Rotating Head Lathes ?

[odie]

I don't expect members of "the herd" are going to understand how someone from the outside is able to see......and, just because one is able to see, doesn't mean they will. It does take a special kind of perspective, an interaction between self and resources very often that isn't desired, or used by everybody who seeks the less traveled paths.....

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

like to see a turning no one else has done before.

The vast majority of original turned artwork has elements not done on the lathe.
However there are lots of turnings done for the first time just on the lathe

Three classics
Johannesen Michelson cowboy hat
Trent Bosch vessel of illusion
Mark Sfirri baseball bat

Most Anything by David Springett


These are far from monumental but here are some things I discovered on my own.
Not sure I am the first but I have found no reference to earlier similar work.

3 sided and two sided napkin rings


Suspended spherical forms -
The profiles of the carving are turned

Ball in a ball
These are based on the bodger chair joint so seems likely someone would have done them before
I got the idea in a conversation with David Springett.

Also the three sided ball stand in the avatar

 

[odie]

The vast majority of original turned artwork has elements not done on the lathe.

Very true, and an excellent point, Al.....

If I can expand on that, I'd like to point out that the great majority of these original turned artworks hold that status specifically because of that portion that is completed off the lathe. Technically, we could call them "lathe turned", and we could also call them "original artworks".....but, the waters become muddied when they are considered "lathe art". Aren't we then making an assumption based on the melding of two distinctly unrelated elements.....other than they exist in dual conception? From my POV, unless there is something distinctively unique about the lathe portion, it cannot be considered "art". The embellishment done off the lathe is not under the same set of standards.....in that embellishment can stand alone as art.....as long as it has a unique artistic appeal.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Boehme]

Very true, and an excellent point, Al.....

If I can expand on that, I'd like to point out that the great majority of these original turned artworks hold that status specifically because of that portion that is completed off the lathe. Technically, we could call them "lathe turned", and we could also call them "original artworks".....but, the waters become muddied when they are considered "lathe art". Aren't we then making an assumption based on the melding of two distinctly unrelated elements.....other than they exist in dual conception? From my POV, unless there is something distinctively unique about the lathe portion, it cannot be considered "art". The embellishment done off the lathe is not under the same set of standards.....in that embellishment can stand alone as art.....as long as it has a unique artistic appeal.

-----odie-----

What standards are you talking about? Is the guy who eschews rules now invoking them? You seem to contradict yourself at every turn. You frequently say that the end result is the only thing that matters (which I would agree), but now you say it matters what is done on the lathe and what is done off the lathe. Why? What defines the worth of a work ... the creativity and inspiration of the maker ... or, the tools that were used?

Who gets to say what is or isn't art ... the maker or the beholder? I believe that the maker can't be objective because he is emotionally invested in his work. You said, "From my POV, unless there is something distinctively unique about the lathe portion, it cannot be considered "art". While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, what rationale can you offer to support that position?

 

[odie]

What standards are you talking about? Is the guy who eschews rules now invoking them? You seem to contradict yourself at every turn. You frequently say that the end result is the only thing that matters (which I would agree), but now you say it matters what is done on the lathe and what is done off the lathe. Why? What defines the worth of a work ... the creativity and inspiration of the maker ... or, the tools that were used?

Who gets to say what is or isn't art ... the maker or the beholder? I believe that the maker can't be objective because he is emotionally invested in his work. You said, "From my POV, unless there is something distinctively unique about the lathe portion, it cannot be considered "art". While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, what rationale can you offer to support that position?

Hello Bill......Your post deserves some clarifications, and it seems that we both have our own beliefs and interpretations of many things. Unfortunately, we are preparing for a long trip right now, and I'm not sure when I can give a thoughtful response. I'll be in a family get together for the next week, or so.....

Later, -----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

Fortunately wood turning tent is big enough to include all the work turners want to make.

Most embellishment takes advantage of wood properties and requires a well executed turning as the canvas.

Pyrography, sandcarving, texturing wheels, chatter work, chip carving, relief carving, wood bending - depend on the structure of the wood and the grain orientation.
Piercing requires an even wall thickness, basket illusion requires form with smooth curves.
Cutting/reassembly requires,precise turning

Mostly it is all about achieving an excellence in turning and a knowledge of wood.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Have a good safe trip, Odie.

 

[odie]

What standards are you talking about? Is the guy who eschews rules now invoking them? You seem to contradict yourself at every turn. You frequently say that the end result is the only thing that matters (which I would agree), but now you say it matters what is done on the lathe and what is done off the lathe. Why? What defines the worth of a work ... the creativity and inspiration of the maker ... or, the tools that were used?

Who gets to say what is or isn't art ... the maker or the beholder? I believe that the maker can't be objective because he is emotionally invested in his work. You said, "From my POV, unless there is something distinctively unique about the lathe portion, it cannot be considered "art". While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, what rationale can you offer to support that position?

