Ray Key Finishing Protocol and depth gauge

[Chris Hoehle]

I just watched the Ray Key box videos posted by CSUSA. He had an interesting finishing schedule that consisted (as near as I can tell from the videos) of sanding to 400 with some kind of wax as a sanding lubricant (he said it reduced heat and scratch marks), polishing with 0000 steel wool with the same wax as a lubricant, then applying (what I think was) lacquer based sanding sealer on the lathe, using heat to dry it quickly, then cutting back the sheen with 0000 steel wool, then finishing wax over that. Seems like an interesting protocol that I'd like to try. Timestamp link to one instance of the protocol:

View: https://youtu.be/PTZemwWM2mE?si=OfwKZRV1pzYhkTuQ&t=531


Questions:

Does anyone know more about the wax used for sanding lubricant? (He refers to it simply as "paste wax" and the labels of everything are strategically facing away from the camera in the videos).

Is the lacquer product used a sanding sealer?

Anyone have a bead on where to get a depth gauge with a nice wide base like the one shown here?:

View: https://youtu.be/PTZemwWM2mE?si=gDUvnF0h_51cQbS7&t=501


As an interesting aside, I have one of Ray's tools. He taught at Arrowmont so much that he just left a set there, and in 2016 when it became apparent he wouldn't be able to make it back out, he asked Nick Agar to sell them off to the class that was there at the time. I was in that class and picked up a very well worn scraper- a wonderful piece of history and inspiration for me to carry the craft of box-making forward!

 

[robo hippy]

Well, I don't really know what the wax is. There are many 'wax' finishes. To me, the best ones would be carnauba of some sort. I use Butchers bowling alley wax, and they have another variation. Kiwi neutral shoe polish is carnauba in turpentine. Carnauba, because it is very hard, needs heat and/or a solvent to get it to spread. I am surprised that he used a lacquer over the paste wax as I would think it would not stick to the wax surface. For the insides of my boxes, I prefer the Bull's Eye lacquer which can be found at almost any big box store. It dries instantly and with pretty much no odor after drying. A couple of coats.

robo hippy

 

[Chris Hoehle]

I am surprised that he used a lacquer over the paste wax as I would think it would not stick to the wax surface

Thanks, Reed. That was what was kind of surprising to me too for the same reason so I thought I'd see if it was some kind of special wax or something I didn't know about. I freely admit that finishing is what I know the least about. I have my 2 or 3 things that I like and that work well for me so I thought it would be fun to try something else. Good to know about the Bull's Eye lacquer, I'll maybe give that a try as well.

 

[Dave Landers]

IDK, but it kinda looked to me like he was mixing a sort of a polish in-place - mixing the wax and lacquer on the piece - that may be why it works vs something like spraying lacquer over wax. But I really don't know.

 

[Isaac Fisher]

I think the lacquer was shellac, or a mix of shellac and nitrocellulose lacquer.

 

[Jim Reynolds]

To your depth finder question:
Trent Bosch makes depth finders with wide bases. Here is a link to a 12" version.
I'd be tempted to try and cobble something up from this Harbor Freight Technical Measuring Set. I'd probably start by trying to add a broader base to the depth finder. I will be taking my own advice, when I get around to it.

 

[Tom Lucas]

The can looks like maybe Yorkshire Grit or Pita's True Grit. I used True Grit because it is cheaper than the Yorkshire. Creates a nice polished surface that can be overcoated with just about anything.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Alright let me jump in....

Here is the depth gauge he used. I use this one for all of my boxes and it works very well.

Turners Select Protractor/Depth Gauge

The Turners Select™ Protractor/Depth Gague is indispensable for setting bevels on tools, measuring and transferring angles and checking the depth of boxes and other small items. The graduated arm and protractor feature etched numbers on a hard chrome finish that will last a lifetime. Protractor-...

woodturnerscatalog.com

Also with the finishing process, he uses paste wax as a sanding lubricant but I don't know the brand.

He uses CraftLac Melamine Lacquer for the inside finish. It is not a sanding sealer. They don't make it anymore but here is an alternative.

Mylands Melamine Lacquer

Mylands® Melamine Lacquer is quick drying, durable, hard wearing and is easily applied with the lathe running. It produces a semi-gloss finish that resists moisture and heat. This is an ideal finish for small turnings such as pens, boxes, spindles and small items in general. For best results...

woodturnerscatalog.com

Also if the wax is buffed well enough, lacquer can be used over it. I do this all the time and NEVER had it peel.

Here is a link on how I explain my process.... read the whole comments section..

Figured Mexican Bocote Reverse Curve Box

On this box I really wanted to try out the reverse curve feature. It is a new shape but still with some of my signature details, such as the slight undercut rim, small base and domed lid. Turned from figured Mexican Bocote (Cordia Spp.) this...

www.aawforum.org

 

[Chris Hoehle]

Thanks for that lead on the lacquer Gabriel. However the depth gauge he is using is quite different, the base is much wider- take a closer look at the video and you'll see what I mean.

