Paying demonstrators - down the road

[C Edward Moore]

So as to avoid stealing the thread I have started a new one. And, my comments and concluding questions below may shift the direction a little.

I was the Program Director for SMLW for several years. We are 45 minutes or so from most of the members of a second club, the Blue Ridge Woodturners. In fact many of us belong to both clubs. If I invited a member of BRW to demo I paid them $40 or so and fed them a meal at our home on the evening of their demo. If the BRW member was nationally known, then he was paid his fee because he did an all day demo.

I never paid a club member to do an evening demo and feel that this is appropriate. On the other hand, if a club member does an all day demo then they should be compensated because the preparation effort required increases exponentially as the time increases linearly. If we had a member who was a professional demonstrator then it would be fair to expect them to do an evening "freebie" every two years or so. But, they should not be taken advantage of and be expected to serve as the default club demonstrator.

I predict that we are going to see some changes in the woodturning landscape as the number of professionals and professional demonstrators increases. We have long enjoyed an open and shared environment and I feel that this is because the demand has greatly exceeded the supply. Clubs tend to range from 25 to 75 members (my guess) and they can afford one or maybe two pros a year. We are all aware of larger clubs, but they are the exception, I think. The number of clubs is increasing, but not as rapidly as the number of people hoping to do professional demonstrations. So, as the demand decreases and return engagements are limited, I expect the market to change. I wonder if it is going to be like professional golf and some older demonstrators will become passe' and then become part of a senior circuit, getting fewer demonstration opportunities.

I encourage each of you to get out your crystal ball and give us your view of what you see down the road in the wonderful world of woodturning. Will market changes affect the sharing of techniques and ideas? What is the future for the itinerant demonstrators who have helped us grow as turners as they go around sharing their knowledge and the gospel of woodturning?

 

[George Guadiane]

2 Cents

I predict that we are going to see some changes in the woodturning landscape as the number of professionals and professional demonstrators increases. We have long enjoyed an open and shared environment and I feel that this is because the demand has greatly exceeded the supply. Clubs tend to range from 25 to 75 members (my guess) and they can afford one or maybe two pros a year. We are all aware of larger clubs, but they are the exception, I think. The number of clubs is increasing, but not as rapidly as the number of people hoping to do professional demonstrations. So, as the demand decreases and return engagements are limited, I expect the market to change. I wonder if it is going to be like professional golf and some older demonstrators will become passe' and then become part of a senior circuit, getting fewer demonstration opportunities.

I missed the Portland event , but they did a REALLY CLASSY thing in having the old world old style Japanese turners come and give demonstrations and show their work. AAW also provided some turning stock from Japan for some of the "new age" turners to show their "stuff" on.
I said that to say that you can't build a house without a good foundation - Woodturning has unavoidable and inescapable basics that anyone new to the art will need to have, and guys like me will need to refresh all of the time. I don't know if I see "passe" as the consequence of innovation in our field, I think Venerated is more likely. Old school is what we all build on, so I am thinking that it will always be with us... For instance;
In the few demonstrations I have done, I STARTED out by mentioning that I was glad that "I'm not here to teach technique." Which wasn't true at all, and the fact that I said it out loud caused me to think about and use better technique in demos, but more importantly, in my day to day work (made me a better turner AND demonstrator - Thank You Nick Cook).
I think I have a couple of interesting ideas for building different segmented turning blanks, and the designs that I think will bring out the best in the blanks, but I couldn't have had the ideas without having some basic idea of how things work, and what has come before.

I encourage each of you to get out your crystal ball and give us your view of what you see down the road in the wonderful world of woodturning. Will market changes affect the sharing of techniques and ideas? What is the future for the itinerant demonstrators who have helped us grow as turners as they go around sharing their knowledge and the gospel of woodturning?

I have no idea how fast this field is growing, or who the "newbies" will be... I didn't start turning till I was in my 50's, and the bulk of the people I see coming into it seem to be at or near retirement. So there is probably already money available from that crew. I am guessing that most of them will have learned that the basics in life are what makes that to come easier, and will want to learn old school first.
Beyond that, any/every time you put money into the mix, people want it, and want to figure out how to get more of it (no matter how much they have)... SOooooo, demonstrations by "experts" will become more expensive, and out of reach for smaller clubs, the bush league/farm team guys (on the way up and down) will eek out a living and those just starting out will do about anything to get some attention, in hopes of "getting in on the action."

