Sharpening question

[Michael Anderson]

Personally, I use a platform to sharpen my skew. You're going down a deep rabbit hole with skew sharpening though, much more deep than SRG. Here is the link to a relatively recent thread about sharpening skews.

FYI, yes everyone can see your response to Brian. You're all good. I can't comment on high speed grinder use for turning tools, as I've only used a slow speed. However, if you're going to spend the money on new cbn wheels, I would recommend just getting a low speed grinder as well (if it's on your price range). You could still use the high speed for reshaping, but then use the low speed for sharpening. That said, many far more experienced folks than I will likely have far better advice to give about this.

 

[Brian Gustin]

Concerning V-arm use, what are the thoughts on using the Wolverine Skew attachment for the v-arm? Does anyone use it for a straight across grind for a skew chisel?

I responded directly to Brian Gustin for my other comments, I don’t know if the group can see those.

They'll see 'em.

As far as your comment about learning freehand grinding - with a SRG , it's a no-brainer , nothing much to learn - All you do is set platform to the angle you need (to match your desired bevel angle on the SRG) and then (assuming you're right handed and platform on the left side of the grinder) you simply hold the gouge flute up and flat on the platform with your left hand/fingers (I pinch the gouge to platform using my thumb, with fingers under platform - using due care of course to not get fingers too close to the wheel!) and then slide it up until the gouge makes contact with wheel, then simply keeping it straight in and square to the wheel, rotate the gouge handle with your right hand to left and right to get an even , square grind to your gouge - the only skill you need is being able to hold the gouge straight in so things stay square to the wheel face (90 degrees to the face of grinding wheel) and then just making sure the sides of gouge stay straight and parallel to each other and cutting edge all on the same plane as the bottom of the flute - SRG is the easiest thing to platform grind of all the gouges or chisels (Other than maybe a box scraper!)

Never used the skew attachment - I also platform grind my skews (it's a little trickier and you need to be able to move both hands in tandem to slide skew flat and square to its edge angle, and getting it ground evenly on both sides) mainly because I like to introduce a slight curvature to the heel of the skew. Only thing I use the V-arm for is with the vari-grind jig to get my gouges to my preferred consistent grind.

 

[Dave Landers]

I don't aspire to become a freehand sharpener either of my hand tools or my lathe tools (I concentrate in both areas); since I won't be able to do either with enough frequency to develop the needed muscle memory and natural skill,

So sharpening things like bowl or spindle gouges on a platform takes the practice and muscle memory you describe. Personally, I could probably pick that up fairly quickly, but frankly I'm not that interested. So I use the vari-grind with my wolverine. Simple to repeat a complex shape like on a bowl gouge once you get the settings set.

However, there is very little practice or muscle memory required to platform grind a SRG or a Skew or scraper (etc). Keep the tool on the platform - that's most of the skill required. For the SRG, simply rotate (twist) the tool handle while keeping the tool on the platform and straight with the grinder. That's the motion that sticking the butt end of the tool handle in the v-arm pocket makes. But the platform angle (and thus the bevel) won't change as your tool gets shorter, and you can grind several tools without changing the platform. My 40º platform sharpens my SRG, negative rake scrapers, and something else I can't think of right now.

Just something to keep in mind.

 

[robo hippy]

I do have a couple of sharpening videos up on You Tube. I do all of my sharpening on platforms. For the skew, some like a straight across skew, and others, including me, like one that is about half straight across, and the other half is a 1/4 round profile. Only way to know for sure is to try both.... Look up Woodturner 21 for skew work, or Allen Batty.

As for CBN wheel grit, 180 will do 95% of all your sharpening needs. With the skew, it really helps to strop it to remove the burr. This makes a big difference. Buy some scrap leather from a leather place, saddle makers in particular, and at the big box store, you can buy a 'polishing' compound pretty cheap. They don't know what stropping is....

robo hippy

 

[Lewis Elliott]

I do have a couple of sharpening videos up on You Tube. I do all of my sharpening on platforms. For the skew, some like a straight across skew, and others, including me, like one that is about half straight across, and the other half is a 1/4 round profile. Only way to know for sure is to try both.... Look up Woodturner 21 for skew work, or Allen Batty.

As for CBN wheel grit, 180 will do 95% of all your sharpening needs. With the skew, it really helps to strop it to remove the burr. This makes a big difference. Buy some scrap leather from a leather place, saddle makers in particular, and at the big box store, you can buy a 'polishing' compound pretty cheap. They don't know what stropping is....

robo hippy

Thanks Robo Hippy. I'll look into that.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

Personally, I use a platform to sharpen my skew. You're going down a deep rabbit hole with skew sharpening though, much more deep than SRG. Here is the link to a relatively recent thread about sharpening skews.

