Safety in new shop for Seniors

[Karl Stauber]

I'm fortunate to be part of a senior community in NC that is building a woodworking shop for residents. As part of the organizing committee, we are looking for good examples of safety protocols and best practices. Suggestions and leads greatly appreciated. Experience levels will range from first timers to masters, people who have run large commercial operations to those used to working alone in home shops. The shop will be 30' x 32' with high quality donated equipment and participants with lots of strong opinions. I look forward to your ideas. Karl Stauber

 

[Mike Harman]

Hi Karl
Congratulations on setting up the workshop. I am the shed Boss at a men's shed in NZ and as such have overall responsibility for safety etc. What we do is have an induction type of system whereby every member has to learn all about the machine that they want to use BEFORE they are allowed to turn it on then when they first use it they are supervised until they are deemed to be a safe operator. we have been going for six years now with this system and to date have not had any accidents. (touch wood it stays this way).
I spent the majority of my working life in the timber and woodworking game starting out as a boat builder and we have members who have similar backgrounds either builders and even a wood turner that did an apprenticeship. It is only us people four in total that are allowed to instruct in the safe procedure of operating By the way our workshop is 16 meters by 8 meters and is two stories the bottom being dug into a bank we have all the rowdy machines downstairs with our timber racks and all the small saws lathes etc upstairs. we also have a safety officer that keeps me on my toes. I hope that all of this is of some help to you
Cheers and good luck
Mike

 

[Karl Stauber]

Mike--
Just what I'm looking for. Any materials, standards or other info you can share will be appreciated. Wish I had visited you right before C-19, when I spent 3 weeks on the South Island. NZ is an amazing place. Best, Karl

 

[hockenbery]

You’ll have fun and a few headaches….

There are lots of process and procedures to work through. One biggie for you is whether to allow people to work alone

I’ve done demos in two of retirement community workshops.
Both seemed to run quite smoothly. One seemed to have few rules the other was quite regimented almost like a high school shop with a specific location to store every piece of equipment - I got a joking chastisement when I switched tool rests and put the one I was using in the location that “belonged” to the one is was going to use next.

At Md Hall, Annapolis, we had a woodturning coop. Coop members got a key to the classroom and could use the equipment when Md hall was open and classes were not in session. A security guard would circulate about every hour checking in any unlocked room some safety for people working alone be it instructor or coop member.

1. Membership approval had to be signed off on by an instructor. The instructor was saying the individual had the woodturning skills and safety training to be able to work alone in the studio/classroom.

2. Bandsaw use required special permission. And short tutorial on using the saw safely and adjusting the saw.

3. Coop members agreed to clean the lathes, floor, and work benches when leaving for the day.

4. We had lockers - verticals old high school lockers. Members were asked to put a lock on their locker and only use one.
Some students got two if there were extra. Having a place to store tools, face shields, smock was a nice benefit.


One sad note to consider is theft. I know of a woodturner in a local club nearby who was banned from a craft school for stealing a chuck.

 

[RichColvin]

Karl, I'd think adding cameras which could be monitored by security would be a good idea. Not so much from the theft perspective, but more from the idea that, if someone does get hurt or is fallen and not moving, then security can dispatch medical assistance quickly (rather than waiting for a touring guard to hopefully stop by).

 

[Karl Stauber]

Thanks Al and Rich. All good suggestions. Keep them coming! Karl

 

[Monty Ivy]

A sad truth in these times... Talk to an attorney. Participants must sign a release...etc.

 

[Mike Harman]

Hi Karl
We also have cameras in the shed and on the exterior mainly for security purposes. Thw cameras we have run through a recorder that can record 24/7 for 40 days then it resets and starts again automaticaly. we have never had to use it for internal matters. But we do have a book for recording any accidents and a first aide kit that is for minor injuries. Our attitude is that none of us are doctors and if a member has a major then it is straight off to the accident and emerganicy unit around the corner believe me over the years i have sen some terrible injuries fingers taken off on a buzzer etc.
One safety feature we have is a push stick by every machine and these must be used if a member is caught not using them then they are warned the first time the second time they are banned from operating any machinery until tyhey hjave completed a refresher course by myself as shed boss if after then they are caught again they are banned from operating as we cannot afford the OSH ( government inspectors ) to be involved
If You want to PM me then I will send you alot more stuff . on the shed that I do not think shoulod be on this site. eg like how our board to run the shed is set up and how it is made up etc.
Cheers Mike

 

[Mark Jundanian]

Good advice above. Some quick additional thoughts.
A competent first aid kit. A method to call 911, such as a number of wired phones in the shop (do they still make big button phones?). But I think the biggest challenge for safety is keeping tools aligned and sharp. It's hard enough to decide when to change blades when you're the only user.