Hello Bill......I'm back now. I don't feel I've contradicted myself, as I've always given an honest accounting of my beliefs. I've known for some time that my opinions don't go over well with quite a few other turners......particularly my beliefs that "herd think" leads many turners to a restricted understanding, or restricts possible paths one can take in their turning, which in turn, is a limiting factor in potential growth. Having said that, I do believe that "herd think" actually produces more turners from the ranks of newbies than might be possible without it. My reasoning for that is that "herd think" provides more answers than leaving one to his own ways of solving the same problems.

I've been completely devoid of any electronic involvement for the past week......no computer, no cell phone activity. I've immensely enjoyed this little "time out". Somehow, it's allowed me to contemplate on an isolated level.......something that I've not enjoyed for some time. It is these moments of contemplation that connect me with the kind of self-thinking that humanity has experienced in times past that some of us (especially the younger among us) might not ever have had the chance to experience. I reminisce of a time when we were alone with our thoughts......a quill pen, and oil lamp for light.....alone in the wee hours of the night!

Anyway, I don't consider "right vs wrong".......just alternative ways of accumulating individual thought. (or.....something like that! ) I hope others will give me a little leeway in my obscure thinking processes, and allow me my space.

-----odie-----

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hello Bill......I'm back now. I don't feel I've contradicted myself, as I've always given an honest accounting of my beliefs. I've known for some time that my opinions don't go over well with quite a few other turners......particularly my beliefs that "herd think" leads many turners to a restricted understanding, or limits possible paths one can take in their turning, which in turn, is a limiting factor in potential growth. Having said that, I do believe that "herd think" actually produces more turners from the ranks of newbies than might be possible without it.

I've been completely devoid of any electronic involvement for the past week......no computer, no cell phone activity. I've immensely enjoyed this little "time out". Somehow, it's allowed me to contemplate on an isolated level.......something that I've not enjoyed for some time. It is these moments of contemplation that connect me with the kind of self-thinking that humanity has experienced in times past that some of us (especially the younger among us) might not ever have had the chance to experience. I reminisce of a time when we were alone with our thoughts......a quill pen, and oil lamp for light, alone, in the wee hours of the night!

Anyway, I don't consider "right vs wrong".......just alternative ways of accumulating individual thought. (or.....something like that! ) I hope others will give me a little leeway in my obscure thinking processes, and allow me my space.

-----odie-----

Certainly. We're all individuals who each see things from a slightly different perspective. When we share our views and ideas with each other, we all benefit. Woodturners are an inquisitive lot ... always seeking information in our own unique ways. As far as a "herd" is concerned, I say Baaaah ... baaaaaah ...... baaaaaaaah.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Hello Bill......I'm back now. I don't feel I've contradicted myself, as I've always given an honest accounting of my beliefs. I've known for some time that my opinions don't go over well with quite a few other turners......particularly my beliefs that "herd think" leads many turners to a restricted understanding, or restricts possible paths one can take in their turning, which in turn, is a limiting factor in potential growth. Having said that, I do believe that "herd think" actually produces more turners from the ranks of newbies than might be possible without it. My reasoning for that is that "herd think" provides more answers than leaving one to his own ways of solving the same problems.

Anyway, I don't consider "right vs wrong".......just alternative ways of accumulating individual thought. (or.....something like that! ) I hope others will give me a little leeway in my obscure thinking processes, and allow me my space.

-----odie-----

Kelly, I can respect your view as I started out in much the same way. However think of this :
1. If you had not seen someone else either use a method or create a unique piece would you have ever gotten there?
2. How much time (a valuable commodity even for us old retired) would you have spent solving the methodology w/o seeing others?
3. As you mention there is no "right vs wrong" it is the trip that counts.
4. What is the real point of beating a dead horse as he will not carry you anywhere?
5. If we cannot share (and you do that so are you now part of the herd....LOL) what is communication?
Just my perspective. Oh by the way never assume everyone is as smart as you or can do everything you can (a story in that I could tell). Some can only absorb and function at one level.

 

[odie]

Kelly, I can respect your view as I started out in much the same way. However think of this :
1. If you had not seen someone else either use a method or create a unique piece would you have ever gotten there?
2. How much time (a valuable commodity even for us old retired) would you have spent solving the methodology w/o seeing others?
3. As you mention there is no "right vs wrong" it is the trip that counts.
4. What is the real point of beating a dead horse as he will not carry you anywhere?
5. If we cannot share (and you do that so are you now part of the herd....LOL) what is communication?
Just my perspective. Oh by the way never assume everyone is as smart as you or can do everything you can (a story in that I could tell). Some can only absorb and function at one level.