FYI, yes everyone can see your response to Brian. You're all good. I can't comment on high speed grinder use for turning tools, as I've only used a slow speed. However, if you're going to spend the money on new cbn wheels, I would recommend just getting a low speed grinder as well (if it's on your price range). You could still use the high speed for reshaping, but then use the low speed for sharpening. That said, many far more experienced folks than I will likely have far better advice to give about this.

Thanks Michael, I'll check out the thread. You got my comment about muscle memory correctly, I was referring to more than just the SRG when I mentioned a lack of muscle memory, I should have included more detail. What I have experienced with woodworking is many hand oriented tasks rely on regular and consistent practice; if you don't get at if often and consistently enough your attempts to master the skill can go up and down; that is, the task has not yet become second nature to you. For example, Rob Cosman and Frank Klausz are woodworking masters of dovetails, and those that are expert masters of faceplate turning on here, have become such only through years of consistent and regular practice to develop the muscle memory to be able to do what they can do. Unfortunately for me, I don't have the 20 or 30 years of consistent practice ahead of me, so like it or not, I'm a jig kind of guy and have invested in many of them. As a beginning turner I aspire to make a nice bowl, a nice treen type vessel, and a nice spindle adorned stool that my wife will admire ☺️. My goal is to transition from carbide turning tools to traditional turning tools; stepping from the calm and safe pond of general carbide tool use on midi lathes, to the treacherous and possibly dangerous ocean of traditional tools on a full size lathe. Many questions to come, and thanks to all of have chimed in to date.

 

[Tom Gall]

I have another question. Since I will be using a 1HP high speed (3600rpm) 8" Jet grinder (already purchased); which do you think would be a better choice of grit for a CBN wheel, 180 grit or 220 grit? My understanding is that slow speed grinders allow for less aggressive metal removal for the increased time spent on the wheel; would a 220 grit CBN wheel tend to balance, somewhat, the high speed grinder's aggressive metal removal, while still reducing the time on the wheel? One thing I do plan to do is to keep the guards on the grinder after I install a 1" CBN wheel. Also, typically, how frequently do you have to return to the grinder during a turning session for a bowl being made from a pre-prepared blank? Thanks in advance for any information you can provide.

Lewis, I used a 7" (1/2hp) hi-speed grinder for 28 yrs. before buying a slow-speed grinder - no problem! I put my first #180 CBN on the hi-speed grinder 10 years ago and two years later added an #80 - no problem! The only reason I bought the second grinder (for CBN's) was so I could use the friable wheels for non HSS stuff.
Re: guards over CBN - not necessary unless you want to hook up a vacuum port for metal dust.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

Lewis, I used a 7" (1/2hp) hi-speed grinder for 28 yrs. before buying a slow-speed grinder - no problem! I put my first #180 CBN on the hi-speed grinder 10 years ago and two years later added an #80 - no problem! The only reason I bought the second grinder (for CBN's) was so I could use the friable wheels for non HSS stuff.
Re: guards over CBN - not necessary unless you want to hook up a vacuum port for metal dust.

Thanks much, its good to know that I’m not going down a path not traveled before.

 

[Doug Freeman]

Unfortunately for me, I don't have the 20 or 30 years of consistent practice ahead of me, so like it or not, I'm a jig kind of guy and have invested in many of them.

I initially made the same decision. I still use a jig for all gouges, but fairly quickly determined a jig is not needed for “flat” tools - skew, scraper, bedan, just use a platform to set the bevel angle. I use a little holder I made for 3/16” hollowing tips on a platform. These tools are pretty easy to shape/sharpen on a platform, as only one degree of freedom is available - swinging side to side, vs the more complex movements required for gouges.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

I initially made the same decision. I still use a jig for all gouges, but fairly quickly determined a jig is not needed for “flat” tools - skew, scraper, bedan, just use a platform to set the bevel angle. I use a little holder I made for 3/16” hollowing tips on a platform. These tools are pretty easy to shape/sharpen on a platform, as only one degree of freedom is available - swinging side to side, vs the more complex movements required for gouges.

Thanks for your reply. A scraper I would agree and the platform was always my choice for the scraper. The bedan could be either way for me, or maybe my 1” woodworking belt sander. In my woodworking world I don’t like hollow grinds so the bedan might get approached the way I approach an English style “pig sticker” mortise chisel. The jury is out on the skew. To me the wolverine seems like it will be easier for my beginner turning skills.

