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Open flute vs closed flute

john lucas

john lucas

AAW Forum Expert
Joined
Apr 26, 2004
Messages
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Location
Cookeville, TN
I'm trying to answer a question on what is considered an open flute or closed flute. To me it's very confusing and the answers don't really make sense which is probably why this question comes up. I don't want to influence it by posting what I think it should be. PleaseTell me what you think it means and how you would teach that concept to a student. Or is it even relevant.
 
Don't think I've ever contemplated open vs closed flute, John......or, even heard of it......but, you are making me zero in on the general concept right now! :D.....you did make me try searching to see exactly what you're talking about. I did find a couple of images that might help to explain the differences:
wp76485c27_06.png

Here's another:
wp198ec8c7_06.png

More:
wpeb6c471b_06.png

Etc:
wp55ad6675_06.png

I'll add to this illustration, that "rotation" is something that greatly helps with control when negotiating an inside curve.....here -->)......not necessarily here -->(

Near as I can figure, the open flute concept applies more to a side ground gouge, while the closed flute concept more applies to a traditional ground gouge. As you know, I've been experimenting with the traditional grind quite a bit lately, and I do see a general, but distinct difference in how it performs.

The side ground gouge is that which is produced by using one of the jigs that swing the tool around an arc, such as the wolverine vari-grind. The traditional grind is accomplished by simply rotating the tool on it's longitudinal axis while grinding......I do this with the butt of the handle in the wolverine V-arm.

Thanks, John......I think this is going to be a great, and informative subject for discussion. :D

-----odie-----
 
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I have no idea even though I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express! However, I will keep watching this thread and learning about flutes and grinds. John thanks for starting the subject.
 
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To me Open flute is straight up. 12 on the clock

The direction line pointS
from the botton of the flute

Closed flute is horizontal either at 3 or 9 o’clock

I teach starting cut with flute closed and rolling the flute open to about 45 degrees.

A good tip for beginners is to draw red line at the bottom of the flute with a sharpie. If the beginner sees red the flute is too open and they should close the flute to avoid a catch. This tip was attributed to Glenn lucas.
 
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Doc Green gave me the best answer. A closed flute is when the tool is rotated so the cutting edge is vertical and not cutting. Open is when you rotate it so that the edge is now cutting. Inside a bowl for example if the gouge is at 3 oclock it is not cutting. rotate it counter clockwise to 2 oclock and now it's cutting. This would apply to spindle gouge or bowl gouges no matter what the grind. Obviously you can open too much and come off the bevel of the wing on a bowl gouge and get a catch but all I was looking for is a definition to put in print so we all know what we are talking about. Language is useless if you don't know what it means. It's kind of like telling you to rub the bevel when you have no idea what the bevel is.
 
What Al says is exactly my understanding of open and closed flute. Additionally, I think that you could also apply the term closed flute to shear scraping where the tool is rolled over so that the flute is facing the wood. Likewise, shear cutting is done with an open flute so that the wing is essentially vertical.

John, my use of open and closed flute is based on how the flute is clock face oriented and not necessarily whether the bevel is in contact with the wood.
 
Jack Brown said:
What is the difference. Use it however need to get the job done. The rest is just a lot of BS.
Click to expand...
Jack for individuals that can work and no one else has to have the same understanding that you have since they can arrive at it themselves..

However when you are trying communicate with other turners either in conversations or written articles it helps to have a common vocabulary to describe how the gouge is oriented for different cuts.
In teaching, once you educate the class about flute position you can just say 1:30 and they all know what that means.
I find a lot of value in that.
 
Well, I can't even play the flute. Oh man, I logged on to the wrong forum again...

Hi folks. Good to be back here. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
 
More or less what Al said. I would be a bit more specific, based on what one of my mentors taught me:

Using a bowl gouge on face-grain oriented wood (bowl or plate), whether shaping the outside or the inside: Flute facing straight up is 12:00 and is fully open; flute facing 3:00 (when cutting towards the center) or facing 9:00 (when cutting towards rim) is closed.

He would then have me do a cut (in the closed position), open the flute a bit, then, close it a bit, to get a feel for how the bowl gouge would remove wood.
 
Hey Mark Welcome back. Yes Al has it correct. What I'm trying to do is to answer some questions that often come up and to sort of set a standard for the common language. So when I say Included angle, or a scraper is sharpened at 70 degrees, or open the flute everyone knows what we are talking about. It absolutely amazing how people can misinterpret what you say in print. Many arguments get started online because someone thinks you are saying one thing when you are not. I remember I had a battle with one woodturner and we could not agree. when we met in person it was obvious we were both saying the same thing but in different ways and we became friends after that. That's why it's so important to try and get a common language.
 
Mark Hepburn said:
Well, I can't even play the flute. Oh man, I logged on to the wrong forum again...

Hi folks. Good to be back here. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.
Click to expand...

Well, glory be! Ça va? I was about to organize a search party to go to Houma. I hope that you and your family are doing well.