As a side note, I want to mention that I was ASTOUNDED and delighted at the ease with which turners as a whole have imparted their knowledge, wisdom and insight. It has made the art much more fun and very friendly. While I hope to make some money at it, I still intend to be as generous as the people I have met so far, and I hope that those to come keep up the spirit of what I think has really helped to make turning great.

 

[john lucas]

I had some fun thinking about and laughing at some of this. Interesting question. I love the thought of a Senior tour. The problem is the seniors only get better instead of losing ground like in golf. Besides that How can I call John Jordan and Clay foster seniors when I'm the same age. Very funny.
I think as long as we are open to sharing we create new turners who like to share. For one thing it boosts your ego to think you have some knowledge that others desire. I think that's natural. consequently I think we will always have a fairly good seed of new turning instructors.
When it comes to fees I think for local club demonstrators the best bet is to simply ask, would you demonstrate for us and how much would you charge. Most would probably not charge and that gives the professional in your club a chance to either do a freebie demo or charge the going rate. It's been my experience that the local pro will usually do a demo at no charge as long as you don't take advantage of them by asking them all the time or expecting an all day demo. Like I said, be upfront and give them the chance to respond the way they feel the most comfortable.
There's apparently a lot of money out there (I don't have it). Why else would a new turner buy a Oneway 2436 like one of our new club members. Because of this the big name turners can, and probably should, ask for more money. If they get too high their schedule will drop off and they will either have to quit demonstrating or make adjustments to their fee.

 

[Garmar]

The economy and simple supply and demand will answer most of the questions concerning fees. As far as where the "field of woodturning" will be in the future, look to the past. The passion, the art, the medium itself will continually be in flux, AND, the evolution/progression probably hasn't been imagined yet.

 

[Jake Debski]

I predict that we are going to see some changes in the woodturning landscape as the number of professionals and professional demonstrators increases. We have long enjoyed an open and shared environment and I feel that this is because the demand has greatly exceeded the supply. Clubs tend to range from 25 to 75 members (my guess) and they can afford one or maybe two pros a year. We are all aware of larger clubs, but they are the exception, I think. The number of clubs is increasing, but not as rapidly as the number of people hoping to do professional demonstrations. So, as the demand decreases and return engagements are limited, I expect the market to change. I wonder if it is going to be like professional golf and some older demonstrators will become passe' and then become part of a senior circuit, getting fewer demonstration opportunities.

The most pertinent facts have already been voiced on Ed's subject, club size, new directions of the art/craft, costs,etc. In house demonstrator's compensation doesn't have to be always a cash payment. Donated wood, gift certificates, cost reimbursement for printed materials, are some of the ways ways to express appreciation for their efforts.

It would be a mistake (my opinion) for a chapter program director to schedule only the "hot new big name pros" to do the clubs annual or simi-annual pro demo. Most clubs need a mix of solid, basic to intermediate, technique teaching as well as the "push the envelope" art demos. As has been mentioned, a good foundation is necessary. But also all members, newbe to advanced must be considered when booking a pro. So the "new hot shots" and the "old pro" will always have something to offer.

 

[John K Jordan]

... How can I call John Jordan and Clay foster seniors when I'm the same age. Very funny...

You must be ancient then. I always called the other John Jordan The Old One since we were the same age BUT he was born three months earlier!

Doesn't he look 3 months older than me here? (He stayed with us after a Knoxville demo in 2017 to avoid the return drive in the dark. I didn't clean up for him either.)
Miss the guy.


I somehow stumbled on this old thread...

JKJ

 

[Emiliano Achaval]

You must be ancient then. I always called the other John Jordan The Old One since we were the same age BUT he was born three months earlier!

Doesn't he look 3 months older than me here? (He stayed with us after a Knoxville demo in 2017 to avoid the return drive in the dark. I didn't clean up for him either.)
Miss the guy.
View attachment 77926

I somehow stumbled on this old thread...

JKJ

What a great memory. I, too, miss the old guy.

 

[Bill T Tucker]

Loved him...gruff on the outside hiding a warm and giving heart.

 

[hockenbery]

You must be ancient then. I always called the other John Jordan The Old One since we were the same age BUT he was born three months earlier!

I have many fond memories of John.
I met john 31 years ago when I was his room assistant at a mini symposium. In those day it was a dozen people standing around the lathe while John turned and talked.
25 years ago John stood in the back of the room when I did my first AAW demo.

 

[John K Jordan]

I have many fond memories of John.
I met john 31 years ago when I was his room assistant at a mini symposium

When a new turner nearly 25 years ago an artist friend told me all I had to do was sign my name on my turnings and they would sell like crazy. I'd never heard of him because I started in isolation, teaching myself.

When I found out about turning clubs and went to the one in Knoxville visitors had to stand up and introduce themselves. When I did, a woman sitting in front of me turned around and asked "Are you THE John Jordan from Nashville?" When I said no, she said "Are you SURE?" HA!

With the same name we have of course been confused at times - once someone sent me a special custom tool and someone sent him a carving intended for me. I told him no one had ever sent me any of his money. Don't understand how we could be confused - he said he was the better looking John but of course, I am.

Since then I've taken met up with him at various demos (he did a hollow form demo on the sidewalk outside the Knoxville Museum of Art - gave me one of his hollow form blanks, ready to turn), at a class with Clay Foster at Appalachian Center for Craft, and at various symposiums.


In the snow at TAW in 2010 (Doug Thompson, JJ, John. Lucas, me)

And at the last picture I took of of him, the NC symposium with Melissa and Graeme Priddle:
(Sorry, I posted this picture before but I like it.)

I sent them home with JKJ magic wands.

JKJ

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I've wondered how many turners actually make a living strictly with their turnings. I knew one in the PNW who almost did. He did individual pieces, but mostly production runs along with restoration millwork. Another was a full time metal spinner, his only wood turning was in making molds to spin over.

It's getting to be acceptable in the art world to have someone else do the actual pieces with artist's participation being design only. I've done that for artists in wood, metal and glass. That's okay.

It appears a good many talented turners also are equipment dealers to supplement their incomes. Perfectly fine.

There's a saying , "if you can't make a living at your chosen profession teach". Certainly nothing wrong with teaching. I am a little skeptical when I hear teachers sometimes say they're just "paying it forward".

 

[John K Jordan]

Another was a full time metal spinner, his only wood turning was in making molds to spin over.

Long ago a metal spinner did a demo at our club. Fascinating. I think he said he made money selling mutes for brass instruments. He didn't say if he made good money at it or had to eat crackers for dinner and wash dishes to survive.

 

[Bill Blasic]

When I started turning my visions were coming from books and DVDs. I think I might have worn out John's DVD. I was really excited to be able to see him at the 2005 Ohio Valley Symposium. Boy was I disappointed at his first demo, it was almost word for word like his DVD. But still I always went to any demo he was doing. That was a memorable Symposium for me as not only John was there but also Richard Raffan, Jimmy Clewes, Ray Key, Chris Stott, J. Paul Fennel and Chris Ramsey. What a Symposium!

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I've wondered how many turners actually make a living strictly with their turnings. I knew one in the PNW who almost did. He did individual pieces, but mostly production runs along with restoration millwork. Another was a full time metal spinner, his only wood turning was in making molds to spin over.

It's getting to be acceptable in the art world to have someone else do the actual pieces with artist's participation being design only. I've done that for artists in wood, metal and glass. That's okay.

It appears a good many talented turners also are equipment dealers to supplement their incomes. Perfectly fine.

There's a saying , "if you can't make a living at your chosen profession teach". Certainly nothing wrong with teaching. I am a little skeptical when I hear teachers sometimes say they're just "paying it forward".

@Odie has said he doesn't make enough to live on. Given the quality of his work and the prices he can get, that surprised me a bit. It's reality, though. My guess is that production turners, when they find the right outlet, probably can make a living at it. On the other end of the spectrum are folks like Gordon Pembridge who charge thousands per piece. For the rest of us, we can hope to offset much of our costs, at best. Here is Gordon's Tsavo Sunset 2. $8,000 It should be noted that Gordon is a phenomenal painter in addition to his turnings.

 

[John K Jordan]

I've wondered how many turners actually make a living strictly with their turnings.

I don't think I'd want to make a living at turning. I want a hobby, a creative outlet, not a job. I retired in 2006 and I don't want another job!

Pieces the other John Jordan, the late, famous one made, are in hands of museums and collectors all over the world. Most are apparently his distinctive carved hollow forms. I saw some in a gallery were priced at $6000 and up. It was a job, but he said he loved it. I suspect he made enough to live on.

