Selling Hollow Forms

[Peter Jacobson]

I am curious about the experiences folks have selling hollow forms. I've been turning for about 4 1/2 years and have sold my bowls at fine craft fairs in the area, as well as on-line. I listened to a lot of advice on line about pricing bowls and tuned my pricing based on the markets I was in, continuously increasing my average sale price. My pricing was never based on time and materials, rather what the market would bear. In the last year or so, I have focused on making hollow forms; some are vase-like but most are purely decorative explorations of shape and the beauty of the wood. I am preparing for a high end craft show this Fall, and starting to think about how to price the hollow forms. Are there rules of thumb people use? Is there a multiplier for a HF over a bowl of similar dimensions and wood type? Other factors to consider? Thanks for any thoughts on this.

 

[Richard Coers]

If you are making them on speculation now, you know exactly how much labor and cost you have in each one. That should make pricing incredibly easy. I'm a firm believer that using someone else's rule of thumb will provide you little profit, if any at all. No 2 businesses have the exact same overhead.

 

[Jaramiah Severns]

I haven’t sold a ton of work and I’ve only done one art show, so take this with a grain of salt. Rather than applying some formula, I consider two things:

1) How much do I need to charge to feel good about the sale? I still consider time and materials, but this is more of an emotional equation where I determine the price point at which selling a piece feels better than holding on to a piece. At $100, I’d rather just hang on to most pieces. For $1,000, there isn’t much in my inventory that couldn’t be bought. I look for the tipping point between those values…and then I usually add 10-20% to give myself a little room to negotiate (or cover shipping).

2) What are my peers pricing their work at? This is just a gut check to make sure I’m keeping up with (and not diluting) the market and am tethered to reality.

This is definitely not best practice if you mean to treat turning like a business, where you’d want to consider fixed / variable costs, direct / indirect costs, etc. but it’s how I like to approach it

 

[John Ames]

Start at $500

Add $25 every time someone picks it up and says
“Wow - this is SOOO light!!”

I don’t sell or make hollow forms, but I typically sell my bowls at between $50-70 pr hour it took me to make it. (And I tell my customers that’s how they are priced). But there are always exceptions for pieces that stand out in some way.

No matter what generic formula you use, I think there needs to be exceptions for pieces that are extra special or are unique in some way, or that require a specific skill set that you have created/invented that is unique to you. Pay yourself for your ingenuity.

Most people who comment on prices say “that’s actually really reasonable for something like this” or something to that effect. The only ones who recoil in horror are the “Target/Walmart/Amazon shoppers” and they want everything for $15…. Delivered.

 

[Dave Landers]

Peter,
The pricing method you use for bowls (what the market will bear) is right on for hollow forms and other art pieces. The only difference is that you can also adjust the price based on things like uniqueness, and how special it is to you.
Sometimes my wife wants to keep a piece, so I ask her how much it would take to let it go. That piece usually doesn’t go on sale, but her answer does help with other pieces.

 

[Ricc Havens]

I'm always somewhat of a believer of - price it for what you would actually pay for it if you were the buyer. It always amused me growing up that my mother would go to a garage sale or estate sale and see something she wanted and ALWAYS made a lower counter offer based on what she thought the item was worth and what she wanted to pay. Yet, when she held a garage sale she would always try to sell something higher than what she wpi;d be wiling to pay for the same item. And she would always complain about the buyers who made a lower offers. I couldn't get her to understand the concept that - if it's not selling tat her price then it was priced too high for the current market or demand. She would always respond - "but it's worth$.....". My response was always - not if someone's not buying it for that price.

I can have many hours into a piece. But what that piece will sell for in my local non-touristy midwest area of north central Indiana is way less than it would sell for in a big city or coastal tourist area.

That's just my two cents based on my experience, local economy, etc. Your experience and others experiences will differ.

Good luck

 

[Tom Albrecht]

Personally, I ask my spouse and local friends for suggestions. The other thing to do is to visit some local shops that sell wood art. Sometimes I am amazed at some of the high prices on gallery wooden art pieces.

