Removing wood fast.....question for the day.

[Odie]

I realize, of course, that everyone has their own techniques and processes.....but, what tools work best for you when a lot of wood needs to be removed? (example: bowl interiors)

If they are good and sharp, I see little difference between a gouge, and a scraper for this objective.....there is no clear cut winner here!

Something that may speed this up for others, is more horsepower.....I am using a 1 1/2 hp motor. Since removing wood in bulk is less than 1/10th of the total time at the lathe, I've always felt the motor I have is perfectly sufficient. There is no other time when lack of horsepower is considered a disadvantage, than speeding up the bulk wood removal process. (Those who do coring, may have other thoughts on this, though.)

Another advantage is physical strength.....and keeping the tool perfectly steady through the cut is a great benefit. This only plays a minor part, because it doesn't take up much of your time to restart the cut.

I'm curious what others will contribute to this thread.....

-o-

 

[Peter D'Attomo]

Have used both gouges and carbide for coring, for me carbide is a faster method of getting rid of material, and don't need to resharpen tools as often. Also speed is a key ingredient. I cut around 2k. on a Powermatic 3520b and I don't go over 14" dia.

 

[hockenbery]

what tools work best for you when a lot of wood needs to be removed? (example: bowl interiors)

Coring is the fastest way I have removed interiors. Three core cut hollows 3 bowls

For a non core bowl a gouge is the preference of most production bowl turners.
Because it lets them produce more bowls.

For individuals use the tool you are best with gouge, scraper, carbide, Cnc, chainsaw.

 

[Ron Solfest]

My typical gouge on a bowl is a 5/8” (bar) sharpened at about 50deg nose angle sweeping back on sides ~3/4”. I turn off of the end of my 2HP 3520. To remove the majority of bulk in the center of the bowl I lay the gouge on it’s side, flute slightly up, with wing perpendicular to the ways (handle far right off back of lathe) and push straight in taking about 1/2”+ bite on green wood, 1/2”- bite on dried hardwoods; or, with wing parallel to ways pulling similar shavings from center of bowl out.

Speed matters too as @Peter D'Attomo says, but I’m not brave enough to run 2K on 14inch bowls. Most bowls I do are ~8in+/- and I’m typically running these around 1000-1500.

 

[Peter D'Attomo]

Ron, Sorry for mix up I intended to say I don't do any work over 14" but on smaller pieces I will go to the higher speed after it's rounded.

 

[Odie]

Most bowls I do are ~8in+/- and I’m typically running these around 1000-1500.

I cut around 2k. on a Powermatic 3520b and I don't go over 14" dia.

Very interesting...... I never go above 8-900 rpm for any type of cut...(*)..not just wood removal.The most important factors for me are sharpness, tuning the static rpm for the least inherent vibration, and limiting the "bite" of the cut for the purpose of fine tuning of the cut I'm currently executing . I was roughing out a 12" bowl this morning, and the vibration limited me to about 500rpm.....this is typical.

There really isn't any wrong answers here, but it does surprise me that some turners are dependent on higher speeds for this purpose.

* Note: When I was much less experienced, I did use much higher speeds than I do now.

-o-

 

[John Hicks]

For me, I found the 5/8 swept back gouge is a bit quicker than a scraper. But it depends if the wood is dry, or green.

 

[hockenbery]

Speed is a factor.
My gouge with an Ellsworth grind with a slightly longer wing will take 3/4” shaving over a wide speed range.
Faster speed faster hollowing.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Very interesting...... I never go above 8-900 rpm for any type of cut...(*)..not just wood removal.The most important factors for me are sharpness, tuning the static rpm for the least inherent vibration, and limiting the "bite" of the cut for the purpose of fine tuning of the cut I'm currently executing . I was roughing out a 12" bowl this morning, and the vibration limited me to about 500rpm.....this is typical.

There really isn't any wrong answers here, but it does surprise me that some turners are dependent on higher speeds for this purpose.

* Note: When I was much less experienced, I did use much higher speeds than I do now.

-o-

Speed speed speed... The faster it is, more wood will come off, you can take heavier cuts and the finish is MUCH smoother. 8 inch bowls I start at about 1200-1500 rpm and am not afraid to get as high as 2000-2200 for light finishing cuts! Also 1/2 inch bowl gouge is ideal, 5/8 is too large endless you make massive bowls… It is relative though because I don't turn very many bowls, so don't take too much advice from me...

