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Recommendation for bottom of bowl gouge?

Fadi Zeidan

Fadi Zeidan

Joined
Jul 5, 2016
Messages
469
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Location
San Antonio, TX
hey guys,

I want to get a bottom of bowl gouge, I believe for bottom of bowl a U shape is better? I’m thinking of 5/8” Thompson or D-way. Any recommendations for either or another brand?

Another minor question, any recommendations on tool handles that are 20”+? I plan on turning my own soon but if there is a good one, I want to look into it.
 
Go with a Hunter #5 carbide tool. It will clean up the bottom better than any other tool. With a regular bowl gouge to do a steep sided bowl you have to grind the edge to 60, or 70 degrees to get the tool shaft to stay clear of the bowl lip. the hunter tool has effectively an 82 degree bevel so the tool is almost straight out but your cutting with a very sharp cutting edge that will leave a bottom that in some cases you don't even have to sand it's so clean. At about 5 minutes into this video I show cutting the bottom of a box which would be similar to turning the bottom of a steep bowl. The early part of the video just shows how the tool is used including bowl turning.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo&t=448s
 
john lucas said:
Go with a Hunter #5 carbide tool. It will clean up the bottom better than any other tool. With a regular bowl gouge to do a steep sided bowl you have to grind the edge to 60, or 70 degrees to get the tool shaft to stay clear of the bowl lip. the hunter tool has effectively an 82 degree bevel so the tool is almost straight out but your cutting with a very sharp cutting edge that will leave a bottom that in some cases you don't even have to sand it's so clean. At about 5 minutes into this video I show cutting the bottom of a box which would be similar to turning the bottom of a steep bowl. The early part of the video just shows how the tool is used including bowl turning.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo&t=448s
Click to expand...

Thanks John, I think once I built my skills with gouges, I may go back and try Hunter tools but I’m not at that point yet. I want to master the gouges before I venture in different direction.
 
It's the hands holding the tool that are much more important than the shape of the flute. As Al has mentioned many times an Ellsworth grind is a good all around tool. I don't have a special gouge for the bottom of bowls. The nose angle on my gouges range from 45° to 65° and that seems to cover all my needs. I think you should get whatever you want and then learn to use it. You have my permission to change the grind ... no questions asked. I think that you'll find that your hands and brain will adapt to whatever gouge you have. Finally, don't buy a tool until you know exactly why you need it (I won't win any friends with that statement). :D It's OK if you break that rule while at a symposium.
 
Bill I was just saying that if you have a bowl with sides steep enough that a 55 or 65 degree grind won't reach the bottom without the shaft hitting the lip. That's where the #5 or #4 Hunter really shines. Ideally you design your bowls with a long sweeping curve and then one gouge does it all.
 
Well, other than making sure to grind off at least half of the heel, just about any rounded fluted gouge will work. For me, I prefer a ) shape nose, so barely any sweep. This allows me to roll the tool over to 60 to 70 degrees for a high shear angle. I like Doug Thompson's fluteless gouge for taking off tiny whiskers of shavings. I have a couple of different spindle/detail type gouges (very shallow flute) if I want to pull off a 1/8 inch wide shaving. I have an old half round half inch bowl gouge from Craft supplies that works really nicely as well. Funny thing is that some times one works and not the others, and the other way around, even on pieces from the same tree.... No difference that I can tell between the D Way and Thompson for quality or edge holding ability.

robo hippy
 
I have Thompson U shaped gouges in both 5/8 and 1/2 in sizes ground at 75 degrees for use on bottom of bowls. I find myself using the 1/2 inch one much more often; it seems to give a cleaner surface.

The Robust J shaped tool rest is very useful for supporting the tool close to the cut in deep bowls.
 
David Ellsworth uses a U bowl gouge with an 85 degree bevel for the bottom bowls. That's what I use. I have a Thompson 3/4 U bowl gouge with an 85 degree bevel... I can leave a glossy surface on the bottom of my Koa calabashes... I have used the Hunter #5 for the inside transition. it's a great tool and I can see why @john lucas recommends it. It's by far the best for that area that you loose the bevel...
 

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john lucas said:
Bill I was just saying that if you have a bowl with sides steep enough that a 55 or 65 degree grind won't reach the bottom without the shaft hitting the lip. That's where the #5 or #4 Hunter really shines. Ideally you design your bowls with a long sweeping curve and then one gouge does it all.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with that statement.
 
I've used a D-Way 5/8 bottom feeder for the bottom of steep-sided bowls for several years. Works great when needed...I grind it to about 80 degrees.
Recently been experimenting with a hunter cutter I got from Lyle Jamison in a captured rig for hollowing boxes. It is a sweet cutting rig - may just splurge on one of their tools at the Portland Symposium.
 