 

[Randy Anderson]

Peter, I also shifted to hollow forms a couple of years ago as my primary turning focus. I still do bowls and such but my default view of log now is to try and get a hollow form out of it. After selling at local markets and online for a number of years now I believe pricing is mostly a market relative subjective exercise. What I can sell a 12" hollow form for at a craft show in rural TN is likely very different than what it could sell for in your neighborhood. All the other same factors impact the price - size, shape appeal, wood, finish, character features like inclusions but I think even more so for hollow forms. They're ornamental pieces with more of an artistic visual intent so can I think command a higher price than a bowl. My advice is to price higher than your gut tells you up front and test your market. I usually start with HxWx2 just to get a baseline and then adjust up from there.

 

[hockenbery]

See what’s selling in your area.
Ask club members
Look in nearby galleries

In general a small 6-8 hollow form should sell for a bit more than your 14” bowls.
A 12-14 hollow form twice the 6-8 forms.
Add for embellishment
Add for great wood

 

[Richard Coers]

I'm always somewhat of a believer of - price it for what you would actually pay for it if you were the buyer. It always amused me growing up that my mother would go to a garage sale or estate sale and see something she wanted and ALWAYS made a lower counter offer based on what she thought the item was worth and what she wanted to pay. Yet, when she held a garage sale she would always try to sell something higher than what she wpi;d be wiling to pay for the same item. And she would always complain about the buyers who made a lower offers. I couldn't get her to understand the concept that - if it's not selling tat her price then it was priced too high for the current market or demand. She would always respond - "but it's worth$.....". My response was always - not if someone's not buying it for that price.

I can have many hours into a piece. But what that piece will sell for in my local non-touristy midwest area of north central Indiana is way less than it would sell for in a big city or coastal tourist area.

That's just my two cents based on my experience, local economy, etc. Your experience and others experiences will differ.

Good luck

I learned about 40 years ago that I could never afford my work. I don't get tailor made suits, I don't drive fancy cars, and I live in a modest home. No way could I afford custom made furniture or turned wood art.

 

[Bob Brown]

See what’s selling in your area.
Ask club members
Look in nearby galleries

In general a small 6-8 hollow form should sell for a bit more than your 14” bowls.
A 12-14 hollow form twice the 6-8 forms.
Add for embellishment
Add for great wood

And don't forget to ask what the galleries are charging. Over 50% in most cases now.

 

[hockenbery]

And don't forget to ask what the galleries are charging. Over 50% in most cases now.

The gallery fee is only important if you are in that gallery.
The gallery price is the sale price for reference.
Usually the gallery contracts say you can’t sell a similar piece yourself for less than the gallery price.

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

I went with my gut for the first handful sold, then reverse engineered a formula (divided the sale prices by HxD to get a multiplier) that I now apply to all of my pieces to maintain consistently proportionate pricing across all of my pieces. I do adjust the number based on a few factors, but it gives me a starting point. I believe consistency is important, especially if you sell to collectors. Selling a similar piece later for less could devalue their purchase.

 

[Kevin Jesequel]

The gallery fee is only important if you are in that gallery.
The gallery price is the sale price for reference.
Usually the gallery contracts say you can’t sell a similar piece yourself for less than the gallery price.

If you (not you, specifically Hockenbery) are marking up your pieces to put them in a gallery, you are selling them for too little when not in a gallery. A gallery takes a commission because they are (theoretically) holding and marketing your work to find a buyer, then handling the transaction and associated fees. If you are doing that work yourself, you deserve the gallery’s cut (because you are the gallery) on your sale. Establish a retail price that is the price no matter where it sells. Again, that will reflect consistent pricing across your work.

 

[Richard Coers]

If you (not you, specifically Hockenbery) are marking up your pieces to put them in a gallery, you are selling them for too little when not in a gallery. A gallery takes a commission because they are (theoretically) holding and marketing your work to find a buyer, then handling the transaction and associated fees. If you are doing that work yourself, you deserve the gallery’s cut (because you are the gallery) on your sale. Establish a retail price that is the price no matter where it sells. Again, that will reflect consistent pricing across your work.

