Sharpening Thompson tools

[cwearing]

Would it be acceptable to vary the prescribed sharpening technique as follows:

Using the wolverine vari-grind attachment set to 23 degrees and use a tool protrusion of 2 inches. Then use The Raptor set up tool for constant bevel angles. Should result in more constant bevel angles.

 

[Bill Boehme]

If it's acceptable to you then it is acceptable.

Doug is more than a little arrogant about his favorite grind. It's OK, but it isn't my favorite grind so I regrind my Thompson gouges to suit myself and not him. I have about five different grinds on my bowl gouges with different nose angles and wing shapes.

 

[Hu Lowery]

protrusion

Would it be acceptable to vary the prescribed sharpening technique as follows:

Using the wolverine vari-grind attachment set to 23 degrees and use a tool protrusion of 2 inches. Then use The Raptor set up tool for constant bevel angles. Should result in more constant bevel angles.

Been awhile since I have played with protrusion so I may have forgotten what it did but it did matter. Seems like it affected wing angle and thickness. The longer the protrusion the sharper the wing angle I believe. I ended up with very thin wings.

Protrusion, arm angle on a varigrind or similar, and the distance the arm is out on the base all work together. When you change one, it affects the others. I think I had went with Johannes Michelsen's protrusion which was pretty long on all of my grinds and found it caused some issues with other grinds. Two inches is kind of in the middle and should work decent for all grinds I think. I don't remember one from the other at the moment but I have seen protrusion recommendations from 1-3/4 to 2-3/8 I believe.

Hu

 

[Odie]

Would it be acceptable to vary the prescribed sharpening technique as follows:

Using the wolverine vari-grind attachment set to 23 degrees and use a tool protrusion of 2 inches. Then use The Raptor set up tool for constant bevel angles. Should result in more constant bevel angles.

cwearing.......

It all depends on you, your technique, and how you apply the edge to wood. A sharp edge will cut well, no matter what the shape of the steel behind it behind is......it all depends on how, and who is applying that edge to the wood.

My way of thinking about it, is to give it a try. If it works for you, it may, or may not work for others, but results are the only thing that counts in making that judgment. If it produces a cut you are satisfied with, then it makes no difference what someone else thinks about your grind......go with it!

edit: There are so many different grinds and ways to apply the edge to wood, that the only reasonable conclusion to make, is that what works for one turner, may, or may not work as well for another. A big part of that conclusion is the person behind the tool may have an entirely different way of using it.

k

 

[hockenbery]

Would it be acceptable to vary the prescribed sharpening technique as follows: Using the wolverine vari-grind attachment set to 23 degrees and use a tool protrusion of 2 inches. Then use The Raptor set up tool for constant bevel angles. Should result in more constant bevel angles.

Quite a few people use a 2" protrusion with the vairgrind.

The angle you set on the vari-grind and pocket distance from the wheel work together to determine the front bevel angle and the wing profile.
The raptor will sets the pocket distance.

Read Kirk DeHeer's article in the AAW journal. He explains it real well.

I like a front bevel angle of about 30 degrees on a spindle gouge
60 degrees on a bowl gouge.

Al

 

[Gerald Lawrence]

I had been using a 2 inch protrusion until last year. Did not get the results I thought I should. Last year I bought a Thompson 5/8 bowl gouge and switched to his setting and 1 3/4 and it was like night and day. Cannot say which it was but the combination works great.

 

[bonsaipeter]

Quite a few people use a 2" protrusion with the vairgrind.

The angle you set on the vari-grind and pocket distance from the wheel work together to determine the front bevel angle and the wing profile.
The raptor will sets the pocket distance.

Read Kirk DeHeer's article in the AAW journal. He explains it real well.

I like a front bevel angle of about 30 degrees on a spindle gouge
60 degrees on a bowl gouge.

Al

Hi Al:
You refer to an article by Kirk DeHeer in the AAW journal as giving a good explanation of the effects on the grind by setting the various parameters of the Vari-Grind and pocket distance from the grinding wheel. I searched the AAW Journal archives and could not find anything by Kirk DeHeer. Would you please give me the exact reference such as the AAW Journal No. or year, Issue No., and page(s). I would very much like to read this article.

Thanks, Peter Toch

 

[Bill Blasic]

If it's acceptable to you then it is acceptable.

Doug is more than a little arrogant about his favorite grind. It's OK, but it isn't my favorite grind so I regrind my Thompson gouges to suit myself and not him. I have about five different grinds on my bowl gouges with different nose angles and wing shapes.

Arrogant? Doug sharpens more tools in a week than you will sharpen in your life. It is an easily reproduced grind that any newbie can reproduce using the Wolverine system and the flyer that he puts in each bag. And by no means is it his favorite grind. You know what arrogance is? It is thinking that everything you say is important and true!

 

[hockenbery]

Hi Al: You refer to an article by Kirk DeHeer in the AAW journal as giving a good explanation of the effects on the grind by setting the various parameters of the Vari-Grind and pocket distance from the grinding wheel. I searched the AAW Journal archives and could not find anything by Kirk DeHeer. Would you please give me the exact reference such as the AAW Journal No. or year, Issue No., and page(s). I would very much like to read this article. Thanks, Peter Toch

Below is what I found searching for "DeHeer"
Sometimes it is difficult to find things in the index.
I now I have had some difficulty finding some articles.


Degassing, vacuum, for epoxy resins, 20.1:18

DeHeer, Kirk
"Sharpening Demystified," 21.4:32–34
Sharpening Demystified (DVD), 25.5:21

De La Paz, Carmen, as symposium demonstrator, 27.2:7

Al

 

[dbonertz]

Arrogant? Doug sharpens more tools in a week than you will sharpen in your life. It is an easily reproduced grind that any newbie can reproduce using the Wolverine system and the flyer that he puts in each bag. And by no means is it his favorite grind. You know what arrogance is? It is thinking that everything you say is important and true!

Where is that like button.

 

[john lucas]

consitency is the key here, not what setting you use. Pick a distance, whether it's 2" or shorter but rig up a way to accuratly set up whatever jig you hare using. As mentioned before the distance from the tip changes a couple of things and will work better for some grinds than others. I used to worry about when the tool gets short that the longer distance would reduce the life of the tool when using the Wolverine jig. But in reality it only changes it by 1/4" or so depending on what length you extend the tool. The grind Doug sends with his tools is just a starting suggestion and is very close if not exactly what comes in the box with the Wolverine. Most serious turners modify thier tools to fit thier style of turning better. For most beginners I say just pick one and stick with it until you really understand how and why you need to change the shape.

 

[dbonertz]

I agree with John and Al. The extension doesn't matter that much. I extend it in the varigrind 2 inches with my 3/4inch gouges. I do that primarily because I use the 1 1/2 inch wide cbn wheels. I put about a 1 1/2 inch wing on the left wing of those gouges and the varigrind jig clears the wheel easier. My finishing tools I use a 1 3/4 extension. Way to much importance put on tool grinds. Find what your comfortable with like Odie said.

 

[Odie]

For most beginners I say just pick one and stick with it until you really understand how and why you need to change the shape.

This one-liner from John Lucas really did resonate with me. It is the reason why individual effort can sometimes be more important than teaching can be......progress is totally up to YOU. In time you'll know what to modