Pistache (Pistachio) lumber questions

[mfaughn]

Hi all,

I am looking for information on the workability and such of Pistache wood. What little I've come across on the web seems to be that it is used for turnery and knife scales and such. As such, I figured somebody here might know something about the stuff.

I am also very interested in how it behaves when going from timber to lumber.

There is a chance that I may be given a few boles from some very large pistache trees. I want to know if it would be worth it to try and do anything with them (I'm not really set up to deal with them). They aren't Pistacia vera (the tree the nuts come from). I am pretty sure that they are instead Pistacia atlantica, a tree that is used for rootstock and as a pollinator for P. vera. It appears that the heartwood is the stuff that is of interest. Most of what I saw of P. vera wood was small stuff because the trees don't get very big. These trees would yield much larger slabs of heartwood.

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on all this or knows where a better place to inquire might be.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Rob Wallace]

Proceed with caution!

Hello Mike!

Just a word of caution with respect to the health concerns when using this wood. The various pistachio species in genus Pistacia are members of the plant Family Anacardiaceae. In this same family is the genus Toxicodendron, that includes poision ivy, poison oak, and poison sumac which are the most famous members of this family that produce mild to very severe contact dermatitis in susceptible individuals. True sumacs (genus Rhus) have also been known to produce (often milder) cases of contact dermatitis, usually fropm the hairs (trichomes) found on stems and leaves.

Regardless of which wood from a member of the Anacardiaceae you might put on your lathe, the possibility is there, at some level of risk, that adverse reactions might result, particularly if you have been previously sensitized (Do you eat a lot of cashews? Pistachios? Have you had a case of poison ivy any time previously?) to anacardioid compounds. (I hope to talk about this aspect of diverse woods used in woodturning if my demonstration proposal is approved for the Portland AAW Symposium next year.)

At the very least, you should wear very good respiratory protection, and hopefully have an efficient dust removal system. Further, you probably should minimize direct skin contact with the shavings and/or dust, since exposures of this kind can have cumulative immunologiocal effects over time.

There are some very pretty woods from members of the Anacardiaceae (e.g. goncalo alves, chechen, mango), but I don't know much more about specific working properties and toxiciy of Pistacia. Nonetheless, I would proceed with caution, perhaps even more than I would for rosewoods, due to the demonstrated toxicity of many members of the Anacardiaceae.

I hope this has helped with gathering some information about this wood, and even more so..... I hope it might save you from a trip to the emergency room!

Turn safely....

(Prof.) Rob Wallace [Botanist, Iowa State University]

 

[Richard Baker]

Cashews?

Prof. Rob,
Are you suggesting that eating a lot of cashews can sensitize a person to certain kind(s) of wood? Maybe I should stay away from the 3 chinese pistache trees in the yard?

 

[Rob Wallace]

Respect the wood, don't fear it!

Prof. Rob,
Are you suggesting that eating a lot of cashews can sensitize a person to certain kind(s) of wood? Maybe I should stay away from the 3 chinese pistache trees in the yard?

Howdy Texian!

Yes, even small amounts of plant material can sensitize individuals which can elicit immune responses when the same or similar plant compounds come in contact with the body (e.g. Note the increasing incidence of "peanut allergies" in children today!)

If sensitive individuals ingest even small amounts of the compounds that cause immune response over extended periods of time, depending on the agent and the state of the immune system, you can become sensitized to various organic toxins, which will elicit an immune response - a rash, itching, swelling, or in some severe cases, anaphylaxis. If you are a cashew or pistachio eater, or have gotten poison ivy, and you are a "sensitive" individual (....that is, your body's immune chemistry is sensitive; this has nothing to do with your personality, or ability to sit through a "chick flick"!), it may be possible to subsequently have a reaction to compounds derived from related woods to these species which may contain the same or similar compounds that sensitized you! My sister has allergies to several kinds of nuts (pecan, walnut), and even in very small amounts, ingestion of these causes swelling of her lips and tongue, and swelling of the pharynx causing difficult breathing - not a pretty sight. This means that people should be aware of this phenomenon, and when there is a possibility of encountering 'insult' from possibly toxic wood dust, know that there could be a reaction.

All this means is that you should take extra precautions with woods that have known toxic effects, or are related to plants of known toxicity. That pistache wood is in the same family as poison ivy, and this information should give a wise woodturner the tip to treat this wood with a bit more respect than cherry or maple, and give yourself some additional protection while turning (....this will be one of my messages if I do a demo at the AAW Symposium next summer in Portland.).

