center pin to be adjusted, reversed or removed should be brass tipped as it will deform the pin shaft and make it difficult to adjust or remove. The center hole does go all the way through so the supporting shaft is not solid. Last but not least, what is the hole in the body for? the shaft does not have a cross hole in it so you can lock the head to put on and or remove cones or other adapters, my only guess is it's for a spanner wrench. I'm not sure I like this as it will allow dust and small chips around the shaft between the bearings. hummmm. I'll be demonstrating this weekend and will get a chance to put it through it's paces on a small lathe, this is good as I can test it a bit before I put it on my big lathe.
Click to expand...

Bill,

I haven't had a chance to use this center. It looks good and I assume it has the high quality of everything Robust makes.

It looks like the large cylinder turns?

I have had ONEWAY centers for about 20 years. One of the features I really like is that the large cylinder does not rotate. This is a real advantage to me when reverse chucking to turn small foots. The tool rest can touch the center. Tools can touch the center. Hand holding the tool can touch the center....

I make fittings for the tip by just drilling a 3/4" hole in a block of wood. Press the fitting over the threaded section with a couple wraps of tape. Turn it to shape. Low tech, Tight fit no need to thread it.
I have several centers that I use in rare occasions. The ONEWAY most often.

Be interested in what you find usefulness about this center.

Al
 
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hockenbery said:
... It looks like the large cylinder turns? ...
Click to expand...

It's pretty obvious that the outer body turns from the photograph.

My favorite live center is the MultiStar followed by Oneway. I prefer one where the body doesn't rotate, but if it is solidly made without any play, I could overlook that for certain situations. However, like you, I also do close work to the live center and like the idea of the body not rotating. The small size of the Multistar is why I like it so much.
 
the body rotates on the Nova live center. I've never found it to be a problem. In fact I made a couple of larger adaptors that go over the body.
 
Robust

I bought one of these yesterday as I got to see one when Nick Agar was here and I was very impressed. This is stated on the Robust website:

Robust Live Centers use bigger bearings, and warrants them for five years.
A precision 40 degree angular contact ball bearing, sealed & lubricated for life, carries both the thrust load and rear radial load.
Combined with a precision radial bearing in the nose, this two bearing setup will deliver long lasting service and accuracy.

Bill
 
john lucas said:
the body rotates on the Nova live center. I've never found it to be a problem. In fact I made a couple of larger adaptors that go over the body.
Click to expand...
John,
I was never able to take advantage of this feature until I owned a live center where the housing did not rotate.

For most folks it isn't important.

I make adapters to go over the mini lathe centers which have 1.5" diameter.
The 3/4" nose on the ONEWAY lets me make the adapters a lot smaller.

Also Bruce Campbell makes a series of extension points for the ONEWAY center. These are super useful in reverse chucking small feet.
Turning small object. Adds a lot of working room and they are inexpensive. They also fit the Powermatic copy of the ONEWAY center.
Might fit the new Robust center.

http://www.artisansworkbench.com/Product info/Extension Points/extension_points.htm

Al
 
Sergio Villa said:
Just one question. Why live centers mt2 or 3 are not used in woodturning? Any specific reason?
These would be nice and strong: http://www.royalprod.com/content/files/products/CP_LC.pdf although a little expensive.
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Not sure what you mean. All wood turning live centers are MT 1, 2, or 3. Those in your link certainly are nice, but not even most metal lathe work needs the kind of precision the live centers in your link have. The price seems a little too rich for my blood.
 
Sergio Villa said:
Just one question. Why live centers mt2 or 3 are not used in woodturning? Any specific reason? These would be nice and strong: http://www.royalprod.com/content/files/products/CP_LC.pdf although a little expensive.
Click to expand...

Sergio, Not sure I understand your question.

The most common centers in the US are #2M

#3M are on standard on the large Oneway Lathes, VB 36, Serious, and optional on the Robust.
Most large capacity lathes use the #3M
 
He must be referring to metal turning live centers rather than specifically size. You can of course use a #2 morse taper live center of any brand although some have tangs on the end that won't fit in all wood lathes. For example the drill chuck I got that has a tang will fit my Powermatic but not my Delta midi. The tang adds too much length and won't seat in the midi. Since we don't use the tang I cut it down. Not completely because some lathes do use the length to self eject the tool.
The main difference is most metal lathe live centers are more expensive than wood lathe live centers.
 
Bill Boehme said:
Not sure what you mean. All wood turning live centers are MT 1, 2, or 3. Those in your link certainly are nice, but not even most metal lathe work needs the kind of precision the live centers in your link have. The price seems a little too rich for my blood.
Click to expand...

MT2 and MT3 because certainly you do not need for woodturning a MT8 that can hold 90,000 pounds...
 
Sergio Villa said:
MT2 and MT3 because certainly you do not need for woodturning a MT8 that can hold 90,000 pounds...
Click to expand...

... but back to your question .... you asked why MT2 and MT3 live centers were NOT used for woodturning while, in fact, they are. Was it a typo perhaps? Anyway, I am still puzzled.
 