 

[hockenbery]

However the depth gauge he is using is quite different, the base is much wider-

Trent Bosch has a wide based depth gauge so it self squares to the rim.
We all made a similar ones from wood in a Liam O’Neil class in 1994. We put a dowel through one hole for measuring.
Added a short dowel in an off set cross hole with the cove in its center section deep enough to allow the measuring dowel through its hole. This short dowel locks the measuring dowel in place by pushing it on either end until it binds at the edge of the cove.

12″ Depth Finder – Trent Bosch Tools

trentboschtools.com

 

[Chris Hoehle]

Thanks, Al and Jim for the recommendation of the Trent Bosch gauge, that does look like a nice one. I'm interested in it not so much for the depth gauge aspect (holding a pencil in there and closing one eye has always worked fine for me), but because it appears to have some potential as an alternate method for checking the paralellism of the lid flange (assuming the rod is square to a base that is long enough to hit both sides of the rim).

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Thanks for that lead on the lacquer Gabriel. However the depth gauge he is using is quite different, the base is much wider- take a closer look at the video and you'll see what I mean.

I do see that Chris. I thought the CS USA one was close enough because it does work well for me!

 

[Chris Hoehle]

Cool, well thanks again for your response Gabriel, it was interesting to read that you too haven't had trouble applying the lacquer over the polish. And yes, I will probably just go with that gauge or similar, but I see something that I can't find and I get curious since usually my Google fu is pretty good!

 

[odie]

I have several depth gauges that are homemade. You could easily make one using scrap materials you already have.

See post #78 here:

Useful shop gadgets.....shop, and "evolving shop" photos......

I tried longer depth drills until I saw Richard Raffan use a short one. Here is mine with a standard size 1/4" drill bit with a few notches to note depth. I use this for shallow bowls but mostly for doing boxes. Probably for 90% of my depth drill tasks. No ferrule since I don't put any lateral...

www.aawforum.org

Note: The linked thread also has many other homemade shop tools and gadgets that might interest quite a few new, and even maybe a few seasoned turners!

-o-

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

I am curious what kind of Chuck he was using. Never seen one like that before.

 

[Darryl Fective]

I am curious what kind of Chuck he was using. Never seen one like that before.

Looked more like a chuck for a metal lathe. I had heard that was a thing for the early woodturners.

 

[Dean Center]

The paste wax appears to be Briwax.

 

[Bill Alston]

I am curious what kind of Chuck he was using. Never seen one like that before.

He mentioned in the video that it’s an engineering chuck. These are normally supplied with both inside and outside jaws, he’s using outside jaws in this case. There isn’t much difference between an engineering scroll chuck and a wood turning one. The first scroll chucks sold to wood turners by Axminster tools were actually just engineering chucks with specially designed top jaws.

 

[Graham Dolby]

I think that when Ray Key made those videos, 4-jaw chucks were not available. There were various types of collet chuck in use such as the one that Raffan used and those made by Myford and
Peter Child. However, most were "fiddly" to use and Ray was a production turner.

 

[Bill Alston]

I think that when Ray Key made those videos, 4-jaw chucks were not available. There were various types of collet chuck in use such as the one that Raffan used and those made by Myford and
Peter Child. However, most were "fiddly" to use and Ray was a production turner.

They were available but no one thought to use them until Axminster in the 1980’s? Engineering chucks have been available with two part jaws for decades so I don’t know why it took so long for someone to make wood gripping jaws before?

I’ve seen more than a few videos shot in the far east of wood turners using standard engineering scroll chucks with “special” jaws welded to them. Some of them were even three jaw versions.

 

[Graham Dolby]

Thanks, Reed. That was what was kind of surprising to me too for the same reason so I thought I'd see if it was some kind of special wax or something I didn't know about. I freely admit that finishing is what I know the least about. I have my 2 or 3 things that I like and that work well for me so I thought it would be fun to try something else. Good to know about the Bull's Eye lacquer, I'll maybe give that a try as well.

Alright let me jump in....

Here is the depth gauge he used. I use this one for all of my boxes and it works very well.

Turners Select Protractor/Depth Gauge

The Turners Select™ Protractor/Depth Gague is indispensable for setting bevels on tools, measuring and transferring angles and checking the depth of boxes and other small items. The graduated arm and protractor feature etched numbers on a hard chrome finish that will last a lifetime. Protractor-...

woodturnerscatalog.com

Also with the finishing process, he uses paste wax as a sanding lubricant but I don't know the brand.

He uses CraftLac Melamine Lacquer for the inside finish. It is not a sanding sealer. They don't make it anymore but here is an alternative.

Mylands Melamine Lacquer

Mylands® Melamine Lacquer is quick drying, durable, hard wearing and is easily applied with the lathe running. It produces a semi-gloss finish that resists moisture and heat. This is an ideal finish for small turnings such as pens, boxes, spindles and small items in general. For best results...

woodturnerscatalog.com

Also if the wax is buffed well enough, lacquer can be used over it. I do this all the time and NEVER had it peel.

Here is a link on how I explain my process.... read the whole comments section..