 

[Ron Solfest]

Odie - I was roughing green logs a few weeks ago where the initial speeds were limited to ~300rpm. With that said, most of my turning is laminated dried hardwoods. For an ~8” by 3-4” thick blank I knock the corners off with a bandsaw and then turn a tenon and the outside of the bowl with a flat friction plate, probably starting around 500-600, by the time the outside is nearly done I’m usually up around 1000+/-; can’t say I focus on the rpms. After mounting in a Chuck to turn the inside I either leave the speed where it was, or dial it up a little. By the time I’m finishing the inside it’s seldom that I’m slower than 1000 or faster than 1500.

Sharpness of the gouge is more important than speed and as I’ve accumulated more gouges I tend to sharpen in batches and then switch gouges instead of breaking from the bowl to sharpen. Speed is another variable, which for me usually goes up to achieve better cuts with the noted exception of thin, especially winged bowls, where speed can get in my way AND I don’t get much of a chance to revisit the rim as I go down …AMHIK

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

For my boxes it’s even faster.. 2500-2700 for those finishing scrapes

 

[Odie]

Speed speed speed… it seems many new turners turn at a very slow speed. The faster it is, more wood will come off, you can take heavier cuts and the finish is MUCH smoother. 8 inch bowls I start at about 1200-1500 rpm and am not afraid to get as high as 2000-2200 for light finishing cuts! Also 1/2 inch bowl gouge is ideal, 5/8 is too large endless you make massive bowls…

As I mentioned, Gabriel.....I started out with much higher speeds than I do now. My reasoning for this is quality of the cut is more important than volume of the cut. Speed also makes a less than sharp tool cut better.

I do not consider myself to be a production turner, even though I turn probably 99 out of 100 days!

Note, @Gabriel Hoff....it is my turn to pick the TOTW this coming Monday.....and I've already picked one of yours for this!

-o-

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

As I mentioned, Gabriel.....I started out with much higher speeds than I do now. My reasoning for this is quality of the cut is more important than volume of the cut. Speed also makes a less than sharp tool cut better.

I do not consider myself to be a production turner, even though I turn probably 99 out of 100 days!

Note, @Gabriel Hoff....it is my turn to pick the TOTW this coming Monday.....and I've already picked one of yours for this!

-o-

Wow Odie, that's great! There is nothing wrong with going slower, I just found for myself it is easier to be on the faster side. Of course I don't turn many bowls, so I am definitely not the source for someone, especially since you have many more years experience with turning your stunningly beautiful bowls!

I currently have COVID, so any new boxes will have to wait for a little bit but here is a sneak peak at one of the blanks I have in line!!! (Amboyna Burl)

 

[Odie]

I currently have COVID, so any new boxes will have to wait for a little bit but here is a sneak peak at one of the blanks I have in line!!! (Amboyna Burl)

Best wishes for a swift recovery, Gabriel......

I have turned a few Amboyna burl bowls, and this is some spectacular wood. Can't wait to see what you do with it.....

-o-

 

[Tim Hunter]

When I want to get rid of a lot of material quickly, I have a couple of custom-made tools that I typically use. The most aggressive is comprised of a 7/8” diameter steel rod about three feet long that holds a custom-ground carbide button insert. The bar has a flat milled on the bottom for about the first 6” to ride on the tool rest. Wood is so scared of this tool it jumps out of the bowl!

My New Haven lathe has a 2hp repulsion motor and 16-speed drivetrain. Unlike VFD-driven lathes that lose power as motor speed is reduced, my New Haven delivers full power at all speeds from roughly 100-2000 rpm. The torque at lower speeds is incredible - you virtually can’t stall it even with very aggressive roughing.

Tim

 

[Michael Anderson]

I generally stay within the DxRPM = 9000ish range when I’m turning a bowl. With exceptions of course (much slower if out of round, or maybe a bit faster if it’s a small endgrain bowl), and with adjustments for wood quality, inclusions, etc… That said, you can’t deny that more speed equals faster wood removal to an extent. Your tools will wear out more quickly with more speed, so you need to be cognizant of dullness and re-sharpening. And, @Gabriel Hoff some noteworthy turners advocate that slower speeds will result in a better quality surface, especially for finishing cuts (Ulf Jansson, for example). Just playing devil’s advocate.

If I’m roughing out a blank I will usually go with a 5/8 gouge. I like long wings for pull cuts, and a low-ish angle for push cuts. 50 degree (ish) Ellsworth grind is usually where I settle. Unless it’s a really small bowl, that’s the size I use. I’ll switch to a 1/2 gouge when I get close to the finishing cuts.

 

[Steve Chaplin]

Any kind of peeling cut can remove wood fast. You can do it with a push or pull cut, long wing or 40/40 works best. A large gouge can take a much bigger cut, I use a 3/4" 40/40 for removing a lot of wood. I use DxRPM=12,000 to 13,000 which keeps speed no more than 40mph. I usually core blanks larger than 15".

 

[hockenbery]

People gravitate to the tools and skills that work best for them. That’s fine

A few folks want a better method

The side ground bowl gouge has become the tool of choice for the better production bowl turners I know.
It’s fast and easy on the body.
Watch a video by Mahoney, Lucas, or Bosch.

I’ve taught hundred of students to hollow bowls.

Every one of them could take a 1/2” shaving like this

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

I generally stay within the DxRPM = 9000ish range when I’m turning a bowl. With exceptions of course (much slower if out of round, or maybe a bit faster if it’s a small endgrain bowl), and with adjustments for wood quality, inclusions, etc… That said, you can’t deny that more speed equals faster wood removal to an extent. Your tools will wear out more quickly with more speed, so you need to be cognizant of dullness and re-sharpening. And, @Gabriel Hoff some noteworthy turners advocate that slower speeds will result in a better quality surface, especially for finishing cuts (Ulf Jansson, for example). Just playing devil’s advocate.

If I’m roughing out a blank I will usually go with a 5/8 gouge. I like long wings for pull cuts, and a low-ish angle for push cuts. 50 degree (ish) Ellsworth grind is usually where I settle. Unless it’s a really small bowl, that’s the size I use. I’ll switch to a 1/2 gouge when I get close to the finishing cuts.

Interesting Michael, maybe I should try slowing down on my finishing cuts and see what happens. I just use the faster speed because it is the only thing I have practiced with. Of course I am turning boxes and small things mostly, so spindle turning is always faster then bowls turning.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

People gravitate to the tools and skills that work best for them. That’s fine

A few folks want a better method

The side ground bowl gouge has become the tool of choice for the better production bowl turners I know.
It’s fast and easy on the body.
Watch a video by Mahoney, Lucas, or Bosch.

I’ve taught hundred of students to hollow bowls.

Every one of them could take a 1/2” shaving like this
View attachment 55588

Do you have a close up picture/diagram of the side grind?

 

[Michael Anderson]

Gabriel, your results speak for themselves though, so whatever works

 

[robo hippy]

The late Great Bill Grumbine made a comment once, some thing like "I haven't met a lathe I couldn't stall". That is true for me as well. I don't use scrapers over 1 inch wide because there is no need for a huge thick one. Look up my Scary Scrapers video. The advantage a scraper has over a gouge is that you sweep back and forth compared to a gouge where you start at the top, go to the bottom, take the tool out of the wood, come back to the top, and then repeat. For roughing cuts, that can't be beat. I can pull full 1 inch wide shavings, no problem, with green wood. With dry wood, I just have to go slower. I can take paper thin shavings that float in the air, and very thick ones as well. I do like a bit more speed than most. Eric Lofstrom made a comment about speed will not make for cleaner cuts, but it does make for smoother cuts. One thing I did not like about the 3520B and C models was the 1200 speed range for the low end. That is not fast enough for bowls in the 12 and under diameter range.

Scary Scrapers:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4MKTOutZ3w


robo hippy

 

[hockenbery]

Do you have a close up picture/diagram of the side grind?

The side grind is a class of bowl gouge grinds made up of many grinds.
The traditional bowl grind sometime called English - the gouge is ground straight across with little or no wing.
A side ground gouge has a wing.
The Ellsworth grind is the one I use 90% with a slightly longer wing than the Ellsworth diagram.
40/40 and Michelson are two other grinds I use when I think they will work better.

Here is a diagrams showing 4 variations. Hope this helps


My Ellsworth grind with heel ground off

 

[Owen Lowe]

The thread seemed to kick off with general wood removal but has taken on a bowl focus... Let me veer it towards spindle orientation.