 

[Dean Center]

You are wise to be considering this, Karl.

I have been a member of our local Senior Center Woodworking group for a number of years and it's the Wild West. Things I have observed:

• As you mentioned, older guys are pretty opinionated.
• They think they know everything they need to know, because they took 8th grade shop 60 years ago and have used a circular saw twice since. In reality, they don't read the manuals and they don't truly know how to operate the equipment. I would strongly support a training/testing session before an individual gets permission to use a particular piece of equipment.
• For several reasons, the tools are abused. It's not their shop, they don't care about optimum accuracy, their vision isn't so good, they're only going to do one quick thing, etc. Having someone be the 'champion' for a particular piece of equipment, to do regular, routine maintenance would be ideal.
• Things that need fixing or adjusting get ignored. It's not my tool, it's not my job, I only need to do one thing, etc. See 'champions', above.
• There's turnover. Senior Center folks graduate to being unable to woodwork or pass way. Some system of succession planning would ideally be in place. A Junior champion or champion in training.
• The shop gets a lot of beaten up and out of date donations. You don't want to hurt people's feelings, but the volume of donations and what to do with them can get to be a problem.
• Nobody likes confrontation, nobody wants to be seen as the Gestapo, and Grumpy Old Men are terrible at taking perceived criticism, so enforcement of the agreed upon rules doesn't happen. There's probably a solution, but Solomon is on another call.

All that being said, it's a wonderful resource and a joy to be able to access a full shop. When the tool you need is working. And sharp. And not coated in some mysterious goo.

Good luck.

 

[Dean Center]

Oh, and they have no clue about contemporary concepts of safety equipment or practices.

 

[robo hippy]

Does any one ever read the owner's manuals?????

robo hippy

 

[Mark Jundanian]

As a mattrr of fact, yes.

 

[Roger Wiegand]

Does any one ever read the owner's manuals?????

robo hippy

I tried that with my new-to-me jointer/planer; after 54 pages of warnings not to stick my fingers into the moving blade and don't operate it while standing in salt water I gave up and got on with making shavings. Having a searchable online version is fantastic when you actually need to find something. The manual is about 400 pages total, plus another 100 pages of parts lists and diagrams, mostly in Italian transliterated to English. I've been studying Italian in my spare time and found the original Italian version to be more useful.

It's a great resource to have that much detail, but you would be hard pressed to learn how to actually use the machine from it. A 5 minute hands-on lesson from someone who can show you how to feed a board through a jointer to have it come out flat would be much more effective.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I know you are looking for ideas to promote safety and adherence but there are copious amounts of materials written on safety.

There is a safety handbook on AAW site. Just search for safety. There is info on turners with limitations as well as teaching safety and general safety instructions.

 

[Mike Harman]

Yes we do read the owners manuals that come with the machines and they are stored in drawer that everyone has access to

 

[Daniel Henry]

Oh, and they have no clue about contemporary concepts of safety equipment or practices.I

I know; I tried talking to my Dad about dust and hearing protection. When he died of lung cancer, he was hearing impaired! His "go to" excuse was, "it's to late".

 

[Dean Center]

I know; I tried talking to my Dad about dust and hearing protection. When he died of lung cancer, he was hearing impaired! His "go to" excuse was, "it's to late".

One of the best medical studies ever looked at whether it was 'too late' to quit smoking. You had to be over 65 to get in the study. After a couple years, the smokers who quit were absolutely doing better than those who didn't. Except for advanced metastatic lung cancer, it's never too late to benefit from protective gear.

 

[Karl Stauber]

My thanks to all of you. Will be sharing all of this with the volunteer founding board. We all know that if we do not succeed at safety, the CEO of our non-profit retirement community will shut us down, as he should. Best, Karl

 

[Karl Stauber]

I know you are looking for ideas to promote safety and adherence but there are copious amounts of materials written on safety.

There is a safety handbook on AAW site. Just search for safety. There is info on turners with limitations as well as teaching safety and general safety instructions.

Gerald--You must be better at the search stuff than I am. I started there and found very little on the AAW website. No manual apparent. That is why I went this route. Any suggestions welcome. Karl

 

[Brian Gustin]

Gerald--You must be better at the search stuff than I am. I started there and found very little on the AAW website. No manual apparent. That is why I went this route. Any suggestions welcome. Karl

I didn't even need to search , myself when I first joined - On AAW member website once logged in, menu across the top: Resources-> Safety , and then : Communities->Specialty Programs (It pays to explore the whole website.)

and I think I remember seeing a couple other places where such info can be had (I think some of it was under the Chapters -> Starting a new chapter , or some such.. )

Lot of resources and info on the website, some of it just takes a little digging. I rarely rely on search on any website's search feature - I'd do a Google search for the most part (which often gets me links to forums like this to begin with)

As a thought: Some browsers may have trouble with displaying the website menus properly , so just FYI: the main menu links at top, should drop down more options as you mouseover them - If they don't do that for you, it may be a web browser issue.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

Does any one ever read the owner's manuals?????

robo hippy

Only when I have spare parts.

