Sanding Aids

[Perry Higgins]

Looking for some solid answers to these questions about sanding aids.
When to use each of the sanding sealers? Shellac sealer? Cellulose sealer? Lacquer sealer?
Do you use an abrasive sanding paste after a sanding sealer? In place of a sanding sealer? After a finish?
Will the use of any of the sanding sealers limit which finishes may be used?
Does the use of abrasive sanding paste limit the finishes that can be used?
Is there a table or reference that can be used to answer these concerns?

 

[Aaron Harris]

Perry-These are very useful questions that I often ask myself too, so I will be watching the responses with you. Frankly, the more I research sanding sealers, the more confused I get by all the differing opinions sometimes, so I rarely break out the Mylands cellulose sanding sealer that gives me the side-eye from the back of my finishes cabinet sometimes...I do know that some great turners recommend a sanding sealer before using an abrasive paste. There are some very helpful finish compatibility charts out there; I've seen it here somewhere, probably on another thread like this one. I expect someone will re-post it directly. If not, Chestnut Products actually sells a poster-sized chart for your shop wall (though I would just try to find a free one to download myself): Finish Compatibility Chart

I can tell you from my own extensive use of Yorkshire Grit and EEE abrasive pastes that both work beautifully over a bare, well-sanded surface with no sanding sealer involved (so one less step). If I'm doing entry-level spindle work for my craft show table (bottle openers and such), I will usually just sand to 220, then on with the paste. On a bowl I want a fine finish on, I might sand all the way to 600 or 800 and then do the friction polish. Then just take a folded shop towel and "friction polish" off the excess. From there, I have successfully applied TruOil gunstock finish, all of the Tried and True oils, and Doctor's Woodshop Walnut Oil and Wax successfully with zero issues. I'm mostly a hand-rubbed oil finish guy, so I can't speak to your various poly's, lacquers, etc., though I may try that on an inexpensive spindle piece to see how it does.

I do know that some turners use an abrasive paste on top of the finish with great results, I would assume after it has fully cured. I haven't done that (yet), but I bet it would take that shine that next step further. I have usually just gone to the Beall buffs when I want that kind of shine, but like many on here, I am always experimenting, chasing that holy grail of the "perfect finish." I hope this helps. I have often found that sometimes you just have to experiment as you let your experience and instincts tell you what would probably work where.

 

[hughie]

I use EEE as a sanding abrasive and any final finish I wish to use goes over it with no problem, it is my go-to abrasive paste without any additional cleanup or waiting period. As for using an abrasive finish like EEE on the final coat etc, for me it's too coarse, cotton buffing is the way I go.
I think in the plethora of finishes etc you could easily get lost, so keeping it simple KISS is my general rule

 

[David Wyke]

Looking for some solid answers to these questions about sanding aids.
When to use each of the sanding sealers? Shellac sealer? Cellulose sealer? Lacquer sealer?
Do you use an abrasive sanding paste after a sanding sealer? In place of a sanding sealer? After a finish?
Will the use of any of the sanding sealers limit which finishes may be used?
Does the use of abrasive sanding paste limit the finishes that can be used?
Is there a table or reference that can be used to answer these concerns?

I can only speak for how and what I use.
Shellac and Cellulose sealers are both good products.
I use Shellac to firm up soft areas in wood or bark inclusions, I usually use thin CA for the bark inclusions but it depends on the piece and how it will be used. I use shellac as a sealer for poly or wipe on poly for wine stoppers, decorative pieces, and pepper grinders. I also use it before I spray lacquer sometimes if it is a large decorative piece.
Cellulose and lacquer sealer is fairly close to the same product. If you smell cellulose sealer you should get a distinctive lacquer smell. Lacquer by itself is also use a a sealer in some applications. The cellulose sealer has other additives to help close the pours of the wood and is usually thicker than lacquer sealer . If a smaller piece I will use the cellulose to seal before applying lacquer, large piece I will use shellac.
I do not used cellulose sealer with polyurethane or wipe on poly. It takes a long time for poly to dry on top of cellulose sealer and I’m not sure the poly will adhere to the cellulose as well as it will to shellac.
I’ve never used abrasive paste so cannot comment on that. I do use 0000 steel wool after using any type sealer to remove nips and smooth it out before applying a top coat.

 

[Kent Reisdorph]

Like David said, I can only speak to what I use.

I use shellac for firming up punky wood and for a sanding sealer on porous woods. If I'm doing a display piece I will use Yorkshire grit by itself for tight-grained woods and after shellac (and sanding) on other woods. I have no experience with cellulose sealer.

 

[John K Jordan]

I don't know of a simple answer for you list of questions.
For me, what I use, if anything, depends on a lot of factors - the wood, the finish I want, the intended purpose of the thing - to use, to look pretty?
Caveat - I like super smooth on many things but I usually don't go for mirror gloss finishes

On REALLY punky wood - pinky nail dentable - I sometime use thin CA glue to harden the wood. Any finish I've used goes on well over that.
And almost any finish works well over shellac. When in doubt, turn a sample piece of some wood you like and experiment on different patches.