I was demo-turning spin tops a couple weekends ago and only brought 1/4" and 3/8" spindle gouges and a thin parting tool. I wanted to keep my kit very light and without extras. What I should have included was one of my bedans. For peeling wood to make the stems, my gouges were just too slow. I could have sped the process for each top by a couple minutes with a bedan.

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

The side grind is a class of bowl gouge grind made up of many grinds.
The traditional bowl grind sometime called English - the gouge is ground straight across with little or no wing.
A side ground gouge has a wing.
The Ellsworth grind is the one I use 90% with a slightly longer wing than the Ellsworth diagram.
40/40 and Michelson are two other grinds I use when I think they will work better.

Here is a diagrams showing 4 variations. Hope this helps
View attachment 55589

My Ellsworth grind with heel ground off View attachment 55590

Thanks Al!

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

I don't see any mention of using large diameter Forstner or machine spur bits to quickly remove material. Watching turners I'm always surprise to see the use of gouges instead.

I have read that some lathes can't use the larger bits because of possible damage to the tailstock quill from smallish tip of the anti-rotation screw riding in the slot of the quill. One higher end, expensive lathe even has a suggestion to occasionally file the quill from damage by that screw. Ridiculous to make a quality lathe that way. I realize to do ant-rotation the correct way requires a far more expensive machining operation than the simple screw.

If your lathe can't handle the large bits, it can be done in the drill press.

 

[Tim Hunter]

The late Great Bill Grumbine made a comment once, some thing like "I haven't met a lathe I couldn't stall". That is true for me as well.

You should meet my New Haven someday and bring you biggest tools. Being a 30" patternmakers lathe, it has enough torque to tear your arm off...Literally, it has to be respected at low speeds since it is a constant power machine, instead of constant torque like a VFD-driven lathe. As speed goes down, torque continues to climb. I would never want to get tangled up in it.

Tim

 

[Steve Chaplin]

I certainly was not trying to steer this conversation to what grind is better. All I was pointing out was peeling cuts remove more wood. A long wing gouge can take a huge peeling cut.

 

[Dave Landers]

The thread seemed to kick off with general wood removal but has taken on a bowl focus... Let me veer it towards spindle orientation.

I was demo-turning spin tops a couple weekends ago and only brought 1/4" and 3/8" spindle gouges and a thin parting tool. I wanted to keep my kit very light and without extras. What I should have included was one of my bedans. For peeling wood to make the stems, my gouges were just too slow. I could have sped the process for each top by a couple minutes with a bedan.

I use a spindle gouge ground with a reasonably long wing. I can take a pretty efficient peeling cut with the side wing of that gouge (I roll the gouge vs with a skew you'd lift the handle).

 

[Odie]

I really enjoy these discussions where many opinions converge and tend to enlighten us.

One thing that comes to mind for me, is when you follow the rules, you inadvertently set the boundaries of your exploratory quests. When you make your own rules, you, by your own nature, stumble and fall much more often.....but you pioneer your own path where your footprints are not trampled by others.

-o-

 

[hughie]

Hmm, how long is a piece of string comes to mind.
As I often turn the odd and unusual with many faults and voids, my speed is generally low under a 1000rpm and with the most crazy down around 500. I actually look for the most difficult to the extent that good solid safe blanks border on the boring for me.

Bulk removal I rely on the Woodcut Pro-Forme, depending on the species you can open it up 10 over 1.5mm or a 1/16th with that I can do a 10mm or 3/8th cut with ease

The raison d'être as it were, is the challenge that gets me going, the harder, the better, after all whats life without a challenge? Very true, Odie rules are boundary makers and in doing so limit the widening of our experience and ultimately expertise in this case.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

Bulk removal I rely on the Woodcut Pro-Forme, depending on the species you can open it up 10 over 1.5mm or a 1/16th with that I can do a 10mm or 3/8th cut with ease

The Pro-Forme is an interesting tool. Basically it appears to be a very high positive cutting geometry. That geometry equates to a free cutting tool that can be difficult to hand control because of its tendency to self feed. The hood over the tool limits the self feeding making it feasible for hand guiding. This is the same well proven cutting geometry that's used in CNC and mechanically guided tools where the tool's position is rigidly controlled against self feeding so no need for the hood. OT uses high positives too.

