Sanding Tear Out

[Dave Fritz]

For some reason I find tear out after I think I'm done sanding. This is a small box elder crotch piece that was sanded to 400 grit, then wet sanded with thinned tung oil with 600 grit. The areas shown are rough to the touch and you can see tear out. My question is how would you fix this? Would spot treat it or completely re-sand the whole piece?

 

[Monty Ivy]

From what I can see in the picture, one approach would be to fill the area with CA and re-sand. This might also present an opportunity for an inlay. Powdered metal, mineral, even coffee grounds saturated with CA.

 

[Graham Dolby]

Have you tried reversing the lathe to sand these patches? I've found that the rough patches are often wood fibres bent over in the spinning direction. Reversing the lathe will let the abrasive attack the ends of those fibres.
In cases like this I sometimes apply a wood hardener, a water based urethane, and then leave it overnight. You also could use a sanding sealer but still be prepared to reverse sand.

 

[Kevin Jenness]

That looks to me like straight-up torn fibers. Pretty deep to sand out. I would go back to 80-100# with a rotary disc and try to blend in the contours. Trying to sand that much off the whole bowl will likely make it out of round because of the different sanding rates of end and side grain. Hardening the fibers and reverse turning may help but the deepest pit there needs to be ground down. I don't think filling these to match or contrast will look good, but you could try it - if you don't like it, sand it more. Remember, all turtles don't make it to the sea.

To avoid being surprised in future, use better lighting from different angles, especially after the initial sanding. Wetting the surface with alcohol can show up defects, particularly sanding scratches like the ones that show up when zooming in on your photo.

 

[Odie]

Remember, all turtles don't make it to the sea.

^^^^^ I like that!

Another thing......some turtles are more expensive than others!

-----odie-----

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Odie, I am stubborn and have spent a lot of time sanding out bowls that weren't worth the effort, just because I didn't want to give up on a flawed piece. Those were expensive turtles just figuring labor. My friend Chelsie calls it "buffing turds." Most of the time I would be better off tossing them and turning another piece. If I had spent the sanding time improving my turning skills I might scarcely need to sand at all!

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Re-sharpen te gouge and take a very thin shaving of the piece, a handheld cabinet scraper could also help with removal of some rough surfaces, sanding is not the way to go.
Using a more acute tool and keep it at a cutting angle, not a scraping one.

 

[Rusty Nesmith]

If or when I get tear out I spray a little water on it. Let it dry then sand some more. I keep doing that until it is gone. I normally sand with 120 or 180 grit.

 

[Randy Heinemann]

Shear scraping with a bowl gouge can create a smooth surface, but some of the "tearout" is very deep. Prepare to shear scrape for a bit (or maybe "sheer" scrape). The good part about shear (sheer) scraping is that the rest of the bowl will also show an improved surface even if you think it's already very smooth. At least that's one of the things it does for me. If you don't know what shear/sheer scraping is, there are videos on YouTube.

 

[Odie]

If I had spent the sanding time improving my turning skills I might scarcely need to sand at all!

^^^^^ You got that right, Kevin!

I have a theory about why so many new turners come and go so quickly......and, it has everything to do with power sanding. Many new turners (which includes me, when I was a newbie) think turning is easy.....because no matter how poorly done the tool finish is, you can always sand your way out of bad tool work. That does work, up until the point where they figure out that aggressively sanding a bowl into submission leaves a surface where any hope of finely executed details, crisp unwavering corners of intersecting planes, etc., are no longer possible. This is because the "geometric integrity" has been altered beyond acceptable limitations.

At that point, and without improving their tool work, there is no other possible progress that can be made.....and they either give up, or turn their attention to embellishments. This is not to say there isn't some mighty fine embellishment in the turning community......there certainly is, but if you look at the turning beneath those embellishments, you almost always see a very simply turned shape that is easily accessible by power sanding, or covered up by carving, burning, painting, etc, etc, etc.

Which brings me to this very obvious conclusion: The real, and very powerful benefit to improving your turning skills, is to eliminate the need for power sanding.....with the exception of the finest grits of sanding by hand after the tool work is done. (If you need the "80gt gouge", then your turning skills still need improving.....and, when your turning skills improve to a level that does eliminate the need for power sanding, it opens up doors you didn't even know were there!)

-----odie-----

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Re-sharpen te gouge and take a very thin shaving of the piece, a handheld scraper could also help with removal of some rough surfaces, sanding is not the way to go.
Using a more acute tool and keep it at a cutting angle, not a scraping one.

For sure, if there is enough thickness and the piece is close to true then another try at turning is the way to go. I was assuming that the inside was turned to finish thickness. The photo suggests that the problem area has been heavily sanded already, illustrating the difficulty of "fixing" a fault after turning.

 

[Dean Center]

Odie, I am stubborn and have spent a lot of time sanding out bowls that weren't worth the effort, just because I didn't want to give up on a flawed piece. My friend Chelsie calls it "buffing turds."

A late resident of our community made an excellent living mounting turds on wood then lacquering and applying feathers and google eyes and selling to tourists. Montana Turd Birds. You can look it up and buy one. No they were not human turds. Reportedly horse apples.

