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Ospreys vs. Badgers

L

Lars Hansen

Joined
May 8, 2019
Messages
328
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146
Location
Funen, Denmark
This question may seem directed to John Lucas, but other info/opinions are very welcome.

I currently own and love the positive features of two Hunter tools, the Hercules and the Osprey.
I also familiar with the videos about the Hunter tools.

Now I'm tempted to try the Badger (straight tool).

As a tool costumer, I don't expect to find a producer emphasizing less strong sides of his products, and when I read about the virtues of the Osprey and the Badger tools, they seem to overlap.
To me, the design doesn't clearly reveal the difference.

Could someone please explain to me in what ways these two tools perform different?
For what specific tasks would you chose the O over the B - and vice versa?

Osprey for side grain and Badger for end grain or...? And WHY?

Thanks very much for any help.
 
Subscribed. As an owner of two Badgers (1 each of straight-neck and swan-neck), and being sold on the Hunter cutters, I have been wondering about this same thing before getting any more of them.
 
Following. Dont have any hunter tools. I find their website extremely confusing to sort through the tool differences and allow tool selection based on defining characteristics of each tool. Perhaps there is a comparison chart on their site I have missed. One would need to create such a chart so that tools dont overlap too much. Then again, that could be their marketing approach - make it seem like there is no overlap and each tool needs to be purchased.
 
Agree about the confusion - It would probably be a better idea for them to name their tools some traditional model/numbering/style than a "animal name" - I ended up getting an Osprey , and while it works wonderfully, it is not as versatile as I had hoped, and now I wonder if maybe I should have gotten the Badger instead. But I am hesitant to go buy one, because if it gets as little use as the Osprey I got, I'd feel like I'd wasted some money on a tool that isn't as useful as I'd expected it to be.
 
@john lucas has a number of videos showing the strengths of different Hunter tools and how he uses them.
I found a few of these relevant comments by John searching the forum. The last touches on your question

Maybe John will chime in.

john lucas said:
The flat carbide tools are nothing like the cupped carbide Hunter tools. The Hunter tools can be used as bevel riding tools and leave a spectacular finish. Here is a quick piece I cut with the Hunter badger to show how clean it cuts and to demonstrate how you can cut a 90° corner on a box.
Click to expand...

BFC67658-1DBC-4281-8080-F89B7074A4E3.jpeg

john lucas said:
The two Hunter cutters I use the most are the Badger and the Viceroy. The Badger is for finishing box interiors and bowl bottoms. I use the the Viceroy for hollowing my smaller open pieces and for knocking off the corners of really out of round pieces.
Click to expand...

john lucas said:
I like the Hercules. Very quick to hollow ucmsing it like a scraper. Then fir final shaping use it as a bevel rubbing tool. It works like a push cut. Then if necessary rotate the cupped side toward the bowl and shear scrape with it.
Click to expand...
Here is the video I did of the Hunter Hercules. All of his tools can be used as bevel-rubbing tools although some are a little more challenging. The angle of the Osprey for example makes it really good for cutting with the tool flat or shear scraping. not as easy to use as a bevel rubbing tool as the Hercules.


View:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzrLN8SQ8ms&ab_channel=john60lucas
 
hockenbery said:
The angle of the Osprey for example makes it really good for cutting with the tool flat or shear scraping. not as easy to use as a bevel rubbing tool as the Hercules.
Click to expand...
THIS is probably why I had trouble with my Osprey - this kind of info should really be part of the tool descriptions, I think - If I'd read that specific info while comparing Osprey & Badger, I'd probably have gotten the Badger first, I think.

Went with the Osprey as it was recommended for smaller work (as I understood it) and I wanted to see if I could get better results on some burl wood I was turning... but it was way too challenging to get a bevel riding cut , I went back to a freshly sharpened 3/8 detail gouge and changed the project's profile so my tool rests could keep the tool close to the wood... so now the Osprey just sits there almost forgotten (Though I'll use it to quickly rough out a spindle turning
 
I love Hunter tools and own half a dozen of them, but I share your confusion about the differences between the different tools. I know Mike and have conveyed this to him and actually helped him revamp his web site a few years ago. But renaming his tools was, I guess, a bridge too far! But attached is a spreadsheet that I developed that helps me understand and keep track of the differences. I haven't updated it since 2019 so there are a few that I haven't added. ie some additional Cindy Drozda tools. but perhaps this will help some of you.
 

