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Salad Bowl Finish Fail

Donna Banfield

Donna Banfield

TOTW Team
Joined
May 19, 2004
Messages
617
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2,032
Location
Derry, NH
These images are from a bowl I made in 2003. It belongs to a family member. I had been turning for about a 18 months at this point, and I was using Salad Bowl Finish, because that's all that I knew. I don't use this for a finish any more, and you can see why.

In 2004 or 2005 I began using oils, and applying all my finishes OFF the lathe. So for woodturners looking for a quick and easy finish, this is what your bowl will look like after a few years. Wipe-on poly, Salad Bowl Finish, anything that is a film finish will sit on the surface. And if you're using the lathe to apply it, you're not allowing any of it to penetrate the surface. It eventually wears off. And as it wears off, it doesn't look pretty. Salad Bowl finish fail 1.jpg Salad Bowl Finish fail 2.jpg
 
Well, it looks like it has been loved and used to me. If you achieved that, then you have a winner.
 
Agree a film finish should not be used for a project that will have utensils touch it. One of the prepolymerized walnut oil finishes is what I use.

I use a lot of wipe on poly and some oil for other finishes. I may start the application off the lathe but all get finished on the lathe. It may be wet sanding, wipe down, or buffing (drill mounted buffs vs a Beal method). I prefer to have the piece mounted vs a mounted sanding pad or buff. I mention this for 2 reasons: 1) the piece can have oil or varnish applied on the lathe, at slow ~100 rpm) speed, and 2) it requires the project holding method to be retained through finishing.
 
Ditto Doug. I never use film finishes (Wipe-On Poly, lacquer and similar) on any item that will be used in the kitchen (salad bowls, ice cream scoops and similar). Only use oil finishes (Mahoney's Finishing Oil, Liberon Finishing Oil and similar). Never had a finish fail when using oil finishes on kitchen ware. - John
 
RichColvin said:
Well, it looks like it has been loved and used to me. If you achieved that, then you have a winner.
Click to expand...

I encourage my customers to use my bowls regularly. And since moving to an oil-based finish, hand-rubbed, off the lathe, several coats every 24 hours, for about a week, those bowls show use, but the finish is still there. That said, if the end use was intended for anything hot (porridge, oatmeal, soup, utensils for stirring pots on the stove), then no finish is my choice.
 
Donna, good to see what I do being done by more experienced turners. I decided when I first started to not use surface finishes. I like my bowls to look and feel like wood. Not wood with a plastic coating - no offense to those that do all the high end finishes. Too complex for me. I use walnut oil but interested in your process of multiple coats over a long period of time. Never done that. I put a couple of coats on (depending on how the wood absorbs it) with a grey scotch brite pad, let sit for a while then buff with same and then done. I don't do any finishes on the lathe. That said, I've gone back to some of my early bowls in inventory and have put another coat of oil on and buffed them a bit. They felt dry and customers feel them before they buy them. I might try your process. thanks
 
Randy, I used to use urethane oil, that was sold by Woodcraft. I never cared for the short shelf life that finish had. If I had a can that I didn't use up in about 6-8 weeks, the finish would begin to oxidize, (Skim over with a hard shell) making it useless. I now make my own 3-part finish, based loosely on the finish used by the late furniture maker, Sam Maloof, and more currently by Alan Lacer, master of the skew.

Equal parts of Boiled Linseed Oil, a high quality varnish (Fiddes is what I use), and turpentine or mineral spirits to thin the other two. Thinning it helps the first coat penetrate the surface. After the bowl is completely turned and sanded, I take the piece into my finish room (this is a sort of 'clean room'), where I also do my airbrushing, painting and photograph my work. I apply a liberal coat of the already mixed finish with a rag, and place the bowl on old bandsaw blades that have been cut into 10-12" lengths, and bent to make a 45 degree V-shape. The freshly coated bowl sits on the tips of a few teeth, for about an hour. The bowl gets another coating and immediately wiped dry with paper towels. After 24 hours, I lightly scuff the bowl with 0000 steel wool, use compressed air to blow off the debris, and repeat that entire process (apply finish, wait an hour, re-apply, sit for 24hrs) for about a week. Depending on the humidity, the bowls might have up to 36 hours in between coats. But they have at least 4 coats; some woods tend to soak up more oil and will get 5-6 coats. Then I let the finish cure. That takes about 30 days, or when I put the bowl up to my nose and take a deep breath, if I don't smell the finish, the curing is done. The bowls get buffed using the Beall Buffing system, and ready to go to one of the galleries that sell this work.

Yes, it seems like it's a lot of work, but people who purchased my bowls tell me that their bowl still looks as good today, as when they bought it 12-15 years ago.
 
