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Making a comeback and need your suggestions

Matt Meadows

Matt Meadows

Joined
May 13, 2005
Messages
172
Likes
111
Location
Charleston SC
Ok team. I've been gone a LONG time and am quite rusty. I got quite good at making pens, but over the past 10 years I've barely turned a thing. The last thing I turned was a cremation urn for a good friend who was killed by a drunk driver.

I have another cremation urn to make, probably a segmented one. I'm highly inspired by Vincent Vogul's recent one although I wont be able to replicate the beautiful knurling. https://www.aawforum.org/community/media/segmented-urn.17858/

I have the old 12" HF lathe with swiveling headstock that I bought specifically for this sort of project eons ago. I also have the 10" Delts Midi.

However it's time I upgrade my tools, and also start teaching my kids how to turn since they are now old enough.

So here's the advice I need. Keep in mind I'm on a modest budget, I cannot throw the bank at this, I'm looking for middle of the road type solutions.

1) I NEED better jaw chuck(s) for turning bowls and cremation urns for use on the 12" lathe, include Cole Jaws. Should I be considering a SuperNova 2, G3, or a Oneway Talon?

2) I think I'd like to try the carbide tools. I'm the production manager of a cabinet manufacturer so I understand chip loading, heat dissipation, etc and love carbide inserts. I'm hoping to use these for bowl turning. Can anyone suggest a good set to start with?

3) Bowl gouge. I realize this is a highly personalized question. But, are carbide tools useful for bowl hollowing? If not, please suggest a nice gouge and jig combination for an 8" grinder (variable speed).
 
Bowls are easily turned with carbide scrapers (and Hunter tools) , though final cuts (except for hunter tools in expert hands) may leave a lot to be desired.. Chuck: I have a Barracuda (PSI woodworking) that works quite well for me, and cost maybe less than the name brand ones... Not sure as cole jaws are really needed - I don't have a set (Though I would like to get some to fit a Nova chuck I got used recently) and have turned many bowls and lidded boxes on my 12 x 36 HF lathe (but I largely turn with traditional HSS tools and a wolverine setup on my Rikon grinder) - Not having mastered the hunter tool (I got an Osprey before I understood what it was, so it mostly sits gathering dust) I don't use carbide very much at all any more (except for spindle work)
 
A Nova G3 Chuck will be fine for either of those lathes. I am not a fan of carbide tools. Your work will require a lot more sanding with the carbide. I used to use carbide tools until I bought a good bowl gouge and don’t use them much any more. You can buy two or three good tools for the same as a set of carbide or less. You can buy them from Thompson or D-Way without handles and make your own, that is what I do.
Thompson and D-Way are very nice tools. I have a slow speed grinder and the Oneway jig with Varigrind. If you are looking to buy a grinder Woodturners Wonders had the Rikon slow speed with two CBN wheels for $400. That is like buying two wheels and getting the grinder for free.
 
Welcome back!

Rusty and Brian have given you good advice, I’ll add my two cents

1. I’ve had a G3 and Talon chucks (along with Stronghold). I currently own multiple Strongholds and a Talon, the fact I no longer own the G3 says something (it will work, but the Talon accepts a wider tenon range etc). Whatever Chuck you decide on, make sure you can get a variety of jaws for it (until you buy more chucks so you don’t have to change jaws :)

2. Carbide usually refers to carbide scrapers, I don’t believe you’ll be happy with these.

Hunter tools use a carbide cutter, VERY good tools. If you didn’t own a grinder, you could do a good job on a bowl with a Hunter Badger…not that it would work as well as some bowl gouges.

3. A good 1/2” shaft bowl gouge would be my recommendation until you buy more, of various sizes. Thompson, Dway, Robust, etc are good steel and are recommended. If you have CBN wheels these will last a long time.

If using conventional grinder wheels you’ll be grinding that steel a lot faster and might be happy with a little bit cheaper steel you’ll find in Sorby, or similarly priced gouges from Woodturnerscatalog.com or similar.

Definitely buy a good jig for grinding, most of us are very happy with a Wolverine.