 

[Odie]

A late resident of our community made an excellent living mounting turds on wood then lacquering and applying feathers and google eyes and selling to tourists. Montana Turd Birds. You can look it up and buy one. No they were not human turds. Reportedly horse apples.

You know, Dean......I believe I've seen those at a local truck stop.

-----odie-----

 

[Kevin Jenness]

Remember, all turtles don't make it to the sea.

I borrowed the phrase from Kalia Kliban. From a Dec 2017 American Woodturner profile

As any experienced woodturnerwill attest, the better you get and the more you know, the more you notice, both in your own work as well as in the work of others. Kalia has learned to be more critical and less sentimental about the pieces that aren’t quite working. During one of my winter visits to her shop, another one of those improv moments unfolded when she unceremoniously opened up the woodstove and threw in a bowl. “Not all the baby turtles make it to the sea,” she remarked.

My firewood supply has been enhanced since I embraced that sentiment. What do other folks do with baby turtles that fail to thrive?

 

[john lucas]

Obviously try to get rid of it first. However to get rid of it after its ther there are 3 things I try. Slow the lathe down so the sandpaper doesnt skip over the tearout. Stop the lathe and sand just that area. I made some small scrapers that I use by hand like you would a cabinet scraper to get rid if really bad tearout. The photo does not show the size. They are only 2" long.

 

[Kirk Amidon]

I borrowed the phrase from Kalia Kliban. From a Dec 2017 American Woodturner profile

As any experienced woodturnerwill attest, the better you get and the more you know, the more you notice, both in your own work as well as in the work of others. Kalia has learned to be more critical and less sentimental about the pieces that aren’t quite working. During one of my winter visits to her shop, another one of those improv moments unfolded when she unceremoniously opened up the woodstove and threw in a bowl. “Not all the baby turtles make it to the sea,” she remarked.

My firewood supply has been enhanced since I embraced that sentiment. What do other folks do with baby turtles that fail to thrive?

Those non thriving projects are often great sources for trying and practicing new techniques such as beading, embellishing, or finishing without the worry of ruining something good. Designer firewood.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Might be an excellent opportunity to work on how to ID the tear out ealier, and then how to remove it. Perseverance leads to new discoveries and skill development.

ID - usually using a raking light can help. Remove any overhead light, and turn the piece and move your head. Works sometimes. Also do this as sanding begins. Wetting the surface with solvent (dna, naptha, ms - so it evaps quickly) can help. Leaving sanding dust can help - the collected dust takes on a bit different color. The more you do these close inspections the better you get, but I still miss them sometimes.

Fix - many times a very light cut with a freshly sharpened tool will do it. Sheer scraping may do it. Ellsworth’s description of how he found “reverse sheer scraping” is enlightening - it was by accident, as many discoveries are. On the OD, move the tool rim to bottom, opposite normal cutting direction. Not perfect but many times it works.

After Fix - sometimes nothing works completely, or as in maybe one is where you are - just started with finish and dont want to back up. With oil or varnish, wet sand, create a paste, and fill the small voids. Can be done with the work spinning or not. 220 to 400 gr to get enough dust - just depends on how much past is needed. Sometimes I use a squeegee for laying gel coat to press the paste in. Can require 2-3 attempts, just depends. Commonly done with flat work to fill grain pores. Once filled another wet sand is needed to clean up the residual paste.

Lots of things to experiment with!

 

[robo hippy]

Well, I see two different tear out issues. One is the knot at the rim of the bowl. For that one, I would use sawdust and CA glue, or leave it alone. The other tear out spots below I would try to shear scrape out. I believe box elder is one of those woods that tends to tear more than most other woods. A NRS would not remove them well since it is still a scraper. I prefer to shear scrape with scrapers with burnished burrs. They seem to cut better than the gouges do. Many times I see people 'shear/sheer' scraping with a gouge, but the gouge is flat on the tool rest/cutting edge is 90 degrees to the rotation. This would have the gouge working more as a NRS since there is no 'shear/sheer' angle to the cutting edge. I generally keep the shear angle at 45+ degrees. Some times 45 degrees works, some times 60 works better, it depends on the wood.

Of course, finding the tear out before you start sanding is an advantage. From one turner, "Never take a finished piece from the shop into the house on a sunny day. Sunlight causes scratches." Some times you can feel the tear out with your fingers before you sand, well, just about every time. Seeing them involves good lighting, and good glasses. I was able to see a lot more when I quit using the store bought 'reading' glasses. I use natural light spectrum lights rather than the more white LEDs.

robo hippy

 

[Dave Fritz]

Really interesting responses, reflecting each person's experience, ability and technique. Thank you, this is what I asked for.
As for me, an old arthritic fella - this turtle didn't make it. I have plenty of blanks less challenging to play with. Thanks again.

 

[Pat Cogdal]

Those non thriving projects are often great sources for trying and practicing new techniques such as beading, embellishing, or finishing without the worry of ruining something good. Designer firewood.

