Metal Spinning

[DeanGThomas]

Greetings one and all.

I've been asked to create a new Advent wreath for our congregation and I need some advice. Design is pretty well established, and the turning itself is not a problem.

The wreath is to have four beeswax candles around the perimeter of the wreath, 3" pillars, 10" tall. My personal challenge is to create a stable environment for the candles where we can avoid wax spillage and avoid fire hazard status.

Current thought is to put the candles into a 3" wide, 1" deep well with upsloping wings to contain any drippage that might occur. I think that I want to line those wells with metal--maybe a soft brass??-- so that the wax will both be contained (and off the carpet!) and will not stain or penetrate the wooden base. An Aussie turning friend says that it's a law there that any candle holder must either be of an unburnable substance, or must be lined with an unburnable substance. He says they're pretty insistent on compliance.

My questions:

1. Can I "spin" the metal down into the 'well' of this base?
2. Or, do I have to make a negative version of the 'well' and "spin" the metal over that?
3. What tools do I use to do this spinning?
4. Can this be done on a standard wood lathe? We're not talking heavy duty metal here, nor are we talking thick or stiff metal.
5. Resources for my education in this area??

I don't want to reinvent the proverbial wheel here, but I have NO idea as to what to use or how it should work. I don't know any machinists that I can ask, either. The one guy that I know has retired and is travelling most of the time, plus he was never "a lathe man" (his words), plus he lives 800 miles away!

Any help I can get will be appreciated! Books, videos, teleconference, mentoring--ANY help!!

 

[n7bsn]

Dean, go to Highland Hardware (among others). They sell the Sorby tools, parts and video for light metal spinning (on a wood lathe).
Link

Of course serious metal spinners have more, ah serious setups. One friend used to sell 14 gauge steel spun bowls, about 8 inches in diameter. The spinning lathe this took, was, well, large

TTFN
Ralph

 

[Vernon Oberle]

Candle Liners

Penn State (PSI) sells the candle holder inserts in sets of 3 and they are a whole lot cheaper than buying metal spinning tools. Oops I'm sorry I spoiled your chance to buy a new tool. I personally never seem to need a reason.

Vernon

 

[DeanGThomas]

Vernon,

You may have missed the part about the insert needing to hold a THREE INCH WIDE CANDLE.

I can't find anything on their website about that. Maybe I missed it. I'll check their paper catalog after dinner.

I have seen their inserts, but the ones I saw were for 3/4" diameter, standard tapers. Like at Craft Supply in Utah-- CLICK HERE!! Not big enough by far.

 

[laymarcrafts]

Dean in the Links Section of my Web Site there is a section headed Hints Tips and Techniques.

Here you will find Links to a number of Sites on Metal Spinning including a Tutorial which should help you with your project.

http://www.laymar-crafts.co.uk

Richard

 

[john lucas]

You can do metal spinning but you have to have the tools, tool rest, and a fair amount of learning curve to succeed. OK it's not that hard but it's not something you do overnight.
My suggestion is to "raise" the metal or hammer it. Simply turn the negative shape you need in some hardwood and then hammer the metal down into the wood. I use a standard ballpeen hammer. if it's thin metal you might succeed fairly easily. If it's heavier you will probably have to anneal it several times depending on the shape you need to achieve. The brass and copper will work harden and will tear if you keep trying to force it into shape.
to anneal non ferous metals like brass and copper you heat it red hot and quench it. (Exactly the procedure you use to harden steel) Annealing the brass will make it soft so you can hammer it into shape some more. Do it slowly and you should succeed.
The hammered surface looks pretty good but if you want really shiny then you need to use thicker material and hammer it as smooth as possible and then sand away all the hammer marks. Takes a lot of patience and ideallly several different shaped hammers.