Oh, you are right, I meant a mt2 mt3 live center for CNC lathes are not used in woodturning. A lapsus mentis, I guess
 
Well I used the Robust live center on a Jet 1014 Sunday while doing small turnings for the Apopka Art & Foliage festival at Danny Hoffman, Gene & George's booth. It worked well this next weekend I will be at the St John's River Festival of the art on a Jet 1221 and turning some larger bowls and platters. The Live center preformed well, but other than the fact it's made in the USA, which is important to me, I'm not ready to give up my others. I will say one very positive thing I really like having the extra room on the live center to get my 3/8" bowl and detail gouge down near the bottom of the bowl or vessel when clearing off the base using a jam chuck.
 
DOCworks said:
I will say one very positive thing I really like having the extra room on the live center to get my 3/8" bowl and detail gouge down near the bottom of the bowl or vessel when clearing off the base using a jam chuck.
Click to expand...

Bill,
How is that different from the ONEWAY center or the Powermatic copy?

I get the difference from the stock mini lathe center.
The 1.5" diameter center on the mini lathes is a major impediment to work I do.

I always use a ONEWAY or craft supplies center when I use a mini-lathe
I would do without a chuck and use a faceplate before I would do without a small diameter center.

Al
 
hockenbery said:
Bill,
How is that different from the ONEWAY center or the Powermatic copy?

I get the difference from the stock mini lathe center.
The 1.5" diameter center on the mini lathes is a major impediment to work I do.

I always use a ONEWAY or craft supplies center when I use a mini-lathe
I would do without a chuck and use a faceplate before I would do without a small diameter center.

Al
Click to expand...

Al, as you can see from the photos, the narrow nose of the Robust live center sticks out much further from the main body than it does for the Oneway -- perhaps twice as far. Plus the tip can be extended out much further.
 
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hockenbery said:
The necked down section?
The threads are not longer are they?
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I don't think so, but the Robust site has some line drawings that show how it tapers back to allow working closer to the center. Also, the point can be extended out well past the threaded nose.
 
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Bill Boehme said:
I don't think so, but the Robust site has some line drawings that show how it tapers back to allow working closer to the center. Also, the point can't be extended out well past the threaded nose.
Click to expand...

Dictionary update...
Tapers back: Texas phrase for Florida phrase necked down.

I have a set of long points for the ONEWAY/Powermatic center that Bruce Campbell makes.
A set of 3 is like $25 and he has 5 different shapes, itty bitty points, flats, cone....
Anyone who does small work or re chuck turning of small feet needs them.

Al
 
The benefit of the moveable center point is you can extend it further to allow more contact or retract it if you want less, or a small contact point. In recentering, you want less so that moving the object (bowl) doesn't require you to go back deep into a hole and large amounts of movement. This is where the Nova was real good because of the small center point recessed. Understand that you can only move the center the diameter of the previous hole you have made. If it is large, you can only move it the vertical distance away from that hole to not recenter it in that hole (if that makes sense).

Yes, the Robust centers whole outside body rotates, unlike the Oneway and Jet clones, there is a lot less vertical movement in the Robust, valuable when using a chuck adapter (props to Johnny Tolly for that invention). Less movement (not actually vertical, but the axis we are concerned with in this application) means better recentering.

Under full disclosure, I have been using them since the Beta version came out and am a Robust dealer.
as for the whole body turning, it still kind of keeps me on edge as I have been using the Oneways for 15 or so years and used the Nova, but never made that comparison until now. It is only an issue if you have the tail stock rubbing against the tool rest, or your hand while turning. Which you shouldn't be anyway.
 
Steve Worcester said:
.... Understand that you can only move the center the diameter of the previous hole you have made. If it is large, you can only move it the vertical distance away from that hole to not recenter it in that hole (if that makes sense). .....
Click to expand...

If I said yes, would you have grounds to question my sanity? :rolleyes:

Generally, if I want to make small adjustments in centering something on the tailstock, I usuall remove the point and use the sharp edges of the hollow point for centering. The hardness difference between early and late wood is often a reason to not use the point because it will drift towards the softer wood.
 
Well, I sent the live center back to Robust after giving it a through trial. This is not a bad thing. The live center preformed as well as the ones I have, but it wasn't good enough to replace any of my current 3. Would I pick it if I were buying my first or only one...I think so. I'm used to the ones I have and will stick with them. Brent English was very generous with my comments and understanding. Mine is the first to come back and I doubt there will by many more. Will I purchase a Robust if one of my old ones dies....yes. But I have three and really can't justify a 4th. Next on my "IS it really better" the Doug Thompson bowl gouge for Lyle Jamieson - is parabolic really better? I've got it in a handle and some wood on the lathe.
 