Figured Mexican Bocote Reverse Curve Box

On this box I really wanted to try out the reverse curve feature. It is a new shape but still with some of my signature details, such as the slight undercut rim, small base and domed lid. Turned from figured Mexican Bocote (Cordia Spp.) this...

www.aawforum.org

I've been reluctant to try using paste-wax or Yorkshire Grit as it did not make sense that one could apply a lacquer over it.
I'll have to give it a try as I have a can of Myland's.

 

[Graham Dolby]

I just watched the Ray Key box videos posted by CSUSA. He had an interesting finishing schedule that consisted (as near as I can tell from the videos) of sanding to 400 with some kind of wax as a sanding lubricant (he said it reduced heat and scratch marks), polishing with 0000 steel wool with the same wax as a lubricant, then applying (what I think was) lacquer based sanding sealer on the lathe, using heat to dry it quickly, then cutting back the sheen with 0000 steel wool, then finishing wax over that. Seems like an interesting protocol that I'd like to try. Timestamp link to one instance of the protocol:

View: https://youtu.be/PTZemwWM2mE?si=OfwKZRV1pzYhkTuQ&t=531


Questions:

Does anyone know more about the wax used for sanding lubricant? (He refers to it simply as "paste wax" and the labels of everything are strategically facing away from the camera in the videos).

Is the lacquer product used a sanding sealer?

Anyone have a bead on where to get a depth gauge with a nice wide base like the one shown here?:

View: https://youtu.be/PTZemwWM2mE?si=gDUvnF0h_51cQbS7&t=501


As an interesting aside, I have one of Ray's tools. He taught at Arrowmont so much that he just left a set there, and in 2016 when it became apparent he wouldn't be able to make it back out, he asked Nick Agar to sell them off to the class that was there at the time. I was in that class and picked up a very well worn scraper- a wonderful piece of history and inspiration for me to carry the craft of box-making forward!

That wasn't a depth gauge. That was a tool he was using to check that the top 5mm or so was parallel to the axis so that the lid would fit perfectly.
I use the internal jaws of digital calipers for the same reason.

 

[Tom Gall]

They were available but no one thought to use them until Axminster in the 1980’s? Engineering chucks have been available with two part jaws for decades so I don’t know why it took so long for someone to make wood gripping jaws before?

I’ve seen more than a few videos shot in the far east of wood turners using standard engineering scroll chucks with “special” jaws welded to them. Some of them were even three jaw versions.

Early on I used a 6" body 3-jaw chuck (Grizzly @ $50) for six years. I then bought a Nova 4-jaw (with tommy bars) when they first became available in the USA (1990?) from Craft Supplies USA. Rarely used the Grizzly after that purchase.

 

[Bill Alston]

I've been reluctant to try using paste-wax or Yorkshire Grit as it did not make sense that one could apply a lacquer over it.
I'll have to give it a try as I have a can of Myland's.

Have you seen this Jimmy Clewes Video? I’ve tried it and he’s right, you can put Lacquer on top of wax!

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Have you seen this Jimmy Clewes Video? I’ve tried it and he’s right, you can put Lacquer on top of wax!

[

I would think the problem is not application but longevity of the finish. And example is the epoxy finish used by the Moulthrop's in Georgia for years and it is now beginning to fail. Another factor also is the elasticity of the lacquer used.

 

[Alan Weinberg]

And example is the epoxy finish used by the Moulthrop's in Georgia for years and it is now beginning to fail.

There are three generations of Moulthrops—Ed, Philip, and Matt. I have a piece from each. None yet has an issue. Fingers crossed.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Have you seen this Jimmy Clewes Video? I’ve tried it and he’s right, you can put Lacquer on top of wax!

I knew it!! It works really well if done properly.

 

[Mike Peace]

I just watched the Ray Key box videos posted by CSUSA. He had an interesting finishing schedule that consisted (as near as I can tell from the videos) of sanding to 400 with some kind of wax as a sanding lubricant (he said it reduced heat and scratch marks), polishing with 0000 steel wool with the same wax as a lubricant, then applying (what I think was) lacquer based sanding sealer on the lathe, using heat to dry it quickly, then cutting back the sheen with 0000 steel wool, then finishing wax over that. Seems like an interesting protocol that I'd like to try. Timestamp link to one instance of the protocol:

View: https://youtu.be/PTZemwWM2mE?si=OfwKZRV1pzYhkTuQ&t=531


Questions:

Does anyone know more about the wax used for sanding lubricant? (He refers to it simply as "paste wax" and the labels of everything are strategically facing away from the camera in the videos).

Is the lacquer product used a sanding sealer?

Anyone have a bead on where to get a depth gauge with a nice wide base like the one shown here?:

View: https://youtu.be/PTZemwWM2mE?si=gDUvnF0h_51cQbS7&t=501


As an interesting aside, I have one of Ray's tools. He taught at Arrowmont so much that he just left a set there, and in 2016 when it became apparent he wouldn't be able to make it back out, he asked Nick Agar to sell them off to the class that was there at the time. I was in that class and picked up a very well worn scraper- a wonderful piece of history and inspiration for me to carry the craft of box-making forward!

A somewhat similar depth gage comes in the Harbor Freight measuring set. https://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-technical-measuring-set-94447.html?_br_psugg_q=measuring+set It is one of my favorite tools for box making.