The only flute that I can play is the bowl gouge. :D
 
Doing well Bill. Been a tough year but things are looking up. I hope you and yours are also.
 
john lucas said:
Hey Mark Welcome back. Yes Al has it correct. What I'm trying to do is to answer some questions that often come up and to sort of set a standard for the common language. So when I say Included angle, or a scraper is sharpened at 70 degrees, or open the flute everyone knows what we are talking about. It absolutely amazing how people can misinterpret what you say in print. Many arguments get started online because someone thinks you are saying one thing when you are not. I remember I had a battle with one woodturner and we could not agree. when we met in person it was obvious we were both saying the same thing but in different ways and we became friends after that. That's why it's so important to try and get a common language.
Click to expand...

Thanks John. I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed both your article on square ornaments and also the beautiful work on the cover of the latest issue.
 
hockenbery said:
Jack for individuals that can work and no one else has to have the same understanding that you have since they can arrive at it themselves..

However when you are trying communicate with other turners either in conversations or written articles it helps to have a common vocabulary to describe how the gouge is oriented for different cuts.
In teaching, once you educate the class about flute position you can just say 1:30 and they all know what that means.
I find a lot of value in that.
Click to expand...
I recently got into an argument on a facebook page trying to answer a statement like Jack's. Some people simply dont care to know the basic principles of woodturning. They are happy simply making a bowl full of torn grain and they start sanding at 40 grit. Not saying that is what Jack is doing... The argument was about direction of cut inside a bowl, something so simple to explain and understand, yet a person kept saying it doesn't matter... John: I find it easier to tell beginners the position of the flute related to a clock.... I remember the close and open position from an old video, maybe Raffan? But I have heard it before, 12 o'clock , 2 o'clock etc works better for me... I also enjoyed your article John. Aloha
 
odie said:
Don't think I've ever contemplated open vs closed flute, John......or, even heard of it......but, you are making me zero in on the general concept right now! :D.....you did make me try searching to see exactly what you're talking about. I did find a couple of images that might help to explain the differences:
wp76485c27_06.png

Here's another:
wp198ec8c7_06.png

More:
wpeb6c471b_06.png

Etc:
wp55ad6675_06.png

I'll add to this illustration, that "rotation" is something that greatly helps with control when negotiating an inside curve.....here -->)......not necessarily here -->(

Near as I can figure, the open flute concept applies more to a side ground gouge, while the closed flute concept more applies to a traditional ground gouge. As you know, I've been experimenting with the traditional grind quite a bit lately, and I do see a general, but distinct difference in how it performs.

The side ground gouge is that which is produced by using one of the jigs that swing the tool around an arc, such as the wolverine vari-grind. The traditional grind is accomplished by simply rotating the tool on it's longitudinal axis while grinding......I do this with the butt of the handle in the wolverine V-arm.

Thanks, John......I think this is going to be a great, and informative subject for discussion. :D

-----odie-----
Click to expand...
Odie, nice diagrams!! I will copy them if you dont mind. Where did you get them? Aloha
 
Emiliano Achaval said:
Odie, nice diagrams!! I will copy them if you dont mind. Where did you get them? Aloha
Click to expand...

Hi Emiliano......those aren't my diagrams. I found them on the internet by searching "open closed flute gouge", and then going to the images that came up. The person who made those diagrams has quite a few woodturning related diagrams. You might find some of them interesting, as did I. He did a very good job of creating them. They all are available for anyone to use.....

Instead, it might be simpler to just give you a direct link to his drawings and diagrams:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ope...AhUs6IMKHUuCDd0Q9C8IHg&biw=1024&bih=637&dpr=1

Howdy pardner!

-----odie-----
 
wp1b8725dd_06.png

images


Here's a couple of his diabrams that relates to what Al was telling us about how he explains the flute direction to his students. It's a good way to relay that information.....and something I'll be sure to keep in mind when I want to relate to someone else. ;)

-----odie-----
 
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Wow Odie thanks for than link. some incredibly useful photos. Will take a lot of time to look through them. that photo of tearout by Doc Green caught my attention also. That would be a challenge to cure. :)
 
Emiliano Achaval said:
They are happy simply making a bowl full of torn grain and they start sanding at 40 grit. Not saying that is what Jack is doing...
Click to expand...
So true. I used to think it was sad. But those folks are just enjoying woodturning differently than I do.

It has been my experience that 5-15% of the membership of most AAW chapters fit this description. They seem to enjoy woodturning but have no interest in learning to get better. With out an interest in improving their skills the don’t see a benifit in AAW.

I think anyone visiting the forum is doing so out of a desire to improve their skills and knowledge.
 
Bill, thanks for the link. I'm going to look at his website and save it as a Favorite. Been doing this with a lot of websites and Youtube sites for the information. Also, need to get into the AAW site as well since we have the link on the forum.
 
hockenbery said:
It has been my experience that 5-15% of the membership of most AAW chapters fit this description. They seem to enjoy woodturning but have no interest in learning to get better. With out an interest in improving their skills the don’t see a benifit in AAW.
Click to expand...