 

[Brian Deakin]

I believe 3 of the most important things to do are
(1) Contantly give regular in the moment feedback to all members on both good and less tha ideal behavior
If speaking to members is seen as a normal part of attending the club then feedback is more likley to address behavior and not be taken personally
(2) Think thorough what action would you take if there was a serious accident /incident
eg Major blood loss ,heart attack
Discus with committee members and decide on a course of action
Example We have a difibrillator located close to the shop and have encouraged committee members to watch a youtube video on thier use
Additionally we have purchaed what is called in the Uk a number 3 ambulance dressing This is a large dressing for major blood loss We decided there was no need to have a range of sizes for a major accident and just use a large dressing
(3) If a member asks a question eg where is an item stored then also tell all of the member present because he or she will not be the only one does not know
Over time this will grow the knowledge of all members and free the committee from having to answer the same question
Taken together these, 3 examples encourage participation ownership and grow member knowledge over time and it is likley members may want to be more involved in the club and perhaps even join the committe

 

[robo hippy]

Hmm, thinking it would be good to have some one, maybe with the center, with at least Red Cross training, and a good medical kit. Since it is a seniors center, they may already have that.

robo hippy

 

[Karl Stauber]

I didn't even need to search , myself when I first joined - On AAW member website once logged in, menu across the top: Resources-> Safety , and then : Communities->Specialty Programs (It pays to explore the whole website.)

and I think I remember seeing a couple other places where such info can be had (I think some of it was under the Chapters -> Starting a new chapter , or some such.. )

Lot of resources and info on the website, some of it just takes a little digging. I rarely rely on search on any website's search feature - I'd do a Google search for the most part (which often gets me links to forums like this to begin with)

As a thought: Some browsers may have trouble with displaying the website menus properly , so just FYI: the main menu links at top, should drop down more options as you mouseover them - If they don't do that for you, it may be a web browser issue.

Thanks Brian. Good suggestions. "Shop safety" clearly wasn't getting me the results I wanted. Karl

 

[Mike Harman]

Hi Kar;l
Just an update on a new machine and how we are controlling it.
We got a grant to purchase a new spiral thickneser which was factory set for gauged timber and if you wanted to dress rough sawn timber the feed rollers need to adjusted. as we have an old blade type thicknesser we decided that the old one would do the rough and painted timber. the new one paint will clog the cutters .
To make sure that we have total control on the new one we had a key switch fitted, this means that if some one wants to use it they have to see me as shed boss or my assistant as we hold the keys. so far this has worked well I dont know if this idea is any use to you
Cheers Mike

 

[Karl Stauber]

Thanks Mike. Excellent idea for the most dangerous machines. Will add to our plans. Best, Karl

 

[Mike Harman]

Hi Karl
Yes the Key system works well. There is also a Table saw out there that is supposed to stop as soon as a finger touches the blade. Wer do NOT have one and will NOT be getting one for two reasons. The first is that the sales man was not prepared to give us a demonstration so it makes me wonder just how effective it realy ishis excuse was that the stop part would have to be replaced at a cost in NZ of $800??? on a machine that costs over $3000.
The second is that myself and other ex trade men in the shed still have all our fingers intact after an average each of 40 years plus in the trade and we all thought that this would breed contempt and a laxadacical attitude which would lead to unsafe practise in the shed.
Cheers Mike

 

[Russell Nugent]

Saw Stop is pretty well established and has proven effective.

 

[Mike Harman]

may be so but as I said it is not the switch it is the attitude to safety and alot of us as I said worked for over forty years in the trade without such a thing except common sense and that is what I was pushing not the magic switch and I would like to know if you or any of your crew has had the nerve to try it out My bet is not. As a shed Boss safety is tyhe most important issue and contempt is not safety that is what we were talking about

 

[robo hippy]

There are plenty of old tradesmen who have all of their fingers, and plenty who have lost a finger or two. I have a couple of friends who had commercial woodshops and got the sawstop after some one in the shop lost a finger. In a shop that has a lot of 'less experienced' people coming through and using the tools, I would consider it essential. Engineer's conundrum, "You can never invent some thing that is idiot proof. As soon as you do, some one invents a better idiot." I don't know how much the aluminum stop blocks cost, but I would not want to replace one. Some of the bigger woodworking tool stores will have demos where they put a nick in the hotdog. Some times the blade is toast, some times it can be repaired. Still cheaper than a trip to the emergency room....

robo hippy

 

[Dean Center]

One of the most dangerous aspects of senior wood shops is that the guys know it all and don't listen to safety suggestions. Another dangerous aspect is that we are none of us as mentally sharp as we were when we were 40, and our muscles and vision are not as good, either. If all of your guys are fastidiously safety conscious, good for you. That has been the opposite of our experience.