JKJ

 

[Perry Higgins]

Perry-These are very useful questions that I often ask myself too, so I will be watching the responses with you. Frankly, the more I research sanding sealers, the more confused I get by all the differing opinions sometimes, so I rarely break out the Mylands cellulose sanding sealer that gives me the side-eye from the back of my finishes cabinet sometimes...I do know that some great turners recommend a sanding sealer before using an abrasive paste. There are some very helpful finish compatibility charts out there; I've seen it here somewhere, probably on another thread like this one. I expect someone will re-post it directly. If not, Chestnut Products actually sells a poster-sized chart for your shop wall (though I would just try to find a free one to download myself): Finish Compatibility Chart

I can tell you from my own extensive use of Yorkshire Grit and EEE abrasive pastes that both work beautifully over a bare, well-sanded surface with no sanding sealer involved (so one less step). If I'm doing entry-level spindle work for my craft show table (bottle openers and such), I will usually just sand to 220, then on with the paste. On a bowl I want a fine finish on, I might sand all the way to 600 or 800 and then do the friction polish. Then just take a folded shop towel and "friction polish" off the excess. From there, I have successfully applied TruOil gunstock finish, all of the Tried and True oils, and Doctor's Woodshop Walnut Oil and Wax successfully with zero issues. I'm mostly a hand-rubbed oil finish guy, so I can't speak to your various poly's, lacquers, etc., though I may try that on an inexpensive spindle piece to see how it does.

I do know that some turners use an abrasive paste on top of the finish with great results, I would assume after it has fully cured. I haven't done that (yet), but I bet it would take that shine that next step further. I have usually just gone to the Beall buffs when I want that kind of shine, but like many on here, I am always experimenting, chasing that holy grail of the "perfect finish." I hope this helps. I have often found that sometimes you just have to experiment as you let your experience and instincts tell you what would probably work where.

Very helpful, especially the info about your chosen practices. Thanks!

 

[Perry Higgins]

Like David said, I can only speak to what I use.

I use shellac for firming up punky wood and for a sanding sealer on porous woods. If I'm doing a display piece I will use Yorkshire grit by itself for tight-grained woods and after shellac (and sanding) on other woods. I have no experience with cellulose sealer.

Great info, thanks!

 

[Perry Higgins]

I can only speak for how and what I use.
Shellac and Cellulose sealers are both good products.
I use Shellac to firm up soft areas in wood or bark inclusions, I usually use thin CA for the bark inclusions but it depends on the piece and how it will be used. I use shellac as a sealer for poly or wipe on poly for wine stoppers, decorative pieces, and pepper grinders. I also use it before I spray lacquer sometimes if it is a large decorative piece.
Cellulose and lacquer sealer is fairly close to the same product. If you smell cellulose sealer you should get a distinctive lacquer smell. Lacquer by itself is also use a a sealer in some applications. The cellulose sealer has other additives to help close the pours of the wood and is usually thicker than lacquer sealer . If a smaller piece I will use the cellulose to seal before applying lacquer, large piece I will use shellac.
I do not used cellulose sealer with polyurethane or wipe on poly. It takes a long time for poly to dry on top of cellulose sealer and I’m not sure the poly will adhere to the cellulose as well as it will to shellac.
I’ve never used abrasive paste so cannot comment on that. I do use 0000 steel wool after using any type sealer to remove nips and smooth it out before applying a top coat.

Great information, thanks for sharing your processes and perspective.

 

[Aaron Harris]

I did see a YouTube video last week in which a turner (I can't remember which one) recommended applying sanding sealer before using CA on cracks to prevent the dreaded deep staining that is difficult to sand out, especially on the end grain where most cracks occur. I have been doing that this week with good results where I had been using shellac or spray lacquer for the same purpose. One of those things that's obvious once it's pointed out.

 

[John K Jordan]

…recommended applying sanding sealer before using CA on cracks to prevent the dreaded deep staining that is difficult to sand out, especially on the end grain where most cracks occur….

I have had success avoiding the dreaded stain by applying CA with the very fine capillary tip - give ultimate control over where the tiny drops end up.

Another CA trick Sir Lucas taught me for undetectable repairing of small defects (a spot of tearouit, cracks, etc) is wet sanding with CA glue. Put a small drop of thin CA on a strip of sandpaper (220, 320, or so) and wet sand. It picks up sawdust from the wood next to the defect, mixes in a bit of CA, then forces the mix into the defect for a seamless fix. The several times I’ve tried it’s worked wonderfully. I haven’t tried it on end grain but will if I ever see a crack there.

JKJ

 

[Bill Alston]

Is there a table or reference that can be used to answer these concerns?

This is a reference for the Chestnut brand of finishes, but may equally apply to some other manufacturers products?

 

[Aaron Harris]

I have had success avoiding the dreaded stain by applying CA with the very fine capillary tip - give ultimate control over where the tiny drops end up.

Another CA trick Sir Lucas taught me for undetectable repairing of small defects (a spot of tearouit, cracks, etc) is wet sanding with CA glue. Put a small drop of thin CA on a strip of sandpaper (220, 320, or so) and wet sand. It picks up sawdust from the wood next to the defect, mixes in a bit of CA, then forces the mix into the defect for a seamless fix. The several times I’ve tried it’s worked wonderfully. I haven’t tried it on end grain but will if I ever see a crack there.

JKJ

Thanks, John-I use the tips, too-I just need to work on a more precise, less sloppy application, especially with the thin stuff. I have never tried sanding in my CA, will give that a shot. I do sand Tite-Bond into some larger cracks, which is a tip I learned from watching Kent Weakly's excellent instructional videos. Looks a little more like the wood, and less obvious than the old coffee grounds and CA trick.

 

[John K Jordan]

I use the tips, too-I just need to work on a more precise, less sloppy application, especially with the thin stuff.

One thing I do with the very small diameter capillary tips to get an even smaller drop is squeeze the tube between my finger and thumbnail and pull the thumbnail towards and off the end. This flattens the tube a bit and allows even more control.

This is not the brand I have but they look the same:

https://www.amazon.com/Bonsicoky-Precision-Applicator-Dispensing-Dispensers/dp/B091GKQK32

BTW, I blow the last remaining bit of CA out and reuse the tips. If the end gets clogged I cut off a bit. (yes, I’m cheap)

JKJ