That's exactly our club. I think part of it is so many of the members do very little actual turning. They come to the meetings for fun and entertainment. Most don't subscribe to any woodworking or turning magazines so they aren't going to pay the money for an AAW membership even though the Journal and especially the archives have so much to offer.

I working on trying to answer various questions that come up frequently like what angles are good for tools, how do you measure them, how do you set those on the grinder, etc They will probably be in Woodturning Fundamentals in the near future. Along with that we are trying to come up with a common language so can all understand each other.
 
john lucas said:
Along with that we are trying to come up with a common language so can all understand each other.
Click to expand...
I keep thinking @Bill Boehme will author the woodturning dictionary.
:) :)


Maybe some software tool like the use for Wikipedia would allow multiple authors to define a woodturning vocabulary.
 
OK back to the original question. I think we have answered that a closed flute is when the tool is in a position that the cutting edge is not cutting. 3 oclock inside a bowl and 9 oclock outside a bowl. Opening a flute is rotating the tool so that it starts to cut. Lets say 2 oclock inside a bowl and 10 oclock out side a bowl. That seems to be the definition that most are using. What then do we call the position when you are shear scraping with the flute pointing toward the wood? That is what I originally called a closed flute.
 
We also have to consider handle position in addition to the roll - pitch and yaw.

For a scraping cut the handle is about level and the flute is almost closed 2:55 or 9:05 and the handle is brought all the way around so that the edge of the wing faces the wood.

The handle level bevel riding push cut the bevel was on the wood flute closed at 3 o 9:to start the cut. Once the cut starts the handle is dropped a bit and the flute rolled to 4 or 8.

To get to the shear scrape the handle is dropped to about 45 degrees with the tool rolling so that the upper wing almost touches the wood.
In the shear scrape I change hand position so that the lower hand is on the ferrel.
Both hands on the steel float over the surface upper wing almost touching.
Here it is important not to let the flute open.

Fundamental concept to avoid catches is to not allow the wood to drive onto the cutting edge.

Also once you are out of the horizontal plane we pretty much loose the notion of clock since “up” on the gouge goes through some serious axis translations and rotations. In the horizontal plane the tip of the gouge is the center of a 3 axis coordinate system and the clock gives us the angle in the x-z plane. The y axis is the gouge.
That will give you headache and half trying to think it through as a 3 axis motion problem which is why it make programming robots a tough problem.
 
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For me, close flute is when the flute of the gouge is horizontal to the surface regardless of the height of the toolrest or the flute facing the bowl or facing away. Open flute is when it is at any other angle.

You start with close flute, rubbing the bevel for example or almost touching for scraping. You open the flute to start the cut or scrape. The degree of rotation controls how much surface being sliced/cut.

Now, safety comes in play. If toolrest is below center, if you open flute in the wrong direction, if you open flute too much, etc.
 
john lucas said:
?... I think we have answered that a closed flute is when the tool is in a position that the cutting edge is not cutting. 3 oclock inside a bowl and 9 oclock outside a bowl.
Click to expand...

I think that we can still cut with a bowl gouge in the three or nine o'clock position in certain situations (or maybe 2:55 and 9:55 as Al said ... although he didn't say if that was AM or PM). :D An example would be the entry cut for the interior of a bowl.

hockenbery said:
.... Also once you are out of the horizontal plane we pretty much loose the notion of clock since up on the gouge goes through some serious axis translations and rotations. In the horizontal plane the tip of the gouge is the center of a 3 axis coordinate system and the clock gives us the angle in the x-z plane. The y axis is the gouge.
That will give you headache and half trying to think it through as a 3 axis motion problem which is why it make programming robots a tough problem.
Click to expand...

Being a GN&C guy, I am accustomed to working where "up" has no meaning. :D
 
Dennis I can't do algebra and probably have trouble even spelling Calculus. If my Abacus wasn't working I wouldn't even be able to figure out how to take my medicine each day.
 
This makes my head hurt.... My comment over on WC is, 'to me an open flute is a continental style spindle roughing gouge, and a closed flute is an old Glaser deep V gouge.'.....

robo hippy
 
Dennis J Gooding said:
BTW, this same topic is also running on the Wood Central Woodturning Forum. It is interesting to compare the two threads.
Click to expand...

I went over to WC and concluded that John is just a troublemaker trying to get everybody riled up. :D I'll bet that John is just pretending to be confused to get everybody else riled up and see what kind of responses he can elicit. :rolleyes:
 
odie said:
Hi Emiliano......those aren't my diagrams. I found them on the internet by searching "open closed flute gouge", and then going to the images that came up. The person who made those diagrams has quite a few woodturning related diagrams. You might find some of them interesting, as did I. He did a very good job of creating them. They all are available for anyone to use.....

Instead, it might be simpler to just give you a direct link to his drawings and diagrams:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ope...AhUs6IMKHUuCDd0Q9C8IHg&biw=1024&bih=637&dpr=1

Howdy pardner!

-----odie-----
Click to expand...
Thank you! Appreciated. Aloha
 
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