 

[n7bsn]

There's nothing wrong with John's advice, well, except for using a ballpeen. That and the process he describes is "sinking" not "raising"

The problem with using a ballpeen is the default shape of the head (warning, bad ASCII art) It looks like this

. ----
/ ..... \

And those sharp corners leave deep nicks in the metal. Which is why all my sinking harmers have reground heads to slightly dome shaped heads

If you use the ball, you get dozens of dimples in the metal, that are again hard to get out. You can flatten out the ball, but I find it's much simplier to rework the head.

Getting them out takes hours and hours of planishing, followed by sanding and then buffing. A long drawn out process.

As for a sinking base, I have found that good old dry Hemlock or DougFir works just fine, my current sinking stump is over 15 years old and still going strong, it has seen literally hunderds of items hammered out over the years (and all of 16 or 14 gauge steel).

Raising, invovles driving the metal over a large object, and actually thickens the metal (a little) while sinking does thin the metal.

Personally, I've also done a little metal spinning, and a lot of metal sinking and raising. I would make these via spinning.

An example of raising a metal object
An article on making a sinking stump
(no none of these are mine, and the workmenship is much better then I do)

TTFN
Ralph

 

[Ken Grunke]

Dean, I'm not very well qualified to answer questions about metal spinning as I haven't tried it yet--but I've done research on the process since my main woodturning lathe was actually a metalspinning lathe in a former life.
I do know that most spinning is done over a male form and the learning curve is a bit high, as John Lucas mentions. If you want to learn the craft, more power to you but if you just need to get the job done, you should be able to find the forms you need ready-made without too much difficulty. I'd look at a "Dollar Store" or any liquidation store in the kitchenware and housewares sections, for metal forms that just might fit the bill, or need a little modification such as cutting cutting down to size or minor reforming. That's my 2 cents of advice, and may not be worth much more than that

 

[john lucas]

Thanks for the correction Ralph. I was at work and typing fast. I've used real metal working hammers while in class but I don't have those at home so I just use my ballpeen. Not as pretty as you say but it does work.

 

[John Nicholas]

Candle Wax

Dean,

Try a liturgical catalog such as Almy's. Instead of actual candles, use some oil burning candles. No wax to drip. Oil to replace not candles.

Even the ladies that replace the candles agree that oil is cheaper than candles and cleaning up the wax. This concept was sold by the torch bearers.

John

 

[DeanGThomas]

Instead of actual candles, use some oil burning candles.

Don't I know it! Been trying to get 'em to spring for the $$ to do it right. Not a priority. They at least got 3" pillars in wax, looking to replace them in a year or two with oil candles instead. At least this way we only have to invent this wheel/wreath once. Sigh.

That certainly would have been the easy way.

 

[Hawaii Turner]

Yahoo groups

Dean,
Go to Yahoogroups.com and do a search for Metal Spinning. They have an excellent forum of pro. spinners and you can either learn the craft, or ask someone if they already make something like what you need. OTOH, I was in Ace Hardware today, and I saw some SS cups that might be 3" in dia. I can check tomorrow if there isn't an Ace near you.
Aloha, Doug :cool2:

 

[DeanGThomas]

Hey Doug,

Appreciate the tip, but just a cup won't be enough. It needs to have some wings to catch drippage, too. I may venture out, though, just to get out of the house today. :cool2:

 

[Hawaii Turner]

Would glass work?

Dean, check these out if they might work for you.
http://www.candle4less.com/Column-holder-glass.pr.1235.htm
or these
http://www.candle4less.com/Clear-glass-container-candle.pr.708.htm
Doug

 

[mkart]

ASL Pewter

Dean,
Check out Thomas Hooper with aslpewter.com . He is a full time metal spinner and is very willing to talk to you. He has a shop in Louisiana, MO near Clarksville. I had him in for a demonstration last Sunday at our meeting. He made several tankards and shot glasses on a jet 16-42. He will even sell you the metal blanks you need. From his demonstration I would say you need to make them on a positive form, not sink them into a negative form. Sounds like a lot of fun trying either way.