I started out 30yrs ago with a Jet1240 that sounds similar to your lathe, found within the first 6months that the accessories cost more than the lathe…welcome to the vortex :)
 
I have many many chucks of the major brands and I personally do not believe that one brand is better than the others. They all work as advertised. I have more Nova chucks than the other brands not because they are better but because they are a better buy. All the Nova jaws fit all the Nova chucks except the big Nova Titan which are 3 screw jaws. That fact is not true on some other brands that take different jaws for their different chucks. I can't say you won't be happy with carbide scrapers but I know most woodturners do not use them. Hunter carbide tools cut they do not scrape but myself I would not start my kids using them to start learning to turn. I think a bowl gouge, a scraper and a parting tool are a good starting point for your kids. For an urn regardless if it is solid wood or segmented you'll probably need something besides the gouge for the inside. A curved neck scraper of some sort there would help. Good luck shaking off that rust and get back to enjoying woodturning.
 
1) of those you list, the talon is my choice. The oneway profile jaws are unique and better IMO. Tower jaws do bowls just fine, and allow longer tenons for tall work like urns. I have several psi Barracuda chucks (with the tall alligator jaws). I like everything about them except the chuck key/ring gear - I have a couple that are unusable due to the tip of the chuck key and the hole for it in the chuck body wore out, its a design issue.

2) not a fan of carbide. I use small inserts for shop made hollowing tools but otherwise dont use them. Also have a hunter “gouge” with cupped cutter - not impressed. Since you have a grinder go with hss. Huge difference in the cutting speed and finish of sharp hss vs carbide.

3) I use a 5/8” shaft bg 80-90% of the time (long wing Ellsworth and 40/40 grinds). I turn a lot of bowls and hollow forms. Parabolic flute is best, but a wide V flute works also. In the interest of $, PSI Benjamins Best tools work just as well as $100+ tools, the M2 steel just has to be sharpened more often (their M2 steel tested over 65 Rc with my test files). Hurricane is another good choice for bg’s - more expensive but a longer flute. Both have parabolic flutes.

The advantage of the more expensive steels (M42, V10, etc) is it stays sharper longer. This is a benefit when roughing, but any tool needs resharpened before finish cuts anyway. There is nothing about the flute design or anything else that makes the expensive tools better - edge holding is it. The cheaper tools listed have held an edge as well as more expensive M2 steel from “name brands” when I have used them.
 
I prefer the talon. However all the chucks work well enough.

I turn all my bowls and the outside of hollow forms with an Ellsworth 1/2” bowl gouge (5/8 bar dia) and a 3/8 spindle gouge.

You can do everything with carbides.

A club member with range of motion issues learned to do everything with carbides. He had a lot of them and switched between cutter shapes often. He won several best in show awards at the Florida State fair with pieces turned using carbide.

One time He did a demo of the same form I demoed at our club the month after I did. He compared his method to mine.
I used a bowl gouge, spindle gouge, parting tool, and a pyramid tool. - 4 tools
He used 3 square carbides, 2 round carbides and 3 of the pointy detail. carbides - 8 tools

In teaching kids classes in MD and at the AAW symposium we did mostly spindle type projects.
3/4 spindle roughing gouge, parting tool, 3/8 spindle gouge, chatter tool

Projects - spinning top, whistle, gavel, string puzzle, key ring, pens, …
 
Last edited:
Redfish said:
I think I'd like to try the carbide tools. I'm the production manager of a cabinet manufacturer so I understand chip loading, heat dissipation, etc and love carbide inserts. I'm hoping to use these for bowl turning. Can anyone suggest a good set to start with?
Click to expand...

I have a good bit of experience with carbide lathe tools, which I use very often. But before I try to answer you, could you expand a little on your interest in trying "carbide"? What have you heard, what are you thinking will be the benefits, and are you referring to cutters, scrapers or both?
 
Mark Jundanian said:
I have a good bit of experience with carbide lathe tools, which I use very often. But before I try to answer you, could you expand a little on your interest in trying "carbide"? What have you heard, what are you thinking will be the benefits, and are you referring to cutters, scrapers or both?
Click to expand...

Carbide, generally speaking, holds a sharp edge much longer than HSS. It's weakness is heat. Neither does it tend to be as sharp as you can get HSS so I probably wouldn't replace my skew chisel since I can keep it razor sharp pretty easily.


I haven't heard much really. Carbide for turning came out after I stopped buying tools so all I've seen is a few videos. I'm not sure what people have discovered them useful for.