Googling on the tool's name brings a number of Youtubes.

These type tools seem to be an Australia/New Zealand type thing. American turners more favor gouges with special grinds, riding the bevel, etc, etc. I wonder why and kind of unfortunate in my opinion .

 

[hockenbery]

These type tools seem to be an Australia/New Zealand type thing. American turners more favor gouges with special grinds, riding the bevel, etc, etc. I wonder why and kind of unfortunate in my opinion .

For endgrain hollowing the gouge is quite often not the preferred tool.
Ring tools and hook tools are often used by those who hollow endgrain because they cut well from bottom to rim.
The covered ring tools are sold in the US by several manufactures.
The termite a ring tool sold by ONEWAY is quite popular.

I did learn a back hollowing technique with a spindle gouge watching Richard Raffan. The method shoots out a shaving stream comparable to those achieved with the ring tools and covered ring tools. A bit less than a large hook tool.

 

[Marc Banka]

Odd question, I think (given that I usually think differently).

1st—Wood removal, for shaping and removing the interior (I make bowls) is what percent of the total time spent with a chainsaw, bandsaw, and especially sanding and finishing? A lot of time is spent pondering, planning, sourcing, cutting blanks, mounting blanks before we can turn. And a fair amount of drudgery, (time required relative to skill at cutting) sanding to perfect the surface- work done after the ‘turning’. Already, the time spent ‘turning’ — wood spinning, gouges cutting, is small compared to the prep and clean-up operations. Turning is why I’m here. I love wood shavings flying from my gouge! Why would I want or need to shortcut that time? Once a blank is on the lathe, ready for first turning, how much time do we actually spend, gouge to wood? An hour for the outside, maybe, and another hour on the inside, maybe. Good times in my book. Take a shortcut, why?

2nd are the skills needed to cleanly and efficiently remove the wood that won’t be part of the finished piece. And, at the same time, keeping a keen eye on the development of the desired shape. Rough turning is a great way to hone the skills needed to make perfect finish cuts, without risking a boo-boo on your near finished work. Perfecting the roughing cuts (they aren't actually rough) increases one’s confidence for making final cuts. Plus, it’s fun! Every step toward perfection is exhilarating! Making a perfect tenon, for instance, is a challenge, and is its own reward. Not a tenon made with a scraper, quick and easy, also usually not cleanly, but with a spindle gouge to slice both critical faces. The gouge being more time consuming, especially if your technique needs work, and results in a cleaner ,which equals stronger, grip. And then I get to say to myself, “Ha! Look at me! I’m bada*s!” Imagine doing this always, and then think about that entry cut into a natural edge bowl, especially those final cuts.

Why is speed, shortening the time to make our piece, even a factor? If this is what you enjoy doing, you should savor it!

Marc

 

[Gabriel Hoff]

Odd question, I think (given that I usually think differently).

1st—Wood removal, for shaping and removing the interior (I make bowls) is what percent of the total time spent with a chainsaw, bandsaw, and especially sanding and finishing? A lot of time is spent pondering, planning, sourcing, cutting blanks, mounting blanks before we can turn. And a fair amount of drudgery, (time required relative to skill at cutting) sanding to perfect the surface- work done after the ‘turning’. Already, the time spent ‘turning’ — wood spinning, gouges cutting, is small compared to the prep and clean-up operations. Turning is why I’m here. I love wood shavings flying from my gouge! Why would I want or need to shortcut that time? Once a blank is on the lathe, ready for first turning, how much time do we actually spend, gouge to wood? An hour for the outside, maybe, and another hour on the inside, maybe. Good times in my book. Take a shortcut, why?

2nd are the skills needed to cleanly and efficiently remove the wood that won’t be part of the finished piece. And, at the same time, keeping a keen eye on the development of the desired shape. Rough turning is a great way to hone the skills needed to make perfect finish cuts, without risking a boo-boo on your near finished work. Perfecting the roughing cuts (they aren't actually rough) increases one’s confidence for making final cuts. Plus, it’s fun! Every step toward perfection is exhilarating! Making a perfect tenon, for instance, is a challenge, and is its own reward. Not a tenon made with a scraper, quick and easy, also usually not cleanly, but with a spindle gouge to slice both critical faces. The gouge being more time consuming, especially if your technique needs work, and results in a cleaner ,which equals stronger, grip. And then I get to say to myself, “Ha! Look at me! I’m bada*s!” Imagine doing this always, and then think about that entry cut into a natural edge bowl, especially those final cuts.