Matt

 

[Bud]

Dean,
We had Dave Hout demonstrate at our club a few years ago, and one of the things he does is metal spinning. The Carolina Mountain turners had him and did a good write up about his demo. Check it at: http://www.carolinamountainwoodturners.org/hout/hout2.html

If you're not spinning a show piece it's not too difficult as I remember.

Bud S.

 

[ed thomas]

Dean:

Candle cups and holders are routine for blacksmiths. Try this link:

http://www.bamsite.org/

Call any one of the contacts or members and you should get some help. The combination of turned wood and forged iron can be stunning.

In most cases the blacksmiths are hobbyists and will happily swap items rather than money. The range of skill is rather wide, so try to get a picture of what they are capable of before you commit. Look for one close to you and visit their shop.

I'm a blacksmith by trade (which means my wife makes the money and I spend all day in the shop). I also like to turn wood so I stay in touch with an AAW club close by and attend some meetings and demos. Those guys really like having a blacksmith as a resource. And I learn a lot about iron by looking at what they (you) do with wood.

Ed

 

[robert davis]

dean have you considered glass inserts? you can buy all kinds sizes and shapes.however the oil
'candle" sounds like a winner

 

[DeanGThomas]

dean have you considered glass inserts? you can buy all kinds sizes and shapes.

I'm working with an existing design that is being modified. Glass won't work. The ones that were suggested by someone else are nice looking, but very unstable for the application involved. These candles are going to be placed on a 24" circle which will in turn be placed on a 48" pole and put in the sanctuary area, near the altar of a liturgical church. That means that we're talking traffic during the entirety of the service. What precipitated this was the resounding crash of the Paschal candle off the old set-up.

however the oil "candle" sounds like a winner

You betcha. Of COURSE it would be a winner!!!

Now then, ever worked with a committee? Ever worked with a committee that didn't want to spring for the money necessary to do a job in the way you think is the "right" way? In the way that they acknowledge is the preferred way, "but there just isn't any money in the budget right now and that just is not a priority..."

So, I don't want to just throw my hands in the air and tell 'em to solve it themselves. Not nice, and not the way I normally "play". I was able to get them to commit to doing this in the next 1 or 2 years. So, I have a way to make new wax candles work for now, and replace them directly with minimal work when the time comes.

Utilitarian woodcraft by committee. OY!

Would that I had the bucks. I'd just do it and have it right and safe the first time. Sigh.

 

[robert davis]

dean ..what you need is a miracle

 

[Myrel Willeford]

This was a DIY show here is the link. It looked like it is not too hard.

http://www.diynetwork.com/diy/wt_tools_techniques/article/0,2025,DIY_14436_3552620,00.html

 

[DeanGThomas]

dean ..what you need is a miracle

You're a hoot, friend! And closer than I want to admit!

I'm told that at least one more person has been added to the "committee", a person who has multiple opinions on everything, but who cannot make decisions! YOY! Help me, Lord.

And we all know that the camel is a horse designed by a committee, right???

 

[TerryTynan]

metal spinning video

You can view a free metal spinning movie at

www.metalspinningworkshop.com

On the home page: click on the movie link.

Metal spinning is quickly becoming a craft which many wood turners are seeking to explore, if you own a wood lathe, a quick change of the tool post along with a simple spinning tool and cutter you pretty much have all you need.

I have written and produced two metal spinning DVD's which have helped many craftsmen and wood turners learn the technique. After learning the basics many woodturners are now marrying the two mediums of wood and metal together into some spectacular objects.

 

[DeanGThomas]

Small correction.

You can view a free metal spinning movie at

www.metalspinning.com

Oops! Not quite. Good that you had the right one in your sig block!!

Nice movie, Terry. If the video is anything like the sample, it has to be good. You make it look really easy. I might have to buy that video next year.

The good news (for me!!) is that things are going to turn out JUST RIGHT and I won't have to do the metal inserts. YAY for that.