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Yeah, nice spreadsheet, I'd still be confused.. I mean, Bowl Gouge, Spindle Gouge - tools for which the primary purpose is rather obvious... but whats the difference between an Osprey and a Badger for actual utilization - Yeah they can be a scraper, or they can make a bevel riding cut, but what sort of problem do they *solve*? The sizes mean next to nothing without understanding the *purpose* behind the different designs - as in WHY were they made the way they are (beyond the obvious fact that they can do a bevel riding cut in addition to being a scraper) - What about the heel angle (I.E. if one of them was used in place of a bowl gouge, what sort of heel clearance do they have for , say, cutting through the bottom transitions?) Trying to use the Osprey for example in a bowl gouge situation , even an ordinary bevel riding push cut, I find they don't quite work the same way as a bowl gouge with the same nose radius (Seem to handle more like a continental gouge, which isn't particularly well suited for bowl turning anyways)

That's the sort of thing I think the website should really be able to explain more clearly, which might help some of those (obviously more than a few) who are hesitating to pull the trigger on a purchase, to make more informed choice...

(Actually I am sorta hoping the feedback may be helpful to maybe "fix up" the website a bit... Watching John's videos can only help so far. unless or until he does a bunch more..)
 
@ Hockenbery:
Thanks a lot. Searching John Lucas' older comments, I must have missed the helpful one you quote:

john lucas said:
The two Hunter cutters I use the most are the Badger and the Viceroy. The Badger is for finishing box interiors and bowl bottoms. I use the the Viceroy for hollowing my smaller open pieces and for knocking off the corners of really out of round pieces

@ Dave:
Nice overview in your spreadsheet.

@ All:
Thanks. Comforting to read that I'm not the only one finding the descriptions confusing
I agree that adding a comparison chart on the Hunter website would clear up any confusion and very likely add to sales of the Hunter tools.

I agree that the Hercules is one h... of a tool. A friend came with a brain size cherry burr that he found on the beach. I couldn't make myself turn him down and accepted to try and get something out of it.
Took my midi Jet outside and rough turned it with the Hercules, dirt and sand flying around my head.
No problem for the cutter, it didn't even appear to be dull afterwards.

Still hope to get further comments specifically on the Osprey vs. Badger question
 
I don't understand how a turner cannot understand the Hunter tools when they easily understand and choose bowl, spindle, scrapers etc. ad infinitum with all the different shapes sizes, steels and manufacturers. Hunter tools make it easier as they all cut with the same carbide but just in different sizes and shapes of shafts. The straight and straight tapered shafts are used where ever you would or could use a bowl, spindle or scraper. The curved tools are used in hollowing or cutting where a straight tool cannot reach. Same with the flat shaped tools that sit flat on the tool rest. Some of the Hunters have set angles of the cutters and they usually have a stated purpose for doing so. The main idea for me is that they do stay sharp a long time and when they do dull you just turn them a little and your back at it. For me the size of the cutter is more important for choosing a Hunter out of the drawer than the shaft it is on (but the bigger the cutter generally the bigger the shaft). The reason that 95% of my conventional turning tools are Thompson's is the same reason 95% of my carbide tools are Hunter's, its because for me they are the best! If memory serves me the Osprey tools have tilted heads where the Badger cutters are flat to the shaft and the Badger comes either in straight shaft or bent shaft where Osprey is straight giving different choices for what you are cutting. It boils down to the fact that depending on what you are doing one type (steel or carbide) may do a better job at any given piece of wood for me. Once again overboard on my thoughts :)
 
@Bill Blasic glad you took the time to study hunter tools and sort them out, in your head. Doesnt help a lot in mine, though. You actually make the point, there are different size cutters, different shaft dia, shaft length, shaft curvature, shaft shape (round/rectangle), cutter presentation, and all of that is plastered in a jumbled mess, with names that tell nothing, in the website.