 

[Dean Center]

The skew is no more difficult to sharpen on a platform than the scraper. You just have to flip it over and do a second side. And hone the edge and heel of the bevel, which you know how to do from past woodworking.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

The skew is no more difficult to sharpen on a platform than the scraper. You just have to flip it over and do a second side. And hone the edge and heel of the bevel, which you know how to do from past woodworking.

Thanks Dean for your information. You know, I bought the Lee Valley grinding platform for my hand tool shop and it also has the plane blade attachment plate which rides in a slot on the platform so that you can get repeatable straight grinds even if your hands are shaky and your grip is lacking due to age. That's me . I am after repeatability without long years of practice, which I will never have.

I have another jig related question. Are you familiar with the Vector Grind Fixture? If so, can a 3/4" bowl gouge fit in the fixture? Their website doesn't mention any gouge size limitation, do you know what the size limitation is? Please let me know.

 

[Tom De Winter]

I have a 1/2" oval skew that doesn't set flat on the platform. I've always had trouble keeping the top and bottom angles parallel, often wasting steel in the process.

A couple weeks ago I 3d printed this fixture. The skew sets properly indexed. Now it's simple and accurate to touch up the grind.

 

[hockenbery]

Unfortunately for me, I don't have the 20 or 30 years of consistent practice ahead of me, so like it or not, I'm a jig kind of guy

sharpening jigs have done more to expand the numbers of turners than any other invention.
no one has 6 months to give to learn sharpening then start learning to turn.
everyone has 20 minute to be taught the basics of sharpening with a jig.

i started turning before their were jigs. Sharpening was self taught along with everything else
and many days self was not a good teacher.

i was lucky enough to take classes with Liam O’Neil and David Ellsworth a year apart in the mid 90s.
Both taught me how to hand sharpen their grinds. David taught me a super simple way to hand grind a spindle gouge with or without a platform.
when jigs came out I got the Ellsworth jig. I was ok hand sharpening but about 5% of the time I would mess up and then have to spend time and steel to get the grind back. Jigs just made my grinds great 100% and the tool started lasting longer.
using the Ellsworth jig on a setup grinder doesn’t take any longer than hand sharpening

I sharpen everything else without a jig. I use a platform for most tools. Spindle gouge I use David’s method.
Johannes Michelson taught me to hand sharpen his grind after I had the Ellsworth jig and I still hand sharpen a gouge I keep with that grind.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

sharpening jigs have done more to expand the numbers of turners than any other invention.
no one has 6 months to give to learn sharpening then start learning to turn.
everyone has 20 minute to be taught the basics of sharpening with a jig.

i started turning before their were jigs. Sharpening was self taught along with everything else
and many days self was not a good teacher.

i was lucky enough to take classes with Liam O’Neil and David Ellsworth a year apart in the mid 90s.
Both taught me how to hand sharpen their grinds. David taught me a super simple way to hand grind a spindle gouge with or without a platform.
when jigs came out I got the Ellsworth jig. I was ok hand sharpening but about 5% of the time I would mess up and then have to spend time and steel to get the grind back. Jigs just made my grinds great 100% and the tool started lasting longer.
using the Ellsworth jig on a setup grinder doesn’t take any longer than hand sharpening

I sharpen everything else without a jig. I use a platform for most tools. Spindle gouge I use David’s method.
Johannes Michelson taught me to hand sharpen his grind after I had the Ellsworth jig and I still hand sharpen a gouge I keep with that grind.

You have quite an impressive turning background. Thanks for the insight. Truly, jigs have greatly opened up both turning and pure hand tool woodworking (nearly zero reliance on any power tools) to an entire generation of new faceplate turners snd hand tool woodworkers. Without the availability of good jigs I certainly would have stuck exclusively with the Norm Abram nearly 100% power tool approach with only spindle turning on the lathe using carbide turning tools exclusively. Thank for your reply.

 

[Dave Bunge]

David (Ellsworth) taught me a super simple way to hand grind a spindle gouge with or without a platform.......Spindle gouge I use David’s method.

I'll bite. Could you share David's method of hand sharpening spindle gouges?

