How do you mount your large green blanks on the lathe? I have always used my oneway big bite spur drive and tailstock support, with the bowl mounted towards the headstock and the foot towards the tailstock. Shaping the bowl is easy enough, but turning it around to mount in my stronghold chuck is not! I have the #4 Oneway jaws, but turning around a blank that weighs over 50lbs is next to impossible to perform without there being significant eccentricity when remounted. While coring a big 13x10" deep bowl I had a catch with the McNaughton which sent the blank flying across my shop. I need a better solution for large blanks. I've considered using a glue block and parting it off when complete, but how would one accomplish this? What do you do in this situation? I'm thinking about using CA glue and a big glueblock, utilizing a 3" electric planer to smooth out a spot to mount the glueblock and faceplate. But wondering how to accomplish this in a safe fashion. I want to know how others take on this mounting.
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mounting large turnings on the lathe
- Thread starter Nate Hawkes
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You could use a faceplate and glue block. I use 6" dovetail jaws for a bowl that size. If you can, especially when using the McNaughton system, make your tenon at least 40 percent of the diameter of your bowl.
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Consider using a faceplate. On a bowl that big you should be able to incorporate the faceplate mounting tenon in the blank.
I use a faceplate on most hollow forms.
Turn a tenon larger diameter than your faceplate by 1/2 to 1” and 1/4” taller than the screw length sticking through your faceplate.
This size lets to drive screws into wet wood without splitting out the edge and screws will open up the wood a little bit deeper that they ar long but not a 1/4”
Slightly concave the surface of the tenon. This ensures the faceplate won’t rock and the outer edge of the faceplate makes nice contact.
I use a pencil to draw circles and use those to line up the faceplate nicely
You can also turn a center tenon the diameter of the faceplate threads and use it to line up the threads. This tenon can keep the faceplate from screwing on.
Here is a video clip from a demo where I mount a faceplate on a hollow form to be.
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I do 20-25 inch bowls regularly. I core whenever possible. I start with a oneway 6 in faceplate attached to the blank face (future bowl hollow side) using the tailstock work the outside of the bowl blank till satisfied and turn the tenon at the same time. Ensure the center point of the tenon is well marked for later use. For blanks this large I use #5 0r #6 stronghold jaws. Turn blank around, core and wait about 1 year to finish (bummer but necessary) Realize that the bowl blank will warp ,maybe even go oval. the second turning will require rounding the tenon again hence the well marked center point I jam chuck the bowl blank with the tenon on the tailstock side re-round the tenon, reverse the blank using a chuck now and turn a bowl. Hope this is understandable and helps. Ray
For getting big stuff onto the lathe, I use a hoist. Very simple, very cheap and works a treat.
This picture of the hoist was a proof of concept with my new hoist. The hoist is mounted on one of the roof girders on a sliding rail, which came off a around the world sailing boat.
As my lathe is on wheels, I just locate it under the timber and mount it, then for turning around I use the hoist again and again until the blank is small enough for me to handle.
I also use Vicmarc Faceplate rings, there are four sizes, they are light but very strong.
This picture of the hoist was a proof of concept with my new hoist. The hoist is mounted on one of the roof girders on a sliding rail, which came off a around the world sailing boat.
As my lathe is on wheels, I just locate it under the timber and mount it, then for turning around I use the hoist again and again until the blank is small enough for me to handle.
I also use Vicmarc Faceplate rings, there are four sizes, they are light but very strong.
I'd agree with the faceplate users for the mount, and some sort of ground-based hoist to lift. There are versions of engine lifts you could utilize. I'd not suggest ceiling mounted hoists, nearly all garage roof framing (such as wood trusses or hand framed rafters and joists) is not built to handle the concentrated loads of a hoist system and the loads they lift, keep the weight on the ground with something like this-
They have lifting straps shown in the similar hoist product catagory.
And for weight like this, I would never consider a glue joint, CA or wood glue. CA easily fractures, and with moist wood regular wood glue would not likely cure properly.
They have lifting straps shown in the similar hoist product catagory.
And for weight like this, I would never consider a glue joint, CA or wood glue. CA easily fractures, and with moist wood regular wood glue would not likely cure properly.