I agree Kirk. I saw a presentation by Jacques Vesery this summer and of the many great points he made my biggest takeaway was when he asked how many of us practice woodturning vs trying to make a completed piece every time. As a beginning/intermediate turner who still has a lot to learn I have devoted a lot more practice time with less precious wood or pieces that went off the rails and it is truly (though not surprisingly) making a difference. And yes my friends are impressed with the various shapes found in my firewood pile. LOL

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I certainly could use more practice rather than creating a satisfactory piece each time I turn. However, I found that I don't enjoy just practicing so I rather take one of my less attractive blanks and actually turn a piece that is appropriate to that blank. Sometimes the result is good and sometimes the wood isn't that great. However, I do agree that I would never turn a unique piece like a burl or heavily figured wood that requires a technique I haven't gotten good at. The reality is, though, in the end, you have to turn that piece at some point and take what comes . . . or else that wood will just sit on the shelf forever. As I age, I worry less about using unique wood for just the right project and just turning something. Each piece has its own character regardless of whether it is perfect or not. As an aside, I bought a number of perfectly clear 4/4 oak bords in 1975 and held off using them for just the right project. Well, I still had them about 20 years later because I never found the right use and didn't feel I was a good enough woodworker to use them. Finally, I just began using them in various projects. These days you can't buy boards like that anymore or they are extremely expensive and hard to find. However, every time I did use them, it always gave me satisfaction that the wood was easy to work with and didn't have all the issues you now have with avoiding knots and other imperfections. They didn't have any imperfections. So, while I save my special blanks, I know that one of these days soon I will just turn them and let the result be whatever it is.

 

[Pat Cogdal]

I certainly could use more practice rather than creating a satisfactory piece each time I turn. However, I found that I don't enjoy just practicing so I rather take one of my less attractive blanks and actually turn a piece that is appropriate to that blank. Sometimes the result is good and sometimes the wood isn't that great. However, I do agree that I would never turn a unique piece like a burl or heavily figured wood that requires a technique I haven't gotten good at. The reality is, though, in the end, you have to turn that piece at some point and take what comes . . . or else that wood will just sit on the shelf forever. As I age, I worry less about using unique wood for just the right project and just turning something. Each piece has its own character regardless of whether it is perfect or not. As an aside, I bought a number of perfectly clear 4/4 oak bords in 1975 and held off using them for just the right project. Well, I still had them about 20 years later because I never found the right use and didn't feel I was a good enough woodworker to use them. Finally, I just began using them in various projects. These days you can't buy boards like that anymore or they are extremely expensive and hard to find. However, every time I did use them, it always gave me satisfaction that the wood was easy to work with and didn't have all the issues you now have with avoiding knots and other imperfections. They didn't have any imperfections. So, while I save my special blanks, I know that one of these days soon I will just turn them and let the result be whatever it is.

I hear that. And don't get me wrong I don't practice all day. But 20 mins to an hour, often as a warmup has cumulatively been improving my skills. But as long as we are spending time at the lathe whether practicing or going for gold and using solid technique we will inevitable improve with time.

 

[Richard Coers]

You need better shop lights if you can't see the tear out. Also wiping down with mineral spirits will make the tear out pop.

 

[Dean Center]

You need better shop lights if you can't see the tear out. Also wiping down with mineral spirits will make the tear out pop.

I've got plenty of light in the shop, but when I would take my work to a skilled fellow turner for his review, he ALWAYS saw flaws in the sanding or finish that I had not seen until he pointed them out. For a long time, I subscribed to Reed's "sunlight causes scratches" theory. The more likely answer is that my friend who was quite near-sighted had much better vision than me. I suspect age related vision issues have increasingly affected my ability to see the scratches and flaws, and while extra light and contrast help, sometimes the flaws slip by. The mineral spirits, or alcohol or water, application is definitely a help in bringing them out. But I'm still going to avoid sunlight.

 

[robo hippy]

When sanding, I start at 100 grit in worst case, and 120 to 150 depending on the wood. I will spend twice the amount of time with the starting grits than I do with the grits 220 and above. Especially with the coarse grits, sand till I think I have every thing out, then sand it a bit more. Most of the time, it is the original grit that shows through because you didn't spend enough time with the next grit up. If I start with 80, then I go to 100, then 120, then 150. I never skip a grit!

robo hippy

 

[Randy Heinemann]

I was a woodworker for many years before I started turning. I learned early on the hard way that any surface imperfections must be removed at the start of sanding with the coarsest grit it takes to make the surface clean and free of any imperfections that will show up when finishing. The finer grits will only make the surface more smooth. They will not remove scratches or, in the case of turning, tearout.

 

[Odie]

I was a woodworker for many years before I started turning. I learned early on the hard way that any surface imperfections must be removed at the start of sanding with the coarsest grit it takes to make the surface clean and free of any imperfections that will show up when finishing. The finer grits will only make the surface more smooth. They will not remove scratches or, in the case of turning, tearout.

^^^^^ This is the bottom line!

All flaws in the tool finish MUST be removed with the initial sanding grit.

No exceptions!

-----odie-----