I always struggled to get a good edge on my bowl gouges. I have a jig and a 1/2" gouge (cannot remember the name for either of them) that I got "ok" with but was always rather disappointed in the grind.

I didn't know at the time that some jigs simply won't shape some gouges properly.

I was hoping to find a Carbide insert that would suffice for hollow bowls, either on dry wood or green.
 
Find a local club in your area if you can. You can have lots of ‘live’ conversations about your questions, and I’m sure someone would be happy to demonstrate and assist you with sharpening. There’s no substitute for ‘hands on’ learning.
 
I just wanted to also say thanks to everyone. This has been very helpful.

I'll pull my stuff out of storage soon and start getting set back up and maybe turn a few practice bowls. I'm out of town right now for the funeral but anticipate making the urn some time in August.

Based on the comments here I'm probably going to order a talon. I have a smaller PSI chuck (lever style) but I need something stronger like the talon for these heavier items.

I may buy a carbide scraper just to try it out but I can understand why y'all say they won't make as clean of a cut, you can get a much sharper edge on HSS.

Thank you all again, I'll be re-reading this thread a lot.
 
Redfish said:
may buy a carbide scraper just to try it out but I can understand why y'all say they won't make as clean of a cut, you can get a much sharper edge on HSS.
Click to expand...
You might find a round carbide more useful.
I use a #4 Hunter for endgrain hollowing to smooth the surface after the spindle gouge.

I suggest you look at @john lucas videos
Google “John Lucas Hunter Carbide”. Several videos will pop up. It’s worth your while to watch each to see what the different tools will do.
 
Redfish said:
Carbide, generally speaking, holds a sharp edge much longer than HSS. It's weakness is heat. Neither does it tend to be as sharp as you can get HSS so I probably wouldn't replace my skew chisel since I can keep it razor sharp pretty easily.


I haven't heard much really. Carbide for turning came out after I stopped buying tools so all I've seen is a few videos. I'm not sure what people have discovered them useful for.


I always struggled to get a good edge on my bowl gouges. I have a jig and a 1/2" gouge (cannot remember the name for either of them) that I got "ok" with but was always rather disappointed in the grind.

I didn't know at the time that some jigs simply won't shape some gouges properly.

I was hoping to find a Carbide insert that would suffice for hollow bowls, either on dry wood or green.
Click to expand...

While you can make a router bit out of tungsten carbide (aka "carbide"), or high speed steel alloys, and the two bits will have much the same shape, carbide has been rarely used to make a fluted gouge shaped tool for use with wood lathes. That said, I believe @Neil S and @hughie have done some experiments. I don't know of anything commercially available, these days. And I can't speak to the pros/cons of a tungsten carbide gouge.

The more common types of carbide turning tools are the flat scrapers and cupped cutters. These are very different tools from a fluted gouge, and very different tools from each other. The flat scrappers come in single bevel and double bevel (aka negative rake) varieties. The single bevel insert will remove material faster, but leaves a rougher finish than the double bevel, but the double bevel will remove material much slower. The double bevel excels at turning acrylics, such as cast pen blanks. In wood I use the single bevel until close to the desired contour line, then switch to double bevel. Note, even a DB carbide scraper will leave a surface that requires more sanding than you would typically need for a fluted gouge surface. Since the scraping surface of the insert is circumferential (really 8 to 4 o'clock), one of the benefits of these tools is that you can create contours that can't be done with a fluted gouge. If you are making a bowl, it's not much benefit unless, maybe, you want a very deeply undercut rim, but for other forms it can be useful. Carbide scrapers are also very useful for hollowing out hollow forms. IF you want to try carbide scrapers I would recommend a set of Easy Wood Tools, round, square and diamond. I would suggest their handle-less tool ( which must be ordered direct from Easy Woods), and that you purchase a set of double bevel inserts along with the single bevel inserts that will come with the tools. If you're serious about a purchase, I can go into more detail about the carbide scraper choices out there and what I think are the pros & cons.