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Heavy blanks can be a challenge to get mounted singlehandedly, but I've discovered a couple tricks that make it easier. I have a couple choices of drive options available: An Elio drive and a big spur drive that fits into my 50mm chuck jaws. I have no recollection of who made the spur drive or where I got it, but it tends to get more use because the Elio requires use of an Allen key to bury the pointed machine screws. (I keep thinking I should replace them with pointed flange bolts and keep the proper size Gear Wrench handy)
For either use of either drive, I start by choosing a center point. Big blanks are too heavy to try to find a balance point, so it's estimated, or if the size of the piece dictates it, the center point is dictated by measurement. It can be on the cut face or the bark side, you just have to start somewhere. It can always be changed/adjusted later. I use a Forstner bit to drill into the blank a bit. This not only provides a solid grip point, but provides a shoulder to sort of "hang" the blank on the drive point, while the other hand brings up the tailstock.
As far as your piece not running true when you flip it around, are you making a random size tenon? I used to see chuck jaws as having a range of allowable sizes, which is true, but to flip a piece and have it run true, (or very close) the tenon has to be cut to a size that is very close to being too small. (chuck jaws nearly closed up completely) Larger sized tenons depend on the corners of the jaws, and varying density of the wood, they bite in unevenly and grip it off-center.
I use a template to accurately mark the tenon size. I cut close to the line, creating a rough tenon. I continue shaping and refining the bowl from the bottom to the top of rim. Before I remove it, I make the final cuts on the tenon. With a sharp spindle gouge, I cut the line with a slight dovetail angle, and cut a flat shoulder flat to meet it. Usually when I flip a piece, I tighten the jaws just enough to hold it, then I bring up the tailstock (with a scrap between) to provide some pressure. I lock the spindle and spin the blank in the chuck just slightly to make sure there is good solid contact between the shoulder and jaw faces, and then tighten the chuck.
For either use of either drive, I start by choosing a center point. Big blanks are too heavy to try to find a balance point, so it's estimated, or if the size of the piece dictates it, the center point is dictated by measurement. It can be on the cut face or the bark side, you just have to start somewhere. It can always be changed/adjusted later. I use a Forstner bit to drill into the blank a bit. This not only provides a solid grip point, but provides a shoulder to sort of "hang" the blank on the drive point, while the other hand brings up the tailstock.
As far as your piece not running true when you flip it around, are you making a random size tenon? I used to see chuck jaws as having a range of allowable sizes, which is true, but to flip a piece and have it run true, (or very close) the tenon has to be cut to a size that is very close to being too small. (chuck jaws nearly closed up completely) Larger sized tenons depend on the corners of the jaws, and varying density of the wood, they bite in unevenly and grip it off-center.
I use a template to accurately mark the tenon size. I cut close to the line, creating a rough tenon. I continue shaping and refining the bowl from the bottom to the top of rim. Before I remove it, I make the final cuts on the tenon. With a sharp spindle gouge, I cut the line with a slight dovetail angle, and cut a flat shoulder flat to meet it. Usually when I flip a piece, I tighten the jaws just enough to hold it, then I bring up the tailstock (with a scrap between) to provide some pressure. I lock the spindle and spin the blank in the chuck just slightly to make sure there is good solid contact between the shoulder and jaw faces, and then tighten the chuck.
Your description of the problem tells me the tenon is not properly seated into the chuck, and the large blank comes out of the chuck when coring. #4 Stronghold profiled jaws expand to 5-3/4", sufficient for coring a 13"x10" blank. Profiled jaws grip extremely well when expanded (vs dovetail or serrated). I can think of 2 very cheap things to help with seating the tenon in the chuck. 1) Are you using the TS livecenter point in the blank center hole to locate and then seat the tenon shoulder to the chuck jaws? This doesn't help lift the blank, but will ensure it is properly seated.
2) To lift the blank, place a small inner-tube under the blank (I use a small one from HF (https://www.harborfreight.com/13-in-inner-tube-with-straight-stem-69439.html). For $7 it's worth a try. With an air chuck with lever and bleed valve (similar to this https://www.harborfreight.com/dual-head-air-chuck-inflator-with-dial-gauge-63544.html) height of the blank is easily controlled.