Turn safely,

Rob Wallace

 

[dkulze]

I'll back up Rob in pointing out the cumulative toxicity and allergic reactions to wood compounds. I've been turning more seriously for about 6 years now and have gone from no reaction at all to dust (other than those great, multicolored boogers) to growing sensitivity to several woods. If I'm not attentive, working with soft maple and box elder give me sinisitis in a snap.

Strangely enough, the woods alot of folks have problems with, like the cocobolos (major rashes), aromatic cedar (nosebleeds and rashes), and other exotics really don't bother me. Yet.

What the body does, over time with exposure, is to begin to identify the compounds it's being exposed to as dangerous. It then sets up a physical reaction to deal with them, and it's when this becomes a cascading, out of control reaction thats the problem.

It's kinda hit or miss on which ones it latches on to this way but some are much more commonly reacted to than others. What most folks don't know is that you don't get a reaction from poison ivy the first time you encounter it. You get it the second, third, fourth, etc.

dietrich

 

[woodwish]

Ill back Rob on this also. At first no wood was bothering me but once I got a slight reastion to some cocobola. A few weeks later I turned some more and tried to be careful with keeping the dust off me, but it didn't matter. I broke out in a bad rash that took a long time to clear up. After it cleared up I got rid of all my stash of rosewoods and cocobolas, using gloves and other measures thinking I was safe. So far so good, and then I emptied the dust collector bags that must have still had the sawdust in it. Rash was worse this time but it did eventually clear after a lot $$$ at a doctor's office. Without the knowledge of the cashew>rosewood connection I ate a bag of cashews, and long story short I ended up in the ER. After some research I found that cashes and pistachio are in the same family so I will stay clear, not being able to breath is not a good feeling. I really thought I was having a heart attack. Sure wish I had the benefit of Rob's advice several years ago.

Another question for Prof. Rob- Are vanilla beans in the same family? Trying to track down the reaction I had to some real vanilla ice cream, and the cheap imitation vanilla does not bother me.

 

[Rob Wallace]

Vanilla is from Orchids!

Another question for Prof. Rob- Are vanilla beans in the same family? Trying to track down the reaction I had to some real vanilla ice cream, and the cheap imitation vanilla does not bother me.[/QUOTE]

I can answer Woodwish Ray's 'plain vanilla' question..... True, "real" or "pure" vanilla comes from the fruits of a vining orchid plant, Vanilla planifolia, originally from southen Mexico and Central America, but now most vanilla is grown in Madagascar. The fruits are harvested before they are ripe, and then "sweatted" in canvas bags in the sun, where they turn blackish brown during a so-called "fermentation" or curing. They are then air-dried quickly without heating, and passed-on to distributors and packagers. Imitation vanilla is a mixture of various soluble and aromatic compounds that are synthesized chemically (i.e. there are no organic compunds derived from orchid fruit sources), but the flavor chemists have worked out mixtures of these synthetic chemicals, which are predominantly compounds called monoterpenes, most notably the terpene known as 'vanillin' (duh!) that can approximate the overall true vanilla flavor. "Real vanilla extract" is made by soaking vanilla "beans" in an aqueous solution of alcohol, and contains complex mixtures of major and minor components which gives a full flavor profile. Imitation vanilla costs far less than real vanilla products since the large amount of labor costs involved in produing real vanilla is not needed with the blending of the synthetic compounds to approximate the real flavor. (Next to saffron, vanilla is the second most expensive spice to produce, due primarily to labor costs).
I suspect that since there was real vanilla in the ice cream giving you the reaction, you may have been previously sensitized to some compounds (perhaps terpenes?) found in the vanilla used to flavor the ice cream. Alternatively, it may not have been the vanilla at all, but compounds found in the place doing the manufacturing of the ice cream, that are minor ingredients or components of the manufacturing process. These may be contaminants, such as nut extracts or nut particles (walnuts, peanuts, almonds, etc.) used in the manufacturing and/or packaging process of other flavors. A surprizing number of baked or processed food use nut pastes, which also can cause allregic responses. If you feel like a Guinea pig, a test would be to obtain some real vanilla without the ice cream and see if the same reaction results.... I've not heard of many vanilla allergies, but "residual" or collateral contamination of manufacturing processes where nuts are used is quite common - hence the FDA required statement on some product packaging where use of nuts in the facility is required to be disclosed with statements such as: "Nuts are used in the faciltity processing this product".