I agree about the theory on paper, but in my business model it could not survive if I had to charge gallery prices for everything. It's tough enough to sell a $25 Christmas ornament, but $37.50 would make it very difficult. I have to run high production numbers to sell them at $25 and make a wage. Personally, I'd rather sell 50, $25 ones instead of 10, $37.50 ones. Same goes for some hollow forms. A hundred dollar bill does a lot more for me than having a $150 vessel sitting in a Rubbermaid container for a few years. I don't want to have to have signature tools made and sold, for me to make a living as a professional turner.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

In addition to comments, the markets I sell in are not good for bowls and I rarely sell a hollowform so most of those are presents or sit in front of me now. I do raise prices on some of my best sellers for some venues but even that is not fantastic and if I could sell ornaments for 25 would be ecstatic. So a great deal of what and how much is the old retail adage "location, location, location ".

 

[Michael Anderson]

if I could sell ornaments for 25 would be ecstatic. So a

That blows my mind. Less than $25, I can’t fathom there would be any motivation to make any. But I guess if you could crank out a primarily tool-finished production run with “free” wood it wouldn’t be too bad. No way I would be making 3-piece-+ ornaments though.

 

[Brian Gustin]

That blows my mind. Less than $25, I can’t fathom there would be any motivation to make any. But I guess if you could crank out a primarily tool-finished production run with “free” wood it wouldn’t be too bad. No way I would be making 3-piece-+ ornaments though.

Yeah, like Gerald said it is all about location. I make 3-piece (or 4-piece if you count the turned perch) live edge bird house ornaments (Just have to find some good straight tree branches to prune!) Best price I have been able to get for them is $15 a pop (Gonna try $20 this coming fall crafters markets season - Again - Couldn't sell em at that last year) - If you are in it to make profits, (considering the wood was free) you won't want to be trying to sell your stuff in these local very rural markets - But then I'm not in it for the money - I enjoy the making, and I hate giving away my work & efforts for free, hence going to markets - I price as high as I can reasonably sell my items at, but it'd never in a million years be profitable as a business.

 

[hockenbery]

That blows my mind. Less than $25, I

make 3-piece (or 4-piece if you count the turned perch) live edge bird house ornaments (Just have to find some good straight tree branches to prune!) Best price I have been able to get for them is $15 a pop

Brings back memories
From about 2000-2004 my wife and I use to sell a run of cedar bird houses for $15 each. In our November art show booth.
No sanding or finish so they still had a cedar smell.
Most people bought more than one and quite a few sales were gifts for each grandchild sometimes 5 plus.




Cut 40 2” blanks
Drill 40 holes
Turn the bottoms using wooden mandrel

Multiples from same blank
Turn perches
Turn roofs drill 1” hole
Drill & insert hanger

Match roofs to bottoms and glue

My wife and I, in a half day (4-5) hours, would end up with 37-38 ornaments we seem to loose 2 or 3 bottoms.

There was of course some time spent ripping cedar into 1.5x1.5 in 3 ft lengths on the bandsaw to dry.

 

[John Tisdale]

Wow - eighteen replies (nineteen with mine) and 500-views in two days - a subject line with "Selling" stirs the pot.
Try giving your best work to your favorite local charity auction where you can attend the event.
If a SILENT AUCTION put a "bidding starts" at maybe $500 - if nobody bids, get your feelings real hurt and go back to the shop and do better. If it goes for $750 or more, a similar piece might go for twice that in a good gallery.
Keep at it - if the charity moves you to LIVE AUCTION, same process but on steroids - egos kick in and the prices gets higher. Don't be surprised when event goers take you aside to talk about your work.
And keep keeping at it - ride the recognition curve - good things happen. And I can tell you, there's no better feeling than knowing your stuff is making a contribution
Good luck

 

[Dean Center]

I went with my gut for the first handful sold, then reverse engineered a formula (divided the sale prices by HxD to get a multiplier) that I now apply to all of my pieces to maintain consistently proportionate pricing across all of my pieces. I do adjust the number based on a few factors, but it gives me a starting point. I believe consistency is important, especially if you sell to collectors. Selling a similar piece later for less could devalue their purchase.

OK, now that you're making Kevin Jesequel! pieces, you need to join the Big Dogs and add on some $ for name recognition.