BTW, the SawStop company and maybe other folks have posted videos online that show how effective the contraption is, using a hot dog instead of a finger. The darn thing really works.

 

[Brian Gustin]

There are plenty of old tradesmen who have all of their fingers, and plenty who have lost a finger or two. I have a couple of friends who had commercial woodshops and got the sawstop after some one in the shop lost a finger. In a shop that has a lot of 'less experienced' people coming through and using the tools, I would consider it essential. Engineer's conundrum, "You can never invent some thing that is idiot proof. As soon as you do, some one invents a better idiot." I don't know how much the aluminum stop blocks cost, but I would not want to replace one. Some of the bigger woodworking tool stores will have demos where they put a nick in the hotdog. Some times the blade is toast, some times it can be repaired. Still cheaper than a trip to the emergency room....

robo hippy

Yep. Replacment cartridges are I think $60 or so (can get them direct from SawStop) Even a $150 blade plus cartridge is about $210 - compare that to how much you'd pay at the E.R. for doctors visit , stitching, x-rays, etc in the event that you might have needed the sawstop mechanism and didn't have it. I'd call it cheap insurance! Along with a new lathe, a SawStop table saw is next on my "Must Buy First" list.

 

[Ron Solfest]

You can find a youtube video of the SawStop inventor putting *his* finger into the blade to show that it works, granted he did so gingerly but it still demonstrates the saw's capability.

I personally purchased a SawStop before I turned 60 after watching my father (who worked with tablesaws for more than 40yrs) and my father-in-law (less experienced, but still over 15yrs) put their thumbs into spinning tablesaw blades in their late 60's. Fortunately neither lost the finger, but both had lots of pain, emergency room bills, and rehab. That convinced me that even though I was very comfortable around tablesaws that I had used for well over 30yrs I would sell my 5yr old Unisaw and replace it with a SawStop which is a very good saw in it's own right.

Since then I've moved into an RV community where virtually everyone is retired. I know of 5 SawStop owners here, one has fired his off *twice*. Unfortunately I also know of several that don't own SawStop's, one of which cut off a finger 2 years ago. BTW - he just purchased a SawStop when another neighbor was selling his...too bad it wasn't a couple years ago.

 

[Ron Solfest]

*Just* heard of another neighbor that cut off his thumb a month ago on his tablesaw. SawStop’s are a blessing, especially as we all get older.

 

[Karl Stauber]

Thanks to all for the exchange. New technology, especially replacement technology creates similar debates. Reminds me of the debate over rear wheel verses front wheel drive in cars. Price is a barrier to adoption, as is previous investments in technology. It is hard to give up what works and is paid for, even when the new technology reduces risk.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Hi Karl
Yes the Key system works well. There is also a Table saw out there that is supposed to stop as soon as a finger touches the blade. Wer do NOT have one and will NOT be getting one for two reasons. The first is that the sales man was not prepared to give us a demonstration so it makes me wonder just how effective it realy ishis excuse was that the stop part would have to be replaced at a cost in NZ of $800??? on a machine that costs over $3000.
The second is that myself and other ex trade men in the shed still have all our fingers intact after an average each of 40 years plus in the trade and we all thought that this would breed contempt and a laxadacical attitude which would lead to unsafe practise in the shed.
Cheers Mike

The mere mention of Sawstop can start an ungodly melee in some places. They patented the flesh-sensing (moisture-sensing really) brake system and are the main purveyors. A couple of European manufacturers have come up with their own systems recently but they are seldom seen as yet. Sawstop tried unsuccessfully to get the federal government to mandate use of their system on new saws sold in the US, causing considerable backlash amongst many woodworkers. As well, your concern about an over-reliance on a safety device rather than proper practice is widespread. That said, the technology has been proven to work and is considered cheap insurance in many shops although it does not prevent kickback injuries. In the US the replacement cost of the brake is under $100, plus usually the blade has to be replaced. The brake can be triggered by wet wood or embedded metal but there is a test sensor and a shutoff for use with suspected wet material.