In addition to the flat carbide scrapers there are carbide cupped cutters, for example, from Hunter Tools. These are a different animal from the scrapers. They are generally much smaller inserts, and are generally mounted so as to tip down, rather than horizontal. They have an up turned edge, which is designed to cut rather than scrape, and so leave a smoother finish (i.e. less sanding). They are more aggresive than scrapers, and I think the learning curve with these tools is a little longer than with scrapers, but well worth climbing. I have a few of these tools, as well, but there are other folks on this forum that are more familiar with the Hunter line and can give advice (and aren't running late). One point that I will make is that they cut best along the leading edge, say from 10:30 to 1:30, and on the push stroke.

I think carbide tools of both types are wonderful tools to have available, and I have made bowls with nothing but a round scraper, but to me they are alternative tools not replacement tools for HSS tools. To that end you really want to get better at sharpening, and probably before you drop a chunk of change on a set of carbide scrapers. The Wolverine, Varigrind (original) combination is the most widely used jig and one that you will most likely find at classroom experiences or friends houses. It isn't like using a pencil sharpener; there's still a learning curve. So join a club and seek out other classes and mentors. And as was said, Welcome Back!
 
I have a bunch of videos up on You Tube, and most of them are about bowl turning. I do consider a scraper to be the most efficient tool for roughing out bowls, The cupped type cutters on the Hunter tool are supposed to work really well, but I don't have any. You need to learn how to use gouges for bowl turning. I do prefer a shear scrape, one video dedicated to that, for my finish cut. Most of the flat carbide scrapers are on square shafts, and they are not good for shear scraping. Then there is sanding. Do find a local club, huge information resource, and mentors. For chucks, I use Vicmark. I believe the others work fine, but don't have experience with them. For tools, I prefer the Thompson, which are V10 metal, and the D Way, which are M42 high speed steel. They do cost a bit more, but they are worth it. For sharpening system, the Oneway Wolverine set up is the most popular. For a grinder, many use the Rikon 3 inch slow speed 1/2 hp grinder. That is a bit underpowered for me, and I got the 1 hp model. There are lots of variations.

robo hippy
 
Redfish mentioned that he will be using an 8"vs grinder; I'm guessing with AO wheels. Would the AO wheels be a problem taking advantage of the PM steel in the pem ium gouges?
 
Redfish said:
Based on the comments here I'm probably going to order a talon. I have a smaller PSI chuck (lever style) but I need something stronger like the talon for these heavier items.
Click to expand...
Depending on the psi chuck you have the talon may not be any “stronger”. There are medium and small utility lever styles, the medium is about the same size as a talon. Check chuck dia to understand what you are evaluating. Yes the talon is a better chuck and a key type is easier to work with vs levers, but the lever type will do the same job.
 
Mike Zip Hamilton said:
Would the AO wheels be a problem taking advantage of the PM steel in the pem ium gouges?
Click to expand...
Nope, not really. the AO wheels might wear down faster and thus need more frequent dressing (and re-adjustments of jigs to compensate for shrinking wheel diameter) but they'll grind just fine even the I think it was PM10 steel (Hardest steel I have is from a thompson fluteless gouge) but if you are not sharpening (and turning) all that frequently, AO wheels might last quite a while// But TBH I do prefer the 180 grit CBN I have on mine (on the right side) over the AO Wheel I have on the left side of my grinder..(I also do some grinding of carbon steel - plane blades and the like, that are not good for CBN wheels)
 
Redfish,

You've received excellent advice and explanations above, so I won't add any 2 cents. I will, however, make 2 off-topic suggestions for your turning future.

First, find the closest AAW affiliate clubs (woodturner.org, click on "Chapters" and then "find a"). They can provide an immensely beneficial resource for learning. With the help of a mentor from the club, you will progress much faster than on your own, and can get help with the bazillion little issues you will encounter.

Second, while both of your lathes will be good for starting your kids, you will shortly find the Harbor Freight lathe getting in the way of your needs, desires, and progress. I understand your budgetary constraints. My suggestion is that you start keeping your eyes open for a good condition, used lathe from one of the major manufacturers in a 12-16" size. (I don't want to start the forum members on a lengthy debate about what brand they like or would suggest for you, but just get you started thinking and looking.) See if those nearby AAW clubs have a classified section on their web site or in their newsletter to keep an eye on. Start monitoring Craigslist in your area. Save your pennies. When you feel like you're nearly ready to pull the trigger, get the word out to the clubs, and you may be surprised to find way more lathe in your price range than you expected.
 
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