In David Ellsworth’s class, he recommended that we use bottom of bowl gouge. His usual approach is to use his inside bowl finishing cut, but the deeper you go, the more difficult it gets as you will have to go high above center then drop down towards center. He said recommended to use bottom of bowl gouge. I’m thinking of regrinding Thompson V gouge, but I’m wondering if thompson’s or similar bottom of gouge would have different flute shape.
 
the transition area is where the Hunter #4 or #5 really shines. A lot of people make bowls or boxes where the sides come directly into the bottom. (thin dog bowl shape) It is impossible to rub the bevel here. By rotating the Hunter cutter so the cutter faces the side of the vessel it becomes a shear scraper and will clean up those areas. I know I sound like I'm pushing that tool but seriously when it comes to cleaning up the bottom on steep sided vessels there isn't anything better. The Hook tools and Ring tools also worked really well for this but you had to constantly sharpen them.
 
My Glenn Lucas GL6 bottom finishing gouge (5/8") has a 55 degree grind, but also features a double bevel. That second bevel really helps it to turn the corner. Before buying a new tool as a bottom feeder, one might experiment with an existing gouge by grinding in a second bevel and see how that works. Just a thought.
 
John Turpin said:
My Glenn Lucas GL6 bottom finishing gouge (5/8") has a 55 degree grind, but also features a double bevel. That second bevel really helps it to turn the corner. Before buying a new tool as a bottom feeder, one might experiment with an existing gouge by grinding in a second bevel and see how that works. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
I think you could have as many as 3 bevels like Ashley Harwood, but they won’t help with cutting t he bottom unless you have a minimum of 70 degrees, I find 85 the most controllable for the bottom of Calabashes. Another thing is to do a nice curve like @john lucas suggested, then a 60 gouge can do it because there will be a very gradual wall...
 
I don't have a second bevel on my gouges. I keep it well rounded. By grinding a 'relief' on the back side, you are removing a part of the tool that you never would use. On a convex surface, like the outside of a bowl, bevel doesn't matter at all. On the inside, it can make huge differences depending on how much is ground off. To me, the whole purpose of grinding off the heel is to keep the bevel rubbing spot as close to the cutting edge as possible for better tool control. The only bevel I have is just behind the cutting edge. I tend to relieve the bevel on all of my tools, just out of habit. I would never use a jig to remove the heel, or adjust the platform, the secondary bevel has no function mechanically.

robo hippy
 
john lucas said:
Go with a Hunter #5 carbide tool. It will clean up the bottom better than any other tool. With a regular bowl gouge to do a steep sided bowl you have to grind the edge to 60, or 70 degrees to get the tool shaft to stay clear of the bowl lip. the hunter tool has effectively an 82 degree bevel so the tool is almost straight out but your cutting with a very sharp cutting edge that will leave a bottom that in some cases you don't even have to sand it's so clean. At about 5 minutes into this video I show cutting the bottom of a box which would be similar to turning the bottom of a steep bowl. The early part of the video just shows how the tool is used including bowl turning.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfp2kvhH6Mo&
Click to expand...
 
Sorry if I posted an empty message..., I was hoping to get one of the seasoned turners to add a little bit more to the starting post on this thread. I too am looking for a bottom bowl gouge as the relatively affordable hurricane 5/8 in I have ground as Ellsworth grind on a one-way wolverine set at 45° using the number two jig insert (just following the handout)
I have not been successful on the bowls that I'm practicing on with that gouge and it seems that a person does need a second gouge with steeper bevel. A lot of people mention the carbide Hunter # 4 (appears discontinued) but I assume there are evolved models. But it seems prudent to buy a sharpenable bowl gouge and find the right grind for myself with some mentorship. All the top-end ones are again beyond price range The PSI 5/8 gowl gouge which is under $40 seems to have a narrow v shape flute profile and I'm wondering if that is not a good choice for a bottom feeder. From what I am reading, a wider more u-shaped flute is more expedient for removing material inside a bowl. Seems that all the u-shaped gouges are relatively expensive including one-way, Carter and Thompson. I'll be taking these questions to the Gulf Coast open shop next week and talk to some of the experienced turners there but some thoughts would be appreciated as a further exploration of the primary question in this thread.
 
Raja Abusharr said:
I too am looking for a bottom bowl gouge as the relatively affordable hurricane 5/8 in I have ground as Ellsworth grind on a one-way wolverine set at 45° using the number two jig insert (just following the handout)
I have not been successful on the bowls that I'm practicing on with that gouge and it seems that a person does need a second gouge with steeper bevel.
Click to expand...
Check your nose bevel. You may be off on your grind and not have an Ellsworth but something else.