Yep, that is a lot more work than I currently do. I'll have to give it some thought. One of my challenges is my local market is arts and craft shows in rural TN. I'm proud of my work and want it to look as good as it can and last but, there's the practical side of how much I can put into pieces for things folks here just won't pay for. I see all sorts of ideas and things I'd like to try, sometimes I do just for myself but for stuff I intend to sell my sweet spot for bowls is $50 - $100. I have only one or two events where folks will spend more than that. A very well turned traditional or natural edge bowl with walnut oil sells well for me. Somewhat frustrating because I'm at the stage where I want to "up my game" with some variety and higher end pieces but struggle with the "that looks awesome but will anyone buy it" dilemma. OK, I see my hour of therapy time is up so I'll shut up...sorry.
 
Randy and Russell, understand. I am very fortunate to live in an area of the country (New England) that still highly values well-made fine hand craft. Even more, that the League of NH Craftsmen, an organization that began in 1932, has fostered a reputation across the country for exceptionally well-made fine craft. I successfully juried into the League in 2010. There are 8 League affiliated galleries scattered throughout the state that carry work made by juried members of the organization. Work in this area can sell for between $100 for a 6-8" cherry bowl, and over $350 for a large (13-16") salad bowl. The League monitors quality, and work that falls below the standards for the specific media is pulled from the market.
 
Donna Banfield said:
Randy, I used to use urethane oil, that was sold by Woodcraft. I never cared for the short shelf life that finish had. If I had a can that I didn't use up in about 6-8 weeks, the finish would begin to oxidize, (Skim over with a hard shell) making it useless. I now make my own 3-part finish, based loosely on the finish used by the late furniture maker, Sam Maloof, and more currently by Alan Lacer, master of the skew.

Equal parts of Boiled Linseed Oil, a high quality varnish (Fiddes is what I use), and turpentine or mineral spirits to thin the other two.
Click to expand...

Hello Donna, I just put Sam's finish recipes, quoted from his book, into that recent thread "Instant Gratification- Finishes", at the bottom of page 1.
https://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/instant-gratification-finishes.16881/

Which brand of boiled linseed oil are you using? Have you experimented with a polymerized linseed oil in your recipe?

There aren't too many polymerized linseed oils out there, Tried & True Danish Oil is polymerized linseed oil. Blending my own finish in years past typically meant a 50/50 mix of Minwax oil-based varnish (brush on thickness) and pure tung oil, making essentially a spar varnish. Sometimes a 1:1:1 mix of those two along with mineral spirits.

Thanks,
Steve.
 
Donna Banfield said:
These images are from a bowl I made in 2003. It belongs to a family member. I had been turning for about a 18 months at this point, and I was using Salad Bowl Finish, because that's all that I knew. I don't use this for a finish any more, and you can see why.

In 2004 or 2005 I began using oils, and applying all my finishes OFF the lathe. So for woodturners looking for a quick and easy finish, this is what your bowl will look like after a few years. Wipe-on poly, Salad Bowl Finish, anything that is a film finish will sit on the surface. And if you're using the lathe to apply it, you're not allowing any of it to penetrate the surface. It eventually wears off. And as it wears off, it doesn't look pretty. View attachment 35970 View attachment 35971
Click to expand...
I had the very same problem long before you started turning, it is just another example of a poor unnecessary product.
 
Steve Tiedman said:
Hello Donna, I just put Sam's finish recipes, quoted from his book, into that recent thread "Instant Gratification- Finishes", at the bottom of page 1.
https://www.aawforum.org/community/index.php?threads/instant-gratification-finishes.16881/

Which brand of boiled linseed oil are you using? Have you experimented with a polymerized linseed oil in your recipe?

There aren't too many polymerized linseed oils out there, Tried & True Danish Oil is polymerized linseed oil. Blending my own finish in years past typically meant a 50/50 mix of Minwax oil-based varnish (brush on thickness) and pure tung oil, making essentially a spar varnish. Sometimes a 1:1:1 mix of those two along with mineral spirits.

Thanks,
Steve.
Click to expand...
Steve, I'm buying my Boiled Linseed Oil from a big box store, in gallon containers. I've not used Tried and True, so cannot make comments on them. In my very early days of figuring out finishes, I tried a true pure tung oil finish, and my experience was unpleasant. That may have been my own naivety in user error, I can't say. But I found something that works well, is durable and lasts a long time.

I use spar varnish on my outdoor furniture, and it's as thick as the Fiddes varnish I use. But I don't thin that, as I only apply one coat --every year :-(
 
Donna, your finish routine is very similar to mine. Which Fiddes varnish do you use, and why that particular brand/type? Have you experimented with other brands?
 
Doug Freeman said:
Donna, your finish routine is very similar to mine. Which Fiddes varnish do you use, and why that particular brand/type? Have you experimented with other brands?
Click to expand...
I have used Behlens Varnish, and found them both to be fine for use. My preference is to use the satin finish, but in a pinch I used semi-gloss. Lately, Behlens has been hard to find; I ordered my last case of Fiddes right from the manufacturer.
 