 

[Doug Freeman]

In my woodworking world I don’t like hollow grinds

Its interesting how people can arrive at opposite conclusions - I prefer hollow grinds on flat work and turning tools (not intended to start a debate)

 

[hockenbery]

I'll bite. Could you share David's method of hand sharpening spindle gouges?

the trick for me is holding the end of the gouge handle with the thumb and finger tips with arm held against the side
place the bevel on the wheel then lift the handle until you see sparks breaking over the edge
turn the body slightly and rotate the tool clockwise to sharpen the right side
turn back to square
turn the body slightly and rotate the tool counter clockwise to sharpen the left side.
as the tool is moving up the wheel I want to see sparks breaking over the edge.
this put a micro bevel on the edge.

after 4-5 sharpenings the bevel starts to get convex
I take the convex off by putting the heel of the bevel on the wheel and rolling the tool back and forth as I bring it down the wheel to the tip. I repeat this 2-3 times. Then sharpen the edge as above.
with this process I get a pretty flat bevel.
you can see the sharpening in this gif

its a lot like sharpening with the handle in the woulverine pocket. The finger tips are the pocket.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

Its interesting how people can arrive at opposite conclusions - I prefer hollow grinds on flat work and turning tools (not intended to start a debate)

Just to clarify my statement that you reference above, I’m referring to hand tool woodworking, not any tools sharpened using an 8” grinding wheel, which will of course always be hollow ground. As you know, there is a specific intent for hollow grinding hand tool plane blades and chisels, a discussion of which is for a different forum not this one.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

sharpening jigs have done more to expand the numbers of turners than any other invention.
no one has 6 months to give to learn sharpening then start learning to turn.
everyone has 20 minute to be taught the basics of sharpening with a jig.

i started turning before their were jigs. Sharpening was self taught along with everything else
and many days self was not a good teacher.

i was lucky enough to take classes with Liam O’Neil and David Ellsworth a year apart in the mid 90s.
Both taught me how to hand sharpen their grinds. David taught me a super simple way to hand grind a spindle gouge with or without a platform.
when jigs came out I got the Ellsworth jig. I was ok hand sharpening but about 5% of the time I would mess up and then have to spend time and steel to get the grind back. Jigs just made my grinds great 100% and the tool started lasting longer.
using the Ellsworth jig on a setup grinder doesn’t take any longer than hand sharpening

I sharpen everything else without a jig. I use a platform for most tools. Spindle gouge I use David’s method.
Johannes Michelson taught me to hand sharpen his grind after I had the Ellsworth jig and I still hand sharpen a gouge I keep with that grind.

Wow!!

 

[hockenbery]

not any tools sharpened using an 8” grinding wheel, which will of course always be hollow ground.

Partly true - holding steel against a Wheel and rolling it produces a hollow ground bevel.


hand grinding on an 8” wheel can produce a flat bevel, convex bevel, or cocave(hollow ground) bevel.

this method produces flat or convex

most jigs produce hollow ground Bevels.
micro bevels remove most of the hollow ground effect.
honing essentially creates a micro bevel

at least one jig produces something close to a convex bevel

 

[Lewis Elliott]

Thank you for your information. The hollow grind condition that I was referring to relates to my hand tool shop experience, not the turning world to which I am new.

Many hand tool woodworkers who free hand sharpen their plane blades and chisels start by grinding on a platform to produce a concave surface, hollow grind, just behind the cutting edge; this aids them in creating the honed working bevel that meets the wood. This very narrow “micro-bevel” is all that touches the wood and allows very quick honing on the sharpening stones. When the micro bevel grows too large for quick honing then it is back to the platform to re-create the hollow grind. The initial grind you get from the round grinding wheel will always be hollow.

Hand tool woodworkers like myself, who don’t have the muscle memory skill for freehand sharpening our hand tool plane blades and chisels always use a jig and always get a flat surface without the need for the hollow grind approach, which then benefits us by saving metal. Some master woodworkers like Frank Klouze (spelling) don’t need to use a hollow grind, they can perform the entire process in seconds free hand.

It’s your added skill as a master turner, which is remarkable to a beginner like me, which allows you to re-shape the initial hollow grind into the finished shape you desire.

I apologize for the windedness of my response but I wanted to explain my earlier comment. When a hand tool woodworker visualizes a hollow grind, it’s the initial result you always get from the round grinding wheel and it is employed to make the next quasi free hand step easier.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

Partly true - holding steel against a Wheel and rolling it produces a hollow ground bevel.


hand grinding on an 8” wheel can produce a flat bevel, convex bevel, or cocave(hollow ground) bevel.

this method produces flat or convex
View attachment 51970
most jigs produce hollow ground Bevels.
micro bevels remove most of the hollow ground effect.
honing essentially creates a micro bevel

at least one jig produces something close to a convex bevel

Amazing skill to me, and far above my beginner turner skills. If I was a younger man with more time to devote to my turning it could be a dream of mine.