If you get something close to the Ellsworth grind, that grind works quite well as the only tool for open bowls ( wider than tall)
Grinding off the heel of the bevel makes the gouge work better for hollowing with a push cut.
This is the Ellsworth IMG_0434.jpeg


For hollowing make the entry cut with the flute point horizontal then rotate it up to about 45 degrees.
A short video hollowing with an Ellsworth. This gouge doe not have the heel ground off.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flw8LwQqGQU
 
Last edited:
I have a 1/2” Thompson U gouge. I have it ground to 55 degrees and then grind off the bottom half of the bevel. It is my favorite gouge for inside bowl and box turning.
 
john lucas said:
Go with a Hunter #5 carbide tool. It will clean up the bottom better than any other tool.
Click to expand...
I agree a cupped carbide tool like the Hunter will clean up the bottom better then any grind can on a standard gouge, but there are some similar tools that also work well like a ring tool, or a hook tool. The technique for using the ring or hook is similar to the the carbide tool meaning that the tool is never presented upright rather it is at an angle.
 
Raja Abusharr said:
After getting your useful drawing of the Ellsworth angles I went ahead and touched it up on the grinder and I think I've got a pretty good match
Click to expand...
You appear to have a very usable grind.
For hollowing with a push cut I grind the heel of the bevel. I sharpen the tool many times before regrinding the heel. The bevel gets longer each time. Here it is about twice as long a when I first ground off the heel.
IMG_0439.jpeg

Although the bevel is getting longer it works fine on this open bowlIMG_0435.jpeg

Note the tool entered the cut with the flute point parallel to the floor then rolled up to about 45 degrees while cutting.
 
I may have to do a video on just my BOB (bottom of bowl) tools. I have a bunch of them. One is a half round flute from my first set of tools from Craft Supplies. I have a couple of round flute tools that were 'accidents' or 'rejects' that were given to me. I have a couple of spindle detail gouges that work really well. I have several of the Thompson fluteless gouges. I don't really care for the V flutes on my BOB tools. Mostly it is a surface area thing. The round flute, or V flutes, when you roll them on their sides, they don't have as much surface area to put onto and into the wood. A spindle detail gouge, ground with a ) shape nose, at 70 degrees with the heel rolled/rounded over, gives a lot of surface area, and a very high sheer angle. The higher the sheer angle, the easier it is for the cutting edge to get under the fiber and lift gently as it cuts. Kind of like speed bumps in the parking lot. Hit them square on, which would be like scraping, and you get a big bump. Hit it at a 45 degree angle, and you get a much smaller bump. If you can hit it at 70 or more degrees, it is very gentle.

robo hippy
 
robo hippy said:
I may have to do a video on just my BOB (bottom of bowl) tools. I have a bunch of them. One is a half round flute from my first set of tools from Craft Supplies. I have a couple of round flute tools that were 'accidents' or 'rejects' that were given to me. I have a couple of spindle detail gouges that work really well. I have several of the Thompson fluteless gouges. I don't really care for the V flutes on my BOB tools. Mostly it is a surface area thing. The round flute, or V flutes, when you roll them on their sides, they don't have as much surface area to put onto and into the wood. A spindle detail gouge, ground with a ) shape nose, at 70 degrees with the heel rolled/rounded over, gives a lot of surface area, and a very high sheer angle. The higher the sheer angle, the easier it is for the cutting edge to get under the fiber and lift gently as it cuts. Kind of like speed bumps in the parking lot. Hit them square on, which would be like scraping, and you get a big bump. Hit it at a 45 degree angle, and you get a much smaller bump. If you can hit it at 70 or more degrees, it is very gentle.

robo hippy
Click to expand...
Video would be great
 
I tend to use what works best for me in a given context. That could be 5/8 and 1/2 bottoming gouges from D-way and Robust respectively. Both of these are ground at 60'. I also use a Thomson fluteless gouge to remove and ridges in the bottom 1/3 of a bowl especially when tear-out has been problematic. I also use one of these https://www.woodturnerscatalog.com/...nn-Lucas-GL2-Round-Nose-Negative-Rake-Scraper to help blend and refine the whole inside curvature of the bowl. On occasion I may use a Hunter carbide too. Context matters.

I don't think you need to run out and buy an arsenal like this, but there is more than one way to "skin a cat" as the saying goes. I don't think the tool manufacturer matters as much as the technique of the tool operator.
 