2) To lift the blank, place a small inner-tube under the blank (I use a small one from HF (https://www.harborfreight.com/13-in-inner-tube-with-straight-stem-69439.html). For $7 it's worth a try. With an air chuck with lever and bleed valve (similar to this https://www.harborfreight.com/dual-head-air-chuck-inflator-with-dial-gauge-63544.html) height of the blank is easily controlled.
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I was a little leery of buying the #5 jaws; I worried the aluminum jaws wouldn't hold sufficiently. I have the profiled, serrated jaws now, which seem to compress the tenon too much. The blank was likely 80lbs or more to start, just too heavy for the #3 jaws to hold the tenon. I was glad to be outside the line of fire. I don't leave enough for an expanding hold; I always felt like it was a weaker hold.
I was using the tailstock to center the blank when reversing it, and kept the tailstock support for as much of the hollowing as possible. I gave up on the bowl after a big catch made the bottom unfixable. Life is too short to turn crappy wood after all. Chalk that up to learning curve. I have had problems coring big bowls before, because I didn't want to deal with the faceplate/glueblock method. Now it's time to learn some basic skills that I've never mastered.
I don't predrill the center pin. This lets me adjust the blank's orientation with the tailstock if I need to. I love using the big bite. I've never had a piece come off or get loose with it. I do chisel off the bark to get a good grip with it. But I quit using faceplates after buying it. Also, I wait until the bowl is absolutely finished to turn away the mark from the live center, so that I can align it right after finishing the inside.
I have been less than diligent about ensuring the tenon is close to the size of the closed chuck jaws. I know that it grips better this way. I am about to purchase the #5 jaws to increase my flexibility. I need to come up with a way to remove the stuck screws on my chuck jaws. I don't like having to change jaws and don't feel like buying another chuck; I have 4 nova chucks and 2 strongholds. It may be time to fork over some cash for another chuck body.
I actually bought a hoist to lift big blanks but it wasn't high enough to support the blank completely. I need to figure out a better way to hang the hoist from a beam above the lathe. For the bowl in question, I had my neighbor help mount the blank I was mounting. I've given up on turning it, as it developed some serious cracks. I don't like repairing deep cracks unless I really have to.
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Big pieces present a couple of cracking challenges.
1. Absolute wood movement is larger If a 10” bowl is going to shrink a 1/2 inch in one direction a 20” bowl will shrink 1”
Even wall thickness and nice curves become more important.
2. the time on the lathe will be a lot longer. If it takes you 30 minutes to rough turn a 10” bowl it will likely take you 90-120 minutes to rough turn a 20” bowl.
Need to keep the wood from drying on the lathe. Plant mister to keep it wet. Wrap in plastic if you stop for any reason.
The tree had been on the ground since May, so it had already lost a lot of moisture. I did wrap it in a bag between turning the outside and inside. It took a few hours to hog out the inside, but it moved so much it was a lost cause. The drying checks were not visible at first. It wasn't even that large of a blank, just very heavy. It was kind of tragic; about half the bowl was burl figure. Just too far cracked to be worth fixing.
It depends on what you mean by "big". For me, I never turn over about 14 inches since there is a very small market for sizes over that. The biggest one I ever turned came off the lathe at 22 inch diameter. I used a 6 inch face plate for that one. For all the rest, I drill a recess to expand into with my chuck jaws, and I use Vicmark exclusively. I do not like to use the tailstock when turning bowls, and with 14 inch sized blanks, I have never had one come off the lathe, at least not yet. The problem with the spur drive use is that it likes to spin out. I have seen huge spur drives, and one that looked like a porcupine, with a bunch of spikes, and they drive very well. I just find the drilled recess to work much more easily. I use a 2 5/8 inch diameter forstner bit to fit my bigger Vicmark chuck jaws.
robo hippy
robo hippy
I also have a sliding rail with chain hoist. I have put more than 150lbs of wet wood onto the lathe without help. You can use any method you chose to attach the piece to the headstock and tailstock. I use a faceplate, screw, glue block, or cup drives, depending on the needs of the project. I put a 20" diameter x 24" long wet log on cup centers and kept driving the tailstock in as things loosened up. Ended up with the cups an inch into both ends of the log but safely turned it. When it comes time to put a chuck on the tenon and flip the blank around, it is supported with the hoist and spins around with two fingers.