@Dave Hulett ’s chart is a start. If the owner of hunter cant find the time to better explain his products, I refuse to find the time and $ to figure it out for him.
 
Bill Blasic said:
If memory serves me the Osprey tools have tilted heads where the Badger cutters are flat to the shaft and the Badger comes either in straight shaft or bent shaft where Osprey is straight giving different choices for what you are cutting.
Click to expand...
another thing I didn't know, I don't recall seeing that info on hunter website either. maybe that is why I didn't realize there was more than just a size/diameter difference between Badger & Osprey.. which probably would have been helpful in choosing the tool - which takes me back to your lead-in statement... It is hard to make a choice when you can't easily understand what it is you are trying to choose between! With traditional tools, it is fairly easy as many of them have self-explanatory naming scheme (and with traditional tools if you don't like the "grind" or profile, you can address that on a grinder - With the carbides, you're stuck with what they give you.)

Like Doug said, if the info can maybe be better explained than it is right now, I'd be more likely to go shop there first. It isn't like I can go buy a half dozen different hunters and try them all out to see what I like. (which can easily be done with cheapo china tools) - Couldn't afford to do that, so if I had to pick where my next $100 tool buy goes to, right now, it will probably be a Thompson... unless the Chinese start making "cheap clones" of the hunter tools to be had for $30 or so on amazon.
 
@Bill Blasic im certain that you can imagine a better webpage setup for Hunter than what currently exists. Without perusing each tool page, the uniformed user would not know the difference between one tool and another based on name alone. Whereas, traditional tools generally have descriptive names. I think most folks would more easily understand the uses for the various Hunter tools if they had access to a spreadsheet like above. The information is listed on the Hunter website, but it could be a heck of a lot clear for the user.
 
Wow a lot of questions. Don't know if I can answer then all. If you go to my youtube channel and watch the various Hunter tool videos it will answer more of your questions or might bring up a question that is narrower and easier to answer. my channel is johnlucaswoodturner. The badger is different than all the others in that the cutter is mounted flat. Never, never present the cutter flat to the wood. It is a huge catch waiting to happen. The best description of using the Badger is to look at it as a Hook tool or ring tool. Those tools would never be used flat either. They and the Badger are bevel rubbing tools used tilted to one side or the other. The Badger is my most used tool. It is fantastic for the inside bottom of boxes or steep sided bowls. Think of it as a bottoming gouge. You grind the nose of a bottoming gouge more blunt to be able to ride the bevel without the shank of the tool hitting the lip of a deep bowl. People grind them to 70 degrees or so for this purpose. The outside bevel of the Badger is 82 degrees so you can ride the bevel on very steep bowls or the inside of boxes. The nice thing about it is the cutter is cup shaped so the actual cutting edge is 60 degrees. So it will leave a cleaner surface than bottoming gouges.

The Hunter Hercules I like a lot because the nose is very close to the nose angle of a typical Ellsworth style grind. This makes it very easy to use in a push cut because you probably already do that with your bowl gouge. I find it a very good tool to use flat as a scraper for rough shaping bowls. I played one day when rough turning a really out of round piece. I swapped back and forth between my 5/8" bowl gouge and the Hercules and found that the Hercules stressed my shoulder less. (i have shoulder problem from 73 years of working to hard) I have also done the same thing with flat carbides and Hercules. The Hercules holds an edge a lot longer and just keeps cutting. The reason is it cuts instead of scrapes. The cut is not much cleaner than a scrape with a flat carbide simply because of the angle that it is presented to the wood. However you will find that you don't have to replace the cutter as often. Just rotate it frequently to present a new edge.

The Osprey is different than the Hercules in that the cutter is offset to the left. This makes is much easier to hollow or clean up the inside of a vase or box. It is not as easy to ride the bevel on that tool. However you can shear scrape with it much easier than shear scraping with the Hercules. To shear scrape orient the tool so the cupped side is toward the wall off the box. Shear scraping also works well with the Badger.