Lawrence.......I was turning for 24 years before I ever communicated in ANY way, with any other turners at all, EVER ......so, the answer is yes......I could have, and DID travel my own personal journey in turning. I know exactly what day it was when I first mingled thought with other turners, because it was right here, on this AAW forum, when that happened! By that time, I was already exhibiting my work in several art galleries. (I am now only pursuing online sales) It would be wrong to say that I haven't been influenced by other turners since that time, but I was well on my way to establishing my own personal techniques and procedures. It was a very secluded way of learning to turn. Prior to the time when I first reached out to contact other turners, I did do some rudimentary research through books, and a few of the early VHS videos, but the bulk of my knowledge was gotten by the way many turners did it in times of old.....when there was nothing but self determination for motivation.

There are some things I do in my shop that I feel are unique to me. To preserve that, I have never shared a few of these things with anyone else. These little "inventions", special home-made tools, and procedures that I'm unwilling to share..... are because I feel I'd lose my identity as a turner, if I did. (Sorry! ) These small unique things are mostly self-taught, and self-discovered from those early days......and the process continues to this day, with some more recent adjustments and revelations. I may re-evaluate my stubborn "attitude" about this at some point in the future, because I might wish to pass on to others everything I possibly can before I check-out of this world!.....and, then again, I may not!

The bottom line is this: I am willing and anxious to communicate, and share knowledge (within the above limitations)......and, I am open to ideas and knowledge from others........but, I am not willing to adjust to "herd think" on all possible levels. The "herd" is something I keep at arm's length, because it is specifically what muddies my waters! (if, not for a better description )

My bowl turning is strictly "on the lathe", and I seldom pursue embellishment. It's fine that others do embellishment, but it's not what I wish to do. (I do, and always have appreciated well done embellishment, though.) My beliefs in what "turning art" is, are not in line with much of "the herd". To my thinking, "turning art" is that which is done ON the lathe. My directions are more in tune with what newbies do, before they decide to change course and pursue other things.....but, refined to a degree that I feel distinguishes me in some of the basics of bowl turning. This is simply because a very high percentage of turners today don't choose a sustained pursuit of the bowl turning basics with the same vigor and determination that I do. (This is not a hobby, or done simply for my own personal amusement......it is my whole direction in life! )

-----odie-----

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

Hey Kelly nice expression of your history in learning and turning. One point on the "turners of old" is that in the old medieval times you could not turn on your own . You would have to be apprenticed to a Master for several years. These strictures were also legally enforced . Just an aside to what we can do now in modern times.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Hey Kelly nice expression of your history in learning and turning. One point on the "turners of old" is that in the old medieval times you could not turn on your own . You would have to be apprenticed to a Master for several years. These strictures were also legally enforced . Just an aside to what we can do now in modern times.

Also, from what I have read, under the guild system, an apprentice wasn't allowed to be creative, at least not until he reached the end of his apprenticeship. which typically was about the age of 21. You did things exactly as the master said. Orphans and children of the poor could be put into an indentured apprenticeship sometimes from early childhood.

The "good old days" were highly overrated.

 

[RichColvin]

There are some things I do in my shop that I feel are unique to me. To preserve that, I have never shared a few of these things with anyone else. These little "inventions", special home-made tools, and procedures that I'm unwilling to share..... are because I feel I'd lose my identity as a turner, if I did. (Sorry! ) These small unique things are mostly self-taught, and self-discovered from those early days......and the process continues to this day, with some more recent adjustments and revelations. I may re-evaluate my stubborn "attitude" about this at some point in the future, because I might wish to pass on to others everything I possibly can before I check-out of this world!.....and, then again, I may not!

Odie,

in my business, I deal with a lot of old technology that we (unfortunately) still have around. I have to spend a fair amount of time educating millennials on how to keep this stuff running. I see that as my duty.

And I have seen great technologies and techniques that have been lost to the ages. How did the Egyptians build the pyramids ? How did the Rapa Nui get all those giant heads in place on Easter Island? The Chinese were casting large steel pieces 1000 years ago that apparently we have trouble doing today.

I won't criticize you for the work you do : I've seen your web site and it is great. Similarly, I have learned great ideas about shop organization from you that I have replicated. And I thank you for that.

My ask is this : please don't hoard any knowledge and let it get lost when you go meet your maker. Please write it down somewhere, or make a video, or train a small group. My bet is that these things you reference would be awesome for the rest of us to incorporate into this craft we all enjoy so much.

With kind regards and great respect,
Rich

 

[stu senator]

Odie

All our work is based on the collective knowledge of the human past.

Is this called herd think?

Is the lathe you used when you started purchased? It was developed and produced and sold and made a profit for the manufacture for the herd. The same is true of the tools, steel, sharpening system etc. that you use.

We all use tools and techniques from the past and we, hopefully, develop our own techniques for them.