 

[hockenbery]

Amazing skill to me, and far above my beginner turner skills. If I was a younger man with more time to devote to my turning it could be a dream of mine.

Something I learned in a david Ellsworth class in the pre-jig era.
with jigs you don’t need these skills.
more time to give to turning the perfect curve.

 

[robo hippy]

With my flat work tools, I don't jig up to put the secondary bevel on them. That is pretty simple. In time, I will be able to freehand them. Maybe another 5 or 10 years.... I do grind most of the primary bevels off of my lathe tools. Just a habit I picked up years ago.

robo hippy

 

[Doug Freeman]

Hand tool woodworkers like myself, who don’t have the muscle memory skill for freehand sharpening our hand tool plane blades and chisels always use a jig and always get a flat surface without the need for the hollow grind approach, which then benefits us by saving metal. Some master woodworkers like Frank Klouze (spelling) don’t need to use a hollow grind, they can perform the entire process in seconds free hand

For flat work tools, I use a hollow grind off a wheel for the primary bevel, then shop made jigs to create microbevels vs freehand. While plane irons and chisels can be freehanded and get a usable edge, it is not going to be as good an edge as produced with a jig. I spent quite a bit of time testing the methods when I started flat ww. Not sure how you figure a flat bevel saves metal vs a hollow grind. While there is metal removed in the hollow, it is irrelevant material - it does not reduce the usable length of the tool. My flatwork tools degrade at the edge, they dont fail at the hollow grind. Some argue that a flat bevel is stronger - true in theory, not in actual application in my tests.

 

[Lewis Elliott]

Doug & Robo,
I wasn't trying to pull the forum setting into a none aligned area like hand tool woodworking, I was just attempting to clarify my earlier comments. But with all due respect, to address your questions/comments, this is what I do: 1) I reestablish my primary bevels on all of my plane blades and chisels using a Veritas Power Sharpening System, thereby giving me a perfectly flat initial surface very quickly and with minimal precious steel lose; 2) I then use a jig to establish a slight micro bevel by elevating the blade at a slight angle above the primary bevel and go to my shapton stones; 3) I then raise the angle a slight bit more in my jig to attain the secondary micro bevel on my shapton stones. This method is repeatable and highly precise. When the micro bevels get too big making the honing process take too long I go back to the Power Sharpener to reestablish the primary bevel. Yes, expert hand sharpening is much faster, but takes years of consistent practice to make it precise, repeatable, and second nature to the user.

When you hollow grind on a grinding wheel you loose the metal in the concave area. That is metal that the method I described retains. Another problem with quasi or full freehand sharpening is that the new plane blade metals are extremely hard making hand sharpening much more arduous, and replacement blades are extremely expensive. That is why some old-school freehand sharpeners tell you that they stick with the original carbon steel blades of the antique tools; it's because the metal is much softer and therefore much easier to sharpen freehand. I use Hock replacement blades in my antique planes and Lie Nielsen tools for new, and don't want any avoidable metal lose in my tools.

Yep, you are right, you end up trading money for time on task!

 

[Doug Freeman]

These discussions are interesting even tho down a non turning rabbit trail.

@Lewis Elliott I do the same as you described (multiple microbevels by jig), but use a wheel for the primary bevel just because that’s what I have.

When you hollow grind on a grinding wheel you loose the metal in the concave area. That is metal that the method I described retains.

Please elaborate on the supposed benefit. FYI I’ve done the engineering stress analysis (I are one), so I know the theory. Have you used both (hollow grind and flat) in the same plane on the same piece of wood? Any difference?

 

[Lewis Elliott]

I never did such a test, however, I have in the past hollow ground my in-expense carbon steel carpentry chisels. Just because I have my portable 6” Baldor grinder handy and I was not in my hand tool shop. One challenge is how much flat surface you leave after you hollow grind to leave enough room at the business end for repeat first and second micro bevels before you need to regrind. The flat method to get back to a flat primary bevel can give longer time frames between needing to re-establish the primary bevel by definition. To me that and saving precious metal are my reasons.

 

[robo hippy]

Maybe it is like how some want a flat grind on their skew chisels, and some want the hollow grind, and some like the convex grind. My plane irons are in need of a touch up...... Maybe some day I will get the diamond wheel set up on my Tormek, and try it out.... "All of God's children are different, and some of us are more different than the others."

robo hippy