Why is speed, shortening the time to make our piece, even a factor? If this is what you enjoy doing, you should savor it!

Marc

I usually don’t use scrapers when turning bowls because learning the right way with gouges is important. Speed is important, I want to get to the finished result in a timely manner. I really find that speed helps with a cut. I think vision is extremely important, seeing the shape and training your eyes to see pleasing and proper form. I can take a look at another’s turners work and see right away that some cuts or sanding would help to achieve a pleasing form if needed. This is just what I have found, but any technique would work and others should definitely use what they think works and what they know best!

 

[Tom Lucas]

Richard Raffan hollows using a back cut. It's really fast. He's the only one I've seen using that technique. Any thoughts on that approach being faster?

 

[hockenbery]

Richard Raffan hollows using a back cut. It's really fast. He's the only one I've seen using that technique. Any thoughts on that approach being faster?

I learned seeing Raffan do the cut in a demo. Not as fast fast Raffan.

A great technique to have in your arsenal if you do endgrain holowing.
I use it a bit for hollowing endgrain to about 4” deep. Great for goblets scoops boxes etc.
works well at hollowing a space wider than the opening. I finish the surface with a Hunter #4.
I loose the fulcrum if try to go too deep.

These are few gifs from a demo I did on gouges.
The back hollowing starts after I made a few passes cutting to the side with the tip of the gouge.
This is a 3/8 spindle gouge. 1/2 takes a bigger shaving. It’s a peeling cut done with the wing.
To avoid a catch keep the gouge tip from touching the wood.
Drill a hole to depth then start opening it up
then bigger shavings.

 

[Timothy White]

Marc:
Your points are well taken. I rarely turn over 1000 RPM. While I am not searching for speed I am looking for efficiency.
Blank prep chucking sanding finishing as you point out are a major part of the turning process.
Dull tools are the antithesis of efficient turning. Every step in turning is faster easier more efficient and much more enjoyable with sharp tools. Many of the turners in my club hate sharpening, consequentially their turning ability doesn’t progress. I have developed a fondness for sharpening that is only surpassed by my fondness for turning.
Tool steel, gouge size, flute shape, manufacturer doesn’t matter nearly as much as sharp.
The better I get at sharpening the better my tool control gets the faster the wood gets removed the better my finish cut gets the more efficient I get. All of the above add to the joy of making those long curly shavings.

 

[Marc Banka]

My use of the term ‘speed’ is in reference to elapsed time, not the rpm of the lathe. I have no issue with spinning a bowl at >1000 rpm. The speed that works best for the cuts and technique used is the best speed (rpm).

That back cut for hollowing end grain forms is brilliant! It‘s a cut that requires skill and practice. One could accomplish much the same thing with a big forstner drill (not really), but that back cut is really sweet. Why search for an easier way, when the tool in your hand is capable, clean and efficient?

Timothy, I completely agree about sharpening. Again, a skill, not a speed (get it done quick) thing. I enjoy skills training—my tools are scary sharp, and are resharpened as soon as the thrill is gone. I don’t use signature, exotic gouges, just oneway’s mastercut. Very good steel and a flute profile I feel is among the best.

 

[Doug Rasmussen]

For endgrain hollowing the gouge is quite often not the preferred tool.
Ring tools and hook tools are often used by those who hollow endgrain because they cut well from bottom to rim.
The covered ring tools are sold in the US by several manufactures.
The termite a ring tool sold by ONEWAY is quite popular.

Hock,

I did notice the Youtubes for the Pro-Forme all showed end grain turning from bottom to rim. In my experience a high positive geometry will do flat grain bowls from rim to bottom. I don't know why they only showed the one usage.

I wasn't aware of the Oneway ring tool. I see it on Amazon without a hood and rotated from the ring being horizontal which seems a totally different concept.

The point I want to make about a high positive tool geometry is it's been considered the ultimate choice for decades in production woodturning with machine guided tools. Add the depth limiting hood and it could be the ultimate for hand turners interested in rapid material removal. It's apparent from this thread all turners are not interested in the quick removal, and that's fine too.