Hope to have pix to share within the week. Well, HAVE to have pix to share before 12/3 which is the first Sunday of Advent when this project is revealed.

 

[john lucas]

I must be doing something wrong. I can't find the video.

 

[Martin Braun]

I must be doing something wrong. I can't find the video.

it happens to be at www.metalspinningworkshop.com

then click on "Click here to see low resolution Movie Sample"

It's really quite a nice little video snippet.

Now to everybody - You guys helped push me down the slippery slope of woodturning, then it was down the slope of alabaster turning, now I feel the force of gravity pulling me to get into metal spinning! Luckily it doesn't appear to require much in the way of tooling, or it would be curtains for my pocket book. Time to go make out my Christmas list.

 

[TerryTynan]

Thanks John I cant get my own website address correct.

www.metalspinningworkshop.com

It is really easy to set up your turning lathe and it is affordable.To change your T rest to a spinning rest might be $50.00 if you pay someone, the spinning tools maybe $5.00 in steel rod ( you have to cut and grind them to shape ) turn your own handles. Before you know it you can put pewter inserts into your salad bowls or highly polished lids from silver. I have been sent photos from some well known turners who have now put the two crafts together and the work is great

 

[Bryant]

You make it look very easy in that clip. You have also solved a problem for me. I was looking for the best way to make ashtray inserts and now I've found my answer. Thank you.

Bryant

 

[john lucas]

Terry Thanks for the link. I have been wanting to learn metal spinning for about 5 or 6 years now. I've sent for a lot of information, gone to a few demos, and watched whatever videos I can find. I'm ready. My secretary's husband works for a commercial metal spinning factory here In Cookeville so I have decided that over Christmas break I will make the tools rest and some tools and give it a try. I'll get her husband to come over and tell me what I''m doing wrong because I'm sure it's not as simple as it looks.

 

[lumpy]

I realize the problem has been solved but.......several years ago I made an advent wreath for our church and was faced with the same problem, I used the domed end from some used diesel engine oil filters, cut them off with a large pipe cutter, painted them, and screwed them into place. Worked like a charm!
Brad

 

[Mr. Don]

Wreath

:cool2: Dean.....sounds to me that no matter how much work and sweat you put yourself through, and no matter how good it comes out, it will NEVER be good enough for the "committee". Save yourself a case of ulcers and sleepless nights and ultimate disappointment.....change churches or let someone else try to deal with this problem!!! There is such a thing as biting off more than you can chew!!! (unless you are controlled by your pride!!)

 

[DeanGThomas]

The committee has been conquered and we are in one accord. Not the Honda type.

Oil type candles are purchased, no metal inserts or wax candles to be used.

Work is well under way and progressing nicely. In fact, I'm in between steps right now on the finishing of my "holly" leaves (made from maple, actually). Everyone agreed that we did not want to do realistic, but rather more abstract. We presented a couple of variations in design and in colors, and we're good to build. It'll get done this week for first time use next Sunday morning.

Hey, this is good. It ain't midnight the night before it's due with folks second guessing or still trying to decide the correct size.

 

[Chris Wright]

Terry's video(s)

For those looking to learn metal spinning, definitely give it a try. With Terry's help I have been learning how to spin over the last few months and it's very fun. The initial outlay is very reasonable (basically a tool rest & pins and parts for tools) and while there is a learning curve, Terry's videos are outstanding. The clip on his website is just touching the surface. His first video I got goes over making the tools as well as metal selection and the basics to turning.

DO NOT buy the Highland Hardware metal spinning set. I did and regret it as the set is close to worthless for projects over 2"-3" in diameter. That and for the same price I paid for the "mini" 4 piece Sorby set, I was able to make 8 full size tools of various shapes and diameters, following Terry's instructions.

If you really want to see metal spinning at it's finest and be inspired to try it, check out www.terrytynan.com and go through the how it's made section.

Hope this saves at least one turner from going down the wrong (and expensive) track...

Chris