The #5 AL profiled jaws I have work just fine. I’ve used them for blanks as large as 15” dia x 20” long, hollowing without TS support. I’ve cored 15” bowls using them. 15” is as big as I can go inboard (16” swing).
Are your other jaws serrated or profiled, they are different. Serrated will not hold as well expanded as the profiled. Both designs are designed to compress the tenon with the serrations or teeth inside the jaws. The teeth marks realign the work if removed from the chuck, if you keep the same “clocking” (all of my chucks have a “clock mark” where jaws meet, and I mark the tenon to get correct orientation for rechucking).
A thing to look for using either serrated or profiled is that the bottom of the tenon does NOT land on the upward slope of a serration - this will push the tenon shoulder off the top of the jaws, had it happen a few times until I figured out the problem. Also, the outer bottom of the tenon needs to be the same distance around the OD of the tenon, so that a serration is not touching only part of the tenon.
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All my jaws are profiled. I kind of wish I'd started with Vicmarc chucks and smooth jaws, but the stronghold chucks work quite well. Good to hear that the #5 jaws have worked well for you. I should have mine sometime next week, and have a couple nice chunks of elm ready to try them out. And a nice piece of burl!
My lathe has a sliding headstock. I purchased a lift table from Harbor Freight, remove tailstock and banjo, slide headstock to the end of lathe and position wood w/faceplate on spindle. Takes a little practice but once you get the hang of it its really easy. When not used for mounting blanks comes in handy as a small table for use on other projects.
For those wanting to use glue blocks, particularly with wet wood. Lyle Jamieson is a big glue block proponent. He doesnt like chucks.
View: https://youtu.be/ZBMj1egdwCM?si=afqfyq0wspCO-iGY
A friend turns most of his large bowls the way he was taught 40 years ago - glue block with a face plate.
Sometimes he mounts the top with the face plate, turns the outside and instead of a glue block he makes a flat bottom on the foot then uses double-sided woodturners tape (from Woodcraft) to hold the bottom to the face plate to turn the inside. Said he has never had one come loose - the problem is more in getting the face plate off the piece.
He made a 16" maple bowl for me that way.
BTW, we sometimes use the same tape to hold steel and other metals on the milling machine. Holds well. (but since the tape may be a tiny bit compressible I wouldn't use it for precision work on small pieces.)
JKJ
Sometimes he mounts the top with the face plate, turns the outside and instead of a glue block he makes a flat bottom on the foot then uses double-sided woodturners tape (from Woodcraft) to hold the bottom to the face plate to turn the inside. Said he has never had one come loose - the problem is more in getting the face plate off the piece.
He made a 16" maple bowl for me that way.
BTW, we sometimes use the same tape to hold steel and other metals on the milling machine. Holds well. (but since the tape may be a tiny bit compressible I wouldn't use it for precision work on small pieces.)
JKJ
It won't have lost much moisture since May, I suspect. I have trees that have been down for 2+ years and they are still pretty green.
I monitor moisture by weight. I've had some chunks that were not dry until over 10 years. The size and species makes all the difference. Hard wood with pores full of tyloses? Prepare for patience.
That's one reason I process log sections into blanks to dry. Do this regularly and you have a constant supply of good, dry wood.
JKJ
That's one reason I process log sections into blanks to dry. Do this regularly and you have a constant supply of good, dry wood.
JKJ
I've been mostly turning dry blanks. Some I've had for well over a decade, some even 15 years. I prefer turning bowls super wet and allowing them to warp, but I've been out of the game of word-of-mouth wood scores. I used to turn semi-production one-off bowls. I usually made a few bowls for property owners whose trees came down in a storm, or they added onto their house and had to take out a favorite tree, for example. I need to make friends with a tree surgeon, right after I get my dust cyclone mounted. So much to do, so little time.
Yeah it was pretty wet still, but had dried enough to get surface checks on the ends of the log. I've sealed the ends with PVA sealer that I had on hand.
If practical, slice off the checks. I like to make thin slices then bend them to see if I've gotten below the depth of the checks. (This is a LOT easier on a bandsaw with wood that can sit flat on the table.) The wood can have invisible cracks
If the thin slice breaks, I often hold it up to the wood and mark the break. Repeat. When I finally hit consistently good wood I seal that end immediately.