All of the other tools are just modifications of these 3 trying to help you solve a problem such as the new Talon tools or the various curved tools. Some of his tools have the cutter angled back toward you. These are always used in a pull direction and if you angle the handle out you can get a bevel rubbing cut in areas that you could never do that with any other tool.

Kind of busy now with the Christmas season and traveling but if you have specific question I will try to answer.
 
john lucas said:
Wow a lot of questions. Don't know if I can answer then all. If you go to my youtube channel and watch the various Hunter tool videos it will answer more of your questions or might bring up a question that is narrower and easier to answer. my channel is johnlucaswoodturner. The badger is different than all the others in that the cutter is mounted flat. Never, never present the cutter flat to the wood. It is a huge catch waiting to happen. The best description of using the Badger is to look at it as a Hook tool or ring tool. Those tools would never be used flat either. They and the Badger are bevel rubbing tools used tilted to one side or the other. The Badger is my most used tool. It is fantastic for the inside bottom of boxes or steep sided bowls. Think of it as a bottoming gouge. You grind the nose of a bottoming gouge more blunt to be able to ride the bevel without the shank of the tool hitting the lip of a deep bowl. People grind them to 70 degrees or so for this purpose. The outside bevel of the Badger is 82 degrees so you can ride the bevel on very steep bowls or the inside of boxes. The nice thing about it is the cutter is cup shaped so the actual cutting edge is 60 degrees. So it will leave a cleaner surface than bottoming gouges.

The Hunter Hercules I like a lot because the nose is very close to the nose angle of a typical Ellsworth style grind. This makes it very easy to use in a push cut because you probably already do that with your bowl gouge. I find it a very good tool to use flat as a scraper for rough shaping bowls. I played one day when rough turning a really out of round piece. I swapped back and forth between my 5/8" bowl gouge and the Hercules and found that the Hercules stressed my shoulder less. (i have shoulder problem from 73 years of working to hard) I have also done the same thing with flat carbides and Hercules. The Hercules holds an edge a lot longer and just keeps cutting. The reason is it cuts instead of scrapes. The cut is not much cleaner than a scrape with a flat carbide simply because of the angle that it is presented to the wood. However you will find that you don't have to replace the cutter as often. Just rotate it frequently to present a new edge.

The Osprey is different than the Hercules in that the cutter is offset to the left. This makes is much easier to hollow or clean up the inside of a vase or box. It is not as easy to ride the bevel on that tool. However you can shear scrape with it much easier than shear scraping with the Hercules. To shear scrape orient the tool so the cupped side is toward the wall off the box. Shear scraping also works well with the Badger.

All of the other tools are just modifications of these 3 trying to help you solve a problem such as the new Talon tools or the various curved tools. Some of his tools have the cutter angled back toward you. These are always used in a pull direction and if you angle the handle out you can get a bevel rubbing cut in areas that you could never do that with any other tool.

Kind of busy now with the Christmas season and traveling but if you have specific question I will try to answer.
Click to expand...
Now that is a beautiful explanation! This one single concise explanation would be just what I'd have liked to have found at Hunter's website - all in one place. If I'd seen that before trying to figure out which tool I wanted, I'd have immediately bought a Badger (rather than the Osprey I thought I wanted) and then planned on getting a Hercules next as soon as I had finds available. But in any case, thanks for that explanation, and now I know exactly what to plan on for my next Hunter tool purchases!
 
I was fortunate to meet Mike Hunter when I lived in MN and was a member of the Woodturning club with him. Mike is very approachable, and a nice guy. I’ve owned the set of 3 small ornament hollowing tools he produces for many years, and the Badger for the last 2-3yrs. These are great tools. I don’t use them often, but when in a difficult spot or doing something special they excel.

Case in point: this week I turned two ~7” deep end grain open vases; the first using Jamieson’s captured bar hollowing jig with the same small round carbide cutter Hunter uses, the second I used the Badger. Not only was the Badger quicker, but I did a better more consistent job with it requiring less sanding. Don’t take this as a negative on Lyle’s system (that I like a lot) but as a testimonial to Mike’s Badger.