Perhaps some of your techniques and tools will someday become part of the collective knowledge (herd think) of the turning community.

Stu

 

[odie]

All our work is based on the collective knowledge of the human past.

Not always, Stu........sometimes, a few creative individuals have original thoughts that ultimately pioneer new methods of accomplishing tasks.

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

All our work is based on the collective knowledge of the human past.

Not always, Stu........sometimes, a few creative individuals have original thoughts that ultimately pioneer new methods of accomplishing tasks.

Kelly, can you give us a few examples?

I see a lot of folks doing original works on the lathe. Many coming up with new methods and tools.
I don’t know of any who did so without a base of understanding, knowledge, and skill built through contact with others.
What they are doing is stretching the envelop not creating a new isolated method.

 

[odie]

Kelly, can you give us a few examples?

I see a lot of folks doing original works on the lathe. Many coming up with new methods and tools.
I don’t know of any who did so without a base of understanding, knowledge, and skill built through contact with others.
What they are doing is stretching the envelop not creating a new isolated method.

Yes, I could.......

A few are creating a new isolated method.

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

Yes, I could.......

A few are creating a new isolated method.

-----odie-----

Please share any that are not based on knowledge and skills built through contact with others.

One thing that separates turning from most other art forms is the free sharing of information.
The top turners share their methods.

 

[odie]

Please share any that are not based on knowledge and skills not built through contact with others.

One thing that separates turning from most other art forms is the free sharing of information.
The top turners share their methods.

Throughout history, there are always those who do things for the first time, based on a completely original, and exclusive thought. Do you deny that?

-----odie-----

 

[hockenbery]

Throughout history, there are always those who do things for the first time, based on a completely original, and exclusive thought. Do you deny that?

Absolutely, Every example I can think of was based a knowledge built through others.

Inventions, scientific discoverys, novels, painting, poetry, music, woodturning innovations.
Are all made by people who use the work done by others.

Music probably comes the closest. There are savants who create original music without any training but they have all heard music created by others.

Darwin, Newton, Bosch all had original thoughts and made giant leaps.
Darwin- Evolution was well known. He explained the process by which it occurred.
Newton - Invented calculus to express how function values change but he didn’t invent functions
Trent Bosch - vessel of illusion combined woodbending and hollow turning
Trent Bosch - video hollowing when he came up with the idea the common reaction was “no that can’t be it’s too simple”. Think of the thousands of hollow turners who were making videos.

Neil deGrasse Tyson Has suggested that all the great scientific discovery’s would have been made eventually uall if the originator had not made them. As enough people looked at the same facts someone else would eventually come up with an identical conclusion. He also said that in Art we would not have the Mona Lisa if Michelangelo had not painted it.

 

[stu senator]

Yes, I could.......

A few are creating a new isolated method.

-----odie-----

But these are based on tool, material and knowledge stored in your brain and modified by your skill, knowledge and artistry to create new knowledge.

If it is isolated it will be lost till someone else thinks of it and if it is a good idea they will get the credit.

Stu

 

[odie]

The top turners share their methods.

If they didn't share everything.......how would you know they didn't?

-----odie-----

 

[odie]

If it is isolated it will be lost till someone else thinks of it and if it is a good idea they will get the credit.

Getting credit is meaningless, and has no bearing on an originator's ability to produce.....and, can be that which destroys any pioneering effort to be unique within a group of producers. It's exactly why patents are issued.

-----odie-----

 

[stu senator]

It's exactly why patents are issued.

And patents give the originator 20 years to make a profit on the invention with no competition but the knowledge of the invention is shared with the collective knowledge (CK) of the world to build upon.

Or you could do what coke cola does and keep it a trade secret.

If "Getting credit is meaningless, and has no bearing on an originator's ability to produce" then produce all you want but with no credit there is no market.

If you want to produce but want no credit why all the posts on this forum for woodturners who are the ones who would appreciate your work on a technical basis. On an artistic basis this group is made up of individuals with many varied artistic tastes but I would think not many sales.

Stu

 

[William Rogers]

There are some interesting points. One about "secrets"(sharing), and "lathe" art. I am not as accomplished as many of the turners here and have greatly benefited from the knowledge shared. Having to learn without help would be much harder to progress. So from that perspective if I come up with something i would easily share it. However I can also understand someone who has developed something without input. One of the mysteries of wood turning is "how did he do that?".

Regarding the art question. To me if a bowl is turned on the lathe and embelished is just as much lathe art as a bowl turned and not embelished. I live in southern Indiana, and if it doesnt grow near me I don't turn it. I have mostly bland wood I can't afford to buy exotic woods and rarely get a burl. Just because you turn an exotic wood that nature has "embelished" doesn't make it any more art than someone who does something off lathe to add characteristics. I just don't buy the argument embelished turned pieces are not lathe art.