BTW - There is no direct cashew - rosewood connection, at least with respect to the plants. Cashews, poison ivy, sumacs, etc. are in the Sumac family (Anacardiaceae) and the rosewoods (genus Dalbergia) are in the Legume (Bean) family (Fabaceae, AKA the Leguminosae). There may be some common plant oils between them, and these may have caused the allergic response leading to your ER visit. Depending upon your level of sensitization, it may be possible that the responses may not be to specific compounds, but to any compound that is a member of the general general chemical class of compounds - it gets really complex from here!

I hope (if you're still awake after this 'lecture') that I've answered your questons....

Cheers,

Rob Wallace

 

[mfaughn]

Vanilla is an orchid...so, no not in the same family.

It is also good to err on the side of caution. Just because it is in the same family as a couple of other genera that have some nasty compounds doesn't mean that it will also be problematic though does it? There are plenty of instances of harmless plants being in the same family as those producing irritants or other undesirable compounds (for humans that is). Then again, pistachio allergies aren't unheard of (including anaphylaxis).

Other members of genus Pistacia are used as foods...P. chinense reportedly has edible leaves. P. lentiscus is the source of mastic which is one of the original chewing gums and is still widely used in food. Anacardiaciaceae has 72 genera. I know that at least two of which produce urushiol (i.e. the icky stuff in poison ivy/sumac/oak and in the flesh of the cashew fruit). Am I wrong in thinking that urushiol is not something that is typically characterized as an allergen but rather an irritant or toxin because it pretty much will get any and everybody in the end. Sooner or later you will get poison ivy if you are around it enough or you were to inhale smoke from burning poison ivy or something. I don't think this is true with things like peanuts and dog dander.

So anyway...it is either Mt. Atlas Pistachio, P. atlanticus, or Chinese Pistache, P. chinense, not P. vera where the nuts come from.

Anyone got a clue about this stuff other than it might or might not make some folks feel icky?

-Mike

 

[Rob Wallace]

It is also good to err on the side of caution. Just because it is in the same family as a couple of other genera that have some nasty compounds doesn't mean that it will also be problematic though does it. There are plenty of instances of harmless plants being in the same family as those producing irritants or other undesirable compounds (for humans that is). Then again, pistachio allergies aren't unheard of (including anaphylaxis).

This is correct - an easy example is that of the Bean Family - Despite the fact that the normally toxic Rosewoods are in this family (Dalbergia), we still can safely ingest green beans, lentils, soybeans, peanuts (?), tamrinds, Lima beans, etc. which have likely been selected through domestication to produce small amounts, if any, of possibly toxic compounds. The peanut example is one that provides evidence of differential sensitivity between individuals in the human population. The point is that knowing the relationships between potentially toxic woods and known toxic woods can better prepare the turner to avoid possible problems in the future.

Anyone got a clue about this stuff other than it might or might not make some folks feel icky?

I checked about a dozen books in my personal wood identification library, and the only mention of Pistacia I found was in the Record & Hess, [1943] volume of Timbers of the New World, from which I quote below (page 46):

"Pistacia. There are several species in the Old World and one in America. P. vera L. of the Mediterranean region and western Asia, is the source of Pistachio nuts of commerce and is extensively cultivated. Mastic is the resinous exudate from the branches of P. lentiscus L., another Mediterranean tree; it is uused medicinally and for varnish. the Cyprus Turpentine tree is P. terebinthus L. the American species is P. mexicana H.B.K., a small evergreen tree, occasionally to 30 feet high, with a short trunk 15 to 18 inches in diameter, or more often a large shrub, growing from Western Texas through Mexico to Guatemala. The leaves are odd-pinnate, with 9 to 29 small, nearly sessile leaflets; the little flowers are borne in axillary panicles; the fruits are small, nearly dry, purplish drupes with edible seeds. A resin exudes from the branches. There are no specimens of the wood in the Yale collections. COMMON NAMES: Pistache (Texas); almacigo, lantrisco, ramo'n, yagagueiguei (Mex.)"

A Google search of 'Pistache wood' puts this tread as the number one link returned in the search!

For other links on Chinese pistachio.......

A look at:
http://ag.arizona.edu/yavapai/anr/hort/byg/archive/chinesepistache.html .....states that the wood is very hard and rot resistant.

This reference:
http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Pistacia+chinensis&CAN=COMIND

states "Wood - hard, durable. Used in furniture making and carpentry"

Also check out:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ST482

FWIW, I'd probably avoid skin contact with the resin from the wood/branches, just to play it safe!

An interesting thread overall -

Cheers!

Rob Wallace

 

[Richard Baker]

Mike's Original Question

So, working our way back to Mike's original question; as many have written, almost any free wood is good wood until proven otherwise. Abundantly warned and with appropriate protective gear in place, give it a try. Might be some wonderful stuff, unlike a couple pieces of willow I just turned.