I echo some of the comments and recall being confused trying to decide on which tool to purchase when I finally decided on the Badger. But from my experience it’s worth working through it and ending up with a great tool. From Mike’s comment above I’m sure he’ll be making this easier. Don’t be afraid to buy one of his tools, I’m sure you’ll be as happy with it as I am with mine.
 
Being just one tool away from greatness, over the years I have added a number of Hunter tools. I own the Badger straight and Swan Neck, a Hercules (5/8"), the small tapered straight and shoulder tools, a Drozda Cygnet, a 3/8" Viceroy and a most recently a Long Reach Baron. While the cutters differ only in diameter, the different shafts are needed to reach different areas of a bowl, vase, box or hollow form. The shaft sizes required are determined by the size or your opening and the distance you need to reach over the tool rest. But as others have said, A call to Hunter Tool Systems will be answered by Mike Hunter himself. It's this type of support that makes me keep going back to Hunter Tool Systems.
 
Late getting here but here goes . John covered most of it and Bill did great also so basically this is just my observations.

Until I got the mini hollowing set I was blowing out 2 of 3 ornaments. Not sure what the change was , maybe just experience but it happened with the new hollowers.

I have also the #4 , #5 swan neck and Viceroy. I love hollowing with the Viceroy . That small cutter on it just about throws the wood out and the shank size reduces the vibration also. The #4 is a larger cutter and is great for finish cuts and smoothing a surface. It is really nasty if you engage it to work piece flat but once started you can get it flatter. Stating out at about 37 or 40 degree tilt on a straight cutter ( one that is not already mounted at an angle) will give you a very satisfying experience.
 
There are 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8" and 3/4" V and U gouges. Different size and flute depth spindle gouges. Different size and shaped scrapers etc., etc. etc. Yet in any adds selling them there is no reference as how to use them. On the Hunter site most tools have some info on how they are used yet it's said the site is confusing. I wonder what the underlying problem is? I stress when talking about the Hunters to my students that the Hunters are cutting tools not scrapers and just like your gouges and other turning tools there are many many different ways to use them.
 
One thing I didnt cover the other day. The osprey differs from the Hercules only in the shape of the shank. The Hercules works better when used as a scraper because of the square shank. The Osprey with its round shank works better as a bevel riding tool because it's very similar to using a bowl gouge.
 
@Mike Hunter - thanks for making your presence known, I did not know you hang out here.

After contemplating this discussion over the past few days, it finally dawned on me what the underlying problem is - frame of reference.

I grew up learning and using the English system of measurement, as well as the English language. I was taught the metric system, some in jr hi, more in hi school, and more in college while acquiring an engineering degree. I spent ~20 years of my career working on a product type designed in metric units. Every time I had to convert the metric back to English units, because that is and will always be my frame of reference - feet, gallons, pounds, and not meters, liters, and grams. It doesn't matter that the base 10 decimal aspect of the metric system is easier (even the English gave up on the English system), my learned frame of reference is the English system, it is what I have a "feel" for.

I have many friends that are fluent in English as a 2nd language - all of them "think" in their native language, and "convert" to English.

HSS tools are the measurement & language system - the frame of reference - for wood turning. There is a huge amount of info to build this frame of reference. Many people, and certainly the great turners we all admire, have created many charts, videos, articles, etc over many years to build this frame of reference.

The Hunter tools are an anomaly - they are distinctly different from HSS tools, and they are in a group of one. Having a unique product is wonderful, but......if that product is outside the frame of reference, the inability to relate the unique product to an existing frame of reference can be its downfall. What about the new(er) turner that hasn't developed the HSS tool frame of reference? Unfortunately 99% of the available info as well as fellow club members (the resources to help the poor noob) are all grounded in HSS tools.

That's the problem, so what's the solution? Well, my solution to the metric system is to have conversion charts, and of course, over time I memorized a lot of them, but I keep one on the wall in my shop. This does not discount the confusion with the Hunter tools themselves. Personally, I need a sortable speadsheet, downloadable from the website, that lists all the characteristics of the tools in a columnar format, so that I can sort by cutter size, shaft size, shaft shape, cutter set angle, etc. I can then sort through all that info, in many various ways, and start to build a frame of reference for the tool offerings.