Donna Banfield said:
Equal parts of Boiled Linseed Oil, a high quality varnish (Fiddes is what I use), and turpentine or mineral spirits to thin the other two. Thinning it helps the first coat penetrate the surface. After the bowl is completely turned and sanded, I take the piece into my finish room (this is a sort of 'clean room'), where I also do my airbrushing, painting and photograph my work. I apply a liberal coat of the already mixed finish with a rag, and place the bowl on old bandsaw blades that have been cut into 10-12" lengths, and bent to make a 45 degree V-shape. The freshly coated bowl sits on the tips of a few teeth, for about an hour. The bowl gets another coating and immediately wiped dry with paper towels. After 24 hours, I lightly scuff the bowl with 0000 steel wool, use compressed air to blow off the debris, and repeat that entire process (apply finish, wait an hour, re-apply, sit for 24hrs) for about a week. Depending on the humidity, the bowls might have up to 36 hours in between coats. But they have at least 4 coats; some woods tend to soak up more oil and will get 5-6 coats. Then I let the finish cure. That takes about 30 days, or when I put the bowl up to my nose and take a deep breath, if I don't smell the finish, the curing is done. The bowls get buffed using the Beall Buffing system, and ready to go to one of the galleries that sell this work.
Click to expand...

Donna, in your original post, you mentioned you were avoiding a film finish. But I don't understand how the above is not a film finish. It is my understanding that anything with varnish will build a film. Diluting the varnish with BLO will limit the film build up, but nevertheless, it will build given enough coats.
 
Michael Nathal said:
Donna, in your original post, you mentioned you were avoiding a film finish. But I don't understand how the above is not a film finish. It is my understanding that anything with varnish will build a film. Diluting the varnish with BLO will limit the film build up, but nevertheless, it will build given enough coats.
Click to expand...

Read her process again - wiped dry before the finish dries. I use a very similar process, but not for anything that utensils will touch because it will still scratch up over time, just less than a film over the wood will.
 
Michael Nathal said:
Donna, in your original post, you mentioned you were avoiding a film finish. But I don't understand how the above is not a film finish. It is my understanding that anything with varnish will build a film. Diluting the varnish with BLO will limit the film build up, but nevertheless, it will build given enough coats.
Click to expand...
Doug is correct. The coats I put down are very thin, because I wipe them off after allowing them to sit for about an hour. Several coats put down in this way is still thinner than one single coat of a film finish put down and left to dry. But my experience is that those several coats are more durable and last longer with regular use when compared to the salad bowl finish.

Curious about the durability, at the end of the selling season in December 2005, I pulled two walnut bowls from my inventory to use in the house. They became our regular salad bowls, pouring the dressing right into the bowl, and eating using metal forks. More than a few nights they sat on the counter until morning before getting washed. Popcorn, chips, peanuts. They showed evidence of use, but not anything like the surface of the bowl shown in the image at the beginning of this thread. Sometime in 2013, I refreshed them with a single coat of my 3-part finish. Still look pretty good for their age and use.
 
Donna, that bowl from your first message, the finish looks similar to those found at a local restaurant. I can't eat there anymore- they send their wood plates through their commercial dishwasher and the chlorine smell is in the wood to prove it.

Is there a chance, even if not confessed, that the bowl went through a dishwasher? Is it allowed to soak in hot, soapy water in the sink?

I fully agree about no built surface film finishes on food contact turnings. I really don't make stuff with the intention of food contact, but the Tried & True product line of linseed oils would be my first choice for food contact work, acknowledging most wood finishes are generally considered food contact safe after a full curing of the finish (typically 30 days after application). I'm just not a fan of mass-market boiled linseed oil and the curing agents used in them. That is an admittedly subjective statement, but purer/safer alternatives are available. Even the Maloof recipe is compelling to me to swap the boiled linseed oil for the polymerized T&T linseed oil choices.

Steve.
 
Steve Tiedman said:
Donna, that bowl from your first message, the finish looks similar to those found at a local restaurant. I can't eat there anymore- they send their wood plates through their commercial dishwasher and the chlorine smell is in the wood to prove it.

Is there a chance, even if not confessed, that the bowl went through a dishwasher? Is it allowed to soak in hot, soapy water in the sink?

I fully agree about no built surface film finishes on food contact turnings. I really don't make stuff with the intention of food contact, but the Tried & True product line of linseed oils would be my first choice for food contact work, acknowledging most wood finishes are generally considered food contact safe after a full curing of the finish (typically 30 days after application). I'm just not a fan of mass-market boiled linseed oil and the curing agents used in them. That is an admittedly subjective statement, but purer/safer alternatives are available. Even the Maloof recipe is compelling to me to swap the boiled linseed oil for the polymerized T&T linseed oil choices.

Steve.
Click to expand...
While not 100%, I’m pretty sure the bowl didn’t go through a dishwasher. It belonged to my sister-in-law, and she knew the care instructions were it should never see the inside of a modern appliance: no dishwasher, refrigerator, microwave or regular oven.
 
Doug Freeman said:
All of the finishes we have discussed are considered food safe by the FDA once cured. I have a copy of the reg that goes through it. If anyone is interested I will find the # and post it.
Click to expand...

Yes, please, do post it.

Understanding that being safe for contact with food does not guarantee durability in that application.
 
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