Some other artists I know sell things for huge amounts of money. One friend said one of his pieces sold for $15,000! The problem is there is not a reliable market for pieces like that - most sit in high-end galleries unsold until he has to go bring them home. An amazing painter we know has the same problem - makes wonderful art but needs a real job to pay the expenses. I'd LOVE to have one of her pieces but I can't possibly afford it.

Now I don't mind a little compensation at times - I have accidentally made a few thousand a time or two. But some I know and have heard of who's work pays for their time are production turners making basically the same things over and over again. And one guy in particular was so focused on making to sell it seemed to me he was missing some of the joy of life.

JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

I used to "accept" money for demos. I don't any more. I do it just for fun. Part of why I do my videos. Not to make a living at it, but to have fun. Also, for "educational" purposes. I guess I could have gone the "professional" route, but I have no sense for running a business....

robo hippy

 

[Ted Pelfrey]

Started out making turkey hunting calls. Loved making them. So locals started noticing and I started selling some. Not bad, but when the custom orders started coming in, I grew to dread it. I had turned my hobby into a second job. Haven’t sold one since. Now if someone bought something I had already made fine but no custom work for me. Do the demos for fun and to help out our clubs. Now if they have to travel than pay them.

 

[Ted Pelfrey]

Started out making turkey hunting calls. Loved making them. So locals started noticing and I started selling some. Not bad, but when the custom orders started coming in, I grew to dread it. I had turned my hobby into a second job. Haven’t sold one since. Now if someone bought something I had already made fine but no custom work for me. Do the demos for fun and to help out our clubs. Now if they have to travel than pay them.

Rereading my reply it seems that I’m opposed to paying demonstrators . That’s not the case at all. There’s a ton of work in demoing that most never see . There’s travel expenses , etc. Pay them. I’m opposed to me creating a second job from my hobby. Hope that clears that up.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

I'm all for paying demonstrators. I'm also very grateful for the folks who donate their time. One demonstrator I have seen a few times has a family with young kids. For a demonstrator like that, I would insist he take the money whether he wants it or not.

 

[John K Jordan]

I encourage each of you to get out your crystal ball and give us your view of what you see down the road

Re-reading this thread, I got out my crystal ball. It wasn't helpful.



I note one thing: when contacting pro past demonstrators I found that some of our older reliable demonstrators had quit as they got older. Some had health problems, one I talked to yesterday provided daily care to his wife which limited travel. A couple didn't respond to phone or email. Maybe they didn't like me or were too busy. Some apparently offer virtual demos only - nice but not as nice as coming in person.

The future?? In talking to some, I get the feeling things are moving away from single-evening demos to multi-day workshops and classes, not at one of craft schools but at the club location. However, not every club has enough of the right kind of lathe.

Some of the clubs I know of are loaded with money and can easily pay.
We always pay "pro" demonstrators who come, either for a single meeting demo or for an added workshop, pay what they ask.
We don't pay skilled club members for demos but might if they asked.
We offer to pay skilled members of other area clubs. I don't handle the money so I don't know if they all take it.

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My own experience: I would never expect payment for a club where I'm a member.
When traveling, if asked, I let them decide - I've been given amounts from gas money to $100s. Some clubs from out of state provided food, housing, AND money. None of it matters to me. For me it's the joy of it and the chance of "infecting" someone with an idea or a new skill. The real payback is when I see or find out how many people came back with turnings the next month or so!

BTW, for local demos I find the participation higher where I provide blanks to anyone who wants them so they can work on the idea while the memory is fresh. I also think good handouts are helpful.

I'm doing a club demo soon in Knoxville on my handbell ornaments, scheduled to allow enough time for people to make them for an annual Christmas event that benefits the children's hospital. It's kind of a detailed project and does require some spindle turning, but there was a good response at several clubs in the past. (I hollow with a parting tool - simple in end grain.) These are Christmas tree sizes similar to the much larger bells used by handbell choirs. (Never heard a good handbell choir - you're missing an amazing experience!)

I'll bring dry blanks cut to size for anyone who wants them.



JKJ

 

[robo hippy]

Our club gets Carl Jacobson and Jimmy Allen of D Way demonstrating about once a year. They sell product, and they don't charge for their appearances. I did the same when I had a business.

robo hippy