Then, I need a sortable chart that relates each tool to the approximate hss tool counterpart and the type of cut. This now starts to allow me to build a conversion frame of reference. Highlighting the particular supposed advantages of the Hunter tools in particular situations would be next on my list (I always take claims with a grain of salt - I have to experience it or be able to directly relate to it to 100% believe it). It would be great if Mike Hunter could afford to get a bunch of demos and endorsements from popular turners, but that just drives up his operating costs.

Hunter tool question - the cutters have numbers relating to dia. The tools have names, and then numbers. Does the tool # always, no exception, relate to the cutter used? If not, do away with tool numbers and use something else, or use 2 digit #'s.
 
I've only used my Badger on 4 end grain boxes; not an expert. Two comments that Mike made demonstrating at our club:

Smaller cutter size is easier to control/ larger cutter better surface
Maintenance--After each sesson, loosen and randomly spin the cutter. Change the cutter when it's dull.
 
Doug Freeman said:
@Mike Hunter -

Hunter tool question - the cutters have numbers relating to dia. The tools have names, and then numbers. Does the tool # always, no exception, relate to the cutter used? If not, do away with tool numbers and use something else, or use 2 digit #'s.
Click to expand...
I don't know much about the Hunter tools, but I do know I have a no. 5 badger and it comes with a number 3 cutter. Many of the Hunter tools come with the no. 3. cutter.
 
There are four sizes of cutters. They are # 1, # 2, # 3 / # 5, and # 4. The # 3 and # 5 cutter are the exact same cutter and there is a long story why we have that which would take forever to explain and is incidential to this discussion.

The tools generally start with a number that designates the size of the cutter used by the tool and the components that go into the specific tool. For example, a # 1 Osprey will use a # 1 cutter, # 1 Screw and a # 1 Wrench. The # 5 Badger will use a #3/#5 Cutter, #3/#5 Screw and a #3/#5 Wrench. The cutter and torx wrench specs are already detailed on the website. https://huntertoolsystems.com/about/specs/

I am working on and will post an excel file that will expand on the recommended use of the Hunter brand of tools. This will not be a cross-ref to a traditional bowl or spindle gouge as you cannot compare apples to oranges. I personally use both carbide and HSS in my turnings and the intention is not to take over the woodturning market with carbide, but to provide a value added, high performance tool, Minneapolis, MN USA manufactured, in our selection of tools available to each one of us.
 
Mike Hunter said:
There are four sizes of cutters. They are # 1, # 2, # 3 / # 5, and # 4. The # 3 and # 5 cutter are the exact same cutter and there is a long story why we have that which would take forever to explain and is incidential to this discussion.

The tools generally start with a number that designates the size of the cutter used by the tool and the components that go into the specific tool. For example, a # 1 Osprey will use a # 1 cutter, # 1 Screw and a # 1 Wrench. The # 5 Badger will use a #3/#5 Cutter, #3/#5 Screw and a #3/#5 Wrench. The cutter and torx wrench specs are already detailed on the website. https://huntertoolsystems.com/about/specs/

I am working on and will post an excel file that will expand on the recommended use of the Hunter brand of tools. This will not be a cross-ref to a traditional bowl or spindle gouge as you cannot compare apples to oranges. I personally use both carbide and HSS in my turnings and the intention is not to take over the woodturning market with carbide, but to provide a value added, high performance tool, Minneapolis, MN USA manufactured, in our selection of tools available to each one of us.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that Mike. After reading much praise, my first Hunter Tool was a #5 Badger--used. While waiting for it to arrive, i went to the web site to pick up a few spare cutters, got thoroughly confused by the #3/#5 thing. I waited until the tool arrived, measured, and ordered. Boy, for a while there i thought somebody had sold me an obsolete tool since #5 cutters no longer seemed to exist!! Anyway, i'm starting to get it...and the Viceroy (bought new) which i love when it fits the cut. For me, the learning curve to be able to use has been fairly short, but not sure i'll ever master (just like my HSS tools.)
earl
 
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