What is the saying? “Ask 5 woodturners what is the best tool for the job, and you’ll get 6 answers.” :p

I have a 3/4” Thompson bottom bowl gouge, ground at ~70 degrees. It has a U shaped flute, and I rounded off the heel. I also made a massive 23”ish handle for it. Works tremendously well for getting a glassy smooth finish on the bottom. Also took a bit of practice to use properly. I also have a Hunter Badger that is really nice for the transition from wall to floor, and is also really nice for more concave bottoms. These tools are both excellent for calabash style bowls where a standard gouge would run into some difficulties. If I’m turning more of an open form bowl, I just use my normal gouge and go for a nice continuous curve. Maybe add a round scraper to the mix to smooth things out.

All that said, to echo Monty, the tool operator’s technique trumps all.
 
I use a Sorby 1/2" parabolic with a 70 degree grind. It was in a set I purchased used and didn't need it for anything. So, I ground it to be a bottom feeder. Works pretty good. I don't use it for every bottom, but when I do it is effective. I had planned on replacing it with better steel, like a Thompson or something. But, for its limit use the Sorby seems to hold an edge quite a long time. My point is that, you don't necessarily need high quality steel for such a special purpose tool. A basic reputable bowl gouge is good enough. The cuts are light and few. Hard to justify the expense of the fancy steels.
 
I bought a little wonder and returned it for a refund. Like Michael I have a 1/2” Thompson and 5/8” Sorby I ground to 55 degrees and rounded off the bottom of the heel. It works great doesn’t matter on the size of what I am turning.
 
Interesting thread - looking back over the older posts, I came across my post from 2018. I did buy a Hunter Osprey at the symposium that year. Its a great tool, and gets a lot of use on boxes, but I still use my D-Way 5/8” gouge with a bottom feeder grind more than anything else. Its still ground to about 80 degrees, but has a slight angle to the wings and the heel is rounded. I think it was Dave Schweitzer - founder of D-way that showed me that grind. Except for the slight wing angle, it’s not that different from a traditional bowl gouge grind. I also keep a 1/2” D-Way gouge (the ‘long and strong’ version) with the same grind for smaller bowls and those with steeper walls.
 
The Osprey doesn't work the same way the #5 Hunter does. Although you could ride the bevel on the Osprey the downward tilt of the cutter makes it better to be used flat. The #5 hunter works fantastic as a bevel riding tool a d makes a fantastic bottom turning tool.
 
Honestly, I'm not really sure of what shape my flutes are on any of my gouges. (and not sure I'd even notice the difference) I grind most of them with the same angle, except for one very blunt angle for bottoms and one very aggressive for rotten/soft wood or details. (also has a very long wing for shear scraping) It's quite an assortment of brands, but none of the premium signature models. (yet, anyway)
 
I was recently watching some Richard Raffan videos. He used scrapers across the bottom of just about everything. And they were not NRS either. I tried this a few times a couple of years ago and found it to be pretty grabby. Might just be my inexperience. I'm going to revisit that method soon.
 
Scrapers do work well for sweeping across the bottom of a bowl since the grain is all pretty flat. They do not work well, other than for a shear scrape, in the transition and up the walls because scrapers 'pull' at the fiber. I don't use any scrapers over 1 inch wide. In part because that is just too much metal, and if you accidentally get too much in the wood at one time, that can cause a catch. This tends to happen in the transition area most often. I did see one turner use a scraper with the grinder burr totally honed off. It left an almost glass smooth surface on some hard maple. That would not work on soft maple, just because of the wood.

robo hippy
 
I use a 65° BG with a parabolic flute for the inside bottom cuts.

That's not as steep as 70°, which may be more suited to a dedicated inside bottom gouge with a U flute, but I find a 65° bevel with a Ellsworth grind on a parabolic flute is a more versatile grind that can do a lot of other cuts. I use it to to do all of my green turning; from go to whoa.

For a long time I only turned with a 65° bevel angle and Ellsworth grind. As well as doing the inside bottoms, that grind gives as clean a finishing cut off the wings as a push cut with a 40/40 grind and it can also do inside reverse shear scraping cut up the inside walls of bowls. So, it's quite versatile.

Fadi, if you haven't tried a 65° bevel yet, you might like to do so before buying a dedicated BG for inside bottom cuts. I know that some don't get on as well with it as I do, but other than a tiny bit of gouge metal, you won't have lost much by at least giving it a trying.

Nowadays I use a couple of other dedicated grind angles, like 42° and 55°, but the 65° is still my workhorse.

Note: The Thompson and D-Way standard gouges have V flutes and, as good as those are, the above comments in relation to versatility do not apply to them to the same extent.
 
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