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DOCworks said:
Well, I sent the live center back to Robust after giving it a through trial. This is not a bad thing. The live center preformed as well as the ones I have, but it wasn't good enough to replace any of my current 3. Would I pick it if I were buying my first or only one...I think so. I'm used to the ones I have and will stick with them. Brent English was very generous with my comments and understanding. Mine is the first to come back and I doubt there will by many more. Will I purchase a Robust if one of my old ones dies....yes. But I have three and really can't justify a 4th. Next on my "IS it really better" the Doug Thompson bowl gouge for Lyle Jamieson - is parabolic really better? I've got it in a handle and some wood on the lathe. Ciao
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Bill,
Appreciate your assessment.

Parabolic is absolutely better. Unless you like vee tools.
I like parabolic.

My first exposure with the side ground gouge was with Liam Oniel, around 1995.
He used a vee tool. I still have have two kicking around.

My next evolution a year later was with David Ellsworth and the parabolic flute.
It just feels better so I cut better with it. I also think it is a lot easier to teach people to use the parabolic flute is is A bit friendlier with a less pointy nose.
So are you focusing on Lyle's flute design? As opposed to Henry Taylor's flute design?

Al
 
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Difference between Ellsworth and Jamieson [arabolics??????? (i have both-Lyle just came out with the Thompson made barabolic flute for him-I use them side by side. Not quite sure if the edge lasts longer. Have to compare them more. Gretch
 
DOCworks said:
Well, I sent the live center back to Robust after giving it a through trial. This is not a bad thing. The live center preformed as well as the ones I have, but it wasn't good enough to replace any of my current 3. Would I pick it if I were buying my first or only one...I think so. I'm used to the ones I have and will stick with them. Brent English was very generous with my comments and understanding. Mine is the first to come back and I doubt there will by many more. Will I purchase a Robust if one of my old ones dies....yes. But I have three and really can't justify a 4th. Next on my "IS it really better" the Doug Thompson bowl gouge for Lyle Jamieson - is parabolic really better? I've got it in a handle and some wood on the lathe.
Click to expand...

If you already have three, then a fourth is a tough decision. The Oneway is a good product but doesn't have the precision in reverse realignment. As for Brent, I would give you the same levity.
 
Jamieson gauge

russ stanton said:
Where do you get the lyle jamison parabolic doug thompson tool. I tried both web sites and do not see it listed
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I had been getting the Ellsworth gouges for years. Then I went to some of Lyle's demos and started buying his. Not sure I know the difference. (but I am not as "picky" or knowledgeable as you guys). I ordered 3 Jamieson gouges about 3? months ago. Lyle called me and said he only had 2 left and was getting Thompson to make his now with a steel that lasts longer between sharpenings. So I got his last 2 and then a few weeks later he sent me one of the new ones when they finally came in.
Look at his web site and "store"
lylejamieson.com Gretch
 
If you check out Lyle's youtube on sharpening, I believe you will find that Jamieson and Ellsworth both have a parabolic flute. The difference is in how they are ground, Ellsworth grind is more straight sided on the grind, where the Jamieson grind is more of an angle leaving a wider bottom for support of the cut(his explanation).
 
Bill Boehme said:
I don't think so, but the Robust site has some line drawings that show how it tapers back to allow working closer to the center. Also, the point can't be extended out well past the threaded nose.
Click to expand...

One of the differences is the adjustable point, it can be extended 0-5/8" past the nose. The Oneway is tapered and sits back in it's taper so it extends somewhere around .125".
The treaded portions are the same size, but the Oneway has a shoulder that the add on points sit against and is proud of the body about .075". Mainly because the node (internals) turn vs the Robust where the body turns.
Both have through holes, the Robust though is threaded 3/8x16 for a drawbar I guess. But I don't know what you need a drawbar in a live center (I am sure to get some reasons).
The Oneway comes with the knockout bar, not on the Robust, nor does it some with the tommy bars for the body (and the extra cones if you buy them). Cones are included in the Oneway.

For the amount of reverse turning I do, and using the Tolly Adapter, it works better than the Oneway. If you already have a Oneway (or a Jet/Powermatic) and don't fit that criteria, I don't see a need to upgrade.
 
Steve Worcester said:
One of the differences is the adjustable point, it can be extended 0-5/8" past the nose. The Oneway is tapered and sits back in it's taper so it extends somewhere around .125".
The treaded portions are the same size, but the Oneway has a shoulder that the add on points sit against and is proud of the body about .075". Mainly because the node (internals) turn vs the Robust where the body turns.
Both have through holes, the Robust though is threaded 3/8x16 for a drawbar I guess. But I don't know what you need a drawbar in a live center (I am sure to get some reasons).
The Oneway comes with the knockout bar, not on the Robust, nor does it some with the tommy bars for the body (and the extra cones if you buy them). Cones are included in the Oneway.

For the amount of reverse turning I do, and using the Tolly Adapter, it works better than the Oneway. If you already have a Oneway (or a Jet/Powermatic) and don't fit that criteria, I don't see a need to upgrade.
Click to expand...

I just noticed that I had a typo in my post that changed its meaning entirely. I had typed that the "point can't be be extended", but what I meant was "the point can be extended". I am sure that some diabolical spell checker changed that. :rolleyes:
 
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