My sweetie uses "Chinese Pistache" trees (among many shrubs and trees) in her landscaping business, primarily because of their hardiness and drought tolerance. They're fairly unimpressive for a few years, but eventually develop into some very attractive shade trees with interesting foliage. We have 2 or 3 around the house and have never noticed if they bear any sort of fruit or nuts. They are probably a nut-less cultivar developed specifically for landscape use.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Lot of fine-sounding information here, perhaps it might help in sorting it out to note that sensitivity and local reaction to the chemicals in wood dust have not much to do with allergy and the (IgE) systemic reaction to the proteins ingested with the nuts or fruits. Suspected oil allergies and sensitivities are quickly discovered to be related to what's dissolved in them, so far as I am able to search.

Classes of chemicals used by trees for protection against insects,fungi and other foliage tend to be similar, so sensitivity to the class of chemicals rather than a specific chemical is usually the culprit in dermatitis and rhinitis. You don't normally get a rash or runny nose from terpene X, but from terpenes of the chemical family Y.

Systemic, immune-system mediated reactions on the other hand tend to be very narrow, and most of the time they stay that way. The "Big Eight" (allergists aren't football fans, or there would be ten) of allergies running from milk to wheat tend to occur one at a time, though common proteins across the grain or nut spectrum sometimes bring the same reaction. They can also build in severity and speed as the number of exposures increase. We'd have lost a neighbor to a sting if I hadn't been home this summer. Thirty minutes wait for an ambulance and epinepherine would probably have done for her. Only her third generalized reaction, too.

With little protein available save in the fruit, reaction to the sap and leaves may be irritating, but not life-threatening. A good charcoal filter will take care of most vapor organics, and long sleeves deflect most dust if you feel you must turn a specific wood, though I prefer to follow the wisdom of the old joke and avoid what hurts me altogether. In other words, it's more the quantity than the quality of the chemical that counts in sensitivities, and sensitivities don't lead to IgE allergies. The class of allergies described as non-IgE probably deserve another name, but crossover from irritant to immune reaction seems minimal there as well.

 

[dkulze]

The other thing to keep in mind about dermititis and skin reactions is that some of the allergins/irritants will remain in the skin and inert. Exposure to the irritant again can cause flare ups not only in the spot that was exposed but in spots previously exposed. An example is that every time I get poison ivy anywhere, I flare up on my left wrist and ankle where I've been exposed multiple times.

Another example is a club member who looked like a strawberry from head to toe after trying to turn Cocobolo "again" when he had had a previous reaction to the dust. He wore long sleeves and used dust protection but some got through and he lit up like Rudolph's nose.

Fun, fun, fun.

Dietrich

 

[Don O. Jr.]

Outstanding!!

This forum, and others, never cease to amaze me! Ask a simple question and several genuine experts respond with incredible information sincerely meant to protect us from ourselves ("free" wood?) and increase our enjoyment of our woodturning. Simply astounding! Thank you all so much for all the wonderful education.

 

[mfaughn]

Thanks!!

Wow. So nice to have so many smart folks around. Thanks very much, 'specially Robb. I had googled quite a lot and still not come up with much. Every little bit helps. It was particularly good to see refs to larger P. chinense as what I'd seen earlier suggested it maxed out at ~10m height.

Now all I have to do is see if I can have the trees and figure out how to handle them. I haven't any experience dealing with so much timber at once. I really can't use it and am planning to move to a different state withing a year but I can't stand the idea of it all going to the landfill, which is what will happen if I don't take the stuff. Argghhh.

Cheers,
Mike

 

[Rob Wallace]

Mike Wrote:

Now all I have to do is see if I can have the trees and figure out how to handle them. I haven't any experience dealing with so much timber at once. I really can't use it and am planning to move to a different state withing a year but I can't stand the idea of it all going to the landfill, which is what will happen if I don't take the stuff. Argghhh.

Mike: This is where your woodturner friends come in - invite them over (with accompanying chain saws, anchorseal, etc.), make a plan to ensure that everyone cuts safely, and let the blades spin! Have a "blank-fest" and cut up the stuff as a coordinated group! If you can't use it all, and it's going to go to waste, share your "wealth" now and they'll share their windfalls (literally) with you in the future!

Rob Wallace

 

[Richard Baker]

Save The Wood From Landfill

Great suggestion, Rob! Was going to suggest a "beer bust" AFTER the chainsawing, and with suitable arrangements for some sober driving home.

Mike, you might want to save a few small pieces for yourself and maybe for some new woodturner friends at your new location.