 

[Leo Van Der Loo]

I have sold my turnings, always at fair prices, as I refuse to give my work away.
I tried special markets, and could barely get my gas money out of it, so stopped that right away and found a couple of galleries that were willing to sell my products for about 1/3 of my asking price, and if the pieces were gone they would pay me, no matter how that happened ( so have a contract and keep good records with pictures and have them sign it).
I still make and sign a few pieces, those here where my best sellers, they are my Birdhouses, I did get $24-- for them, inflation should make me charge more now, but ........
I would sell a lot of these, it started to become a job, so cut that back, if it is not fun anymore I will stop doing it.

 

[Peter Jacobson]

Great discussion, everybody. Thanks for the input, demonstrating the diversity of this community and the wide range of experiences and perspectives and confirming the importance of "trial and error" in pricing, and adjusting for the specifics of the market. I am fortunate that I live in a major metropolitan area that provides a fair amount of headroom to increase value and prices (but also with increased competition). I am also grateful that I don't have to feed my family from my woodturning; it's a paying hobby for me but I want to be businesslike in valuing my work (I also happily give a way to friends and family). Since I have only been turning for 4+ years, it is incredibly validating when someone buys my work, even more so when higher priced work sells. In my non-woodturning life I learned that better sales come from keeping the customer focused on value, not price, and I try to apply that principle here.

 

[Neil S]

It takes me three times longer to turn a hollow form than a bowl from a similar volume of wood, but I can only get just over twice as much for them. I do them because some pieces of wood ask to be turned into a hollow form, so I oblige... :~} But, I also do a few so that I can add a couple into every batch of pieces that go to the gallery because those are the pieces that attract the attention of the gallery clients and then having got their attention, more often than not, they then look more closely at my cheaper pieces and buy one of. those.

 

[Richard Coers]

That blows my mind. Less than $25, I can’t fathom there would be any motivation to make any. But I guess if you could crank out a primarily tool-finished production run with “free” wood it wouldn’t be too bad. No way I would be making 3-piece-+ ornaments though.

You get the motivation by selling 40-50 ornaments at between $20-$25. When I first started doing a Nature Center Holiday Show, I'd turn a bucket full of each part at one time.

 

[Isaac Litster]

Start at $500

Add $25 every time someone picks it up and says
“Wow - this is SOOO light!!”

I don’t sell or make hollow forms, but I typically sell my bowls at between $50-70 pr hour it took me to make it. (And I tell my customers that’s how they are priced). But there are always exceptions for pieces that stand out in some way.

No matter what generic formula you use, I think there needs to be exceptions for pieces that are extra special or are unique in some way, or that require a specific skill set that you have created/invented that is unique to you. Pay yourself for your ingenuity.

Most people who comment on prices say “that’s actually really reasonable for something like this” or something to that effect. The only ones who recoil in horror are the “Target/Walmart/Amazon shoppers” and they want everything for $15…. Delivered.

I sold pieces for the first time this year and without any arithmetic, my hourly wage is abysmal, after seeing this... I have a long way to go!

 

[Michael Anderson]

You get the motivation by selling 40-50 ornaments at between $20-$25. When I first started doing a Nature Center Holiday Show, I'd turn a bucket full of each part at one time.

That's a good point (as with Al's above). If you have a good system and can crank out a lot efficiently, it adds up quickly.

 

[William Rogers]

The motivation is not money for me on selling ornaments. I do it to be creative. I just price them at $20 and sell some. If I priced them at $25, I wouldn’t sell very many. Like Gerald said, Location, location, location. Now this is at a craft show. If it was an art fair, I could double the price and likely sell more. So venue plays a role also.

 

[John Vaeth]

I participated in my first craft fair last November, thinking I might reduce a closet full of inventory by selling to Christmas buyers. I was prepared with lots of lower priced ($25 - $40) ornaments, bottle openers, and bottle stops, thinking that would appeal to this audience but I also brought some higher priced artistic pieces. When I saw the fair, I was a bit discouraged because most vendors were food (e.g. wine, craft beers) or trinket vendors. There were only a handful of artists and only 3 woodturners of the 185 vendors there. Results? I sold over $2000 but only sold one bowl and I came home with almost all of my low priced items. I am sure every show is different but this particular experience showed me the value of offering unique, creative pieces.

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

John makes a good point as to surprises but I do most of my sales on 5 to 8 items. #1 is tops at almost 200 a year, A little over 50% of my sales last year was in sales of only 5 sku. Too bad I could not just pick the sellers and leave the rest at home