Cutting up into smaller blanks has another advantage - cracks on one section may be shallower than those on another.
Another thing I do: after sealed blanks are put up to dry I inspect them after a week or two and see if any new checks/cracks have developed. If so, slice off more end grain and reseal. (I do the same for side grain - for example developing cracks are often seen on a side of a blank of dogwood that has both heartwood and sapwood (since they have much different shrinkage.)
For the things I like to turn, I'd rather have smaller pieces of good wood than larger pieces with cracks. That's just me. Some people I know love cracks and splits.
JKJ
I hate cracks and splits, unless the wood is super important to someone. I have filled some bark inclusions with a variety of materials, but I don't normally "fix" cracks other than to put a little CA near the bark if it's a natural edge bowl. Too much chance for the crack to increase with the constant humidity increase/decrease with using the bowl. The next blank I'm cutting down from 14" to 12" and still might lose a little diameter from a crack/check.
RE the log itself; it was very difficult to cut cookies off the log; the way it was sitting my bar kept pinching even when using wedges in the cut. I wish I hadn't sold my big chainsaw. I had an 084av unitil recently. I needed to take away the temptation to get big wood. My back can't handle loading 200lbs pieces anymore. But man oh man this particular tree would've been a cinch to cut with a 42" bar.
I often mount blanks that weigh 250 - 300lbs. I use a hoist mounted on a steel beam that runs across my shop and over the lathe. I'm not a fan of screwed on faceplates since the ends of my pieces are never square/true with the rest of the piece or the other end and I may decide to reposition a piece as I rough it out. I use a faceplate BUT I have three pointed steel bolts that I screw into the piece after I get it into position - see pic. I drill a hole for my 1 1/8" spur drive but it's really there just to help me align the piece while it's hanging from the hoist. Once I bring the tail stock up with a cone center and tighten it up against the headstock I tighten the three screws into the wood about 1/2" deep then lock them down with the nuts. If I decide to reposition a piece I can move the tail stock end and then retighten the screws to account for the shift. Never had one slip on me with this setup.
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Nate, I too can't use a floor hoist to mount big blanks: my lathe stand goes too close to the floor, such that there is not enough clearance for the hoist to go under the lathe. So, I put a pulley hoist (on a rail) on the ceiling by mounting the rail on a 2x8 that spans four roof trusses (on 16" centres) to spread the load. I once used it to lift a 300 lb. belt sander onto its stand, and the ceiling didn't even sigh, so I don't worry about stressing the trusses when using it for anything I am lifting onto my lathe. You will want to ask someone who can assess your roof framing before doing this, but it should work if the mounting plate spans several trusses or joists, as the case may be.
I did the same thing when I needed to lift the front of a heavy 4-wheeler to work on the underside. My 2x8 spanned three trusses on my shop porch, was enough.
If the roof truss strength/accessibility is not an option, what a friend did in his shop might be.
I cut a steel i-beam from my stock long enough to span the the (fairly narrow) room where he does his turning. Cut steel heavy steel posts, mounted vertically, fastened to the floor with plates and to the walls with big brackets welded from large angle iron (4x4?). Put the horizontal i-beam on top the posts and fastened with bolts. Put an electric hoist with wheels that can easily be moved anywhere down the i-beam. So easy to operate - push a button.
He used it to position, lift, and move a huge wood sculpture that probably weighed 3-400 lbs. He hasn't used it yet for wood blanks but positioned it in the room so one end is close to the headstock end of the lathe.
I have steel, welders, cutting equipment etc, but any metal fab shop or metal building company could easily build and install something. It wouldn't be free but if turning large might be worth it.
Or if you have a big enough door you might do what Lissi Oland did (1:46 in this video). When I visited I was amazed at the scale of her work.
JKJ
Luckily I have a 6x6 over the lathe that was installed by a previous owner to lift engines; it had been someone's hobby auto shop before I bought it. The beam distributes weight over a double header, so I'm not terribly worried about a couple hundred pounds max. I don't plan on turning anything above about 15"; as already stated, there isn't a huge market for really big bowls. A deep 15" bowl blank might be only 100lbs but that is plenty heavy. I don't turn hollow forms. Maybe another ten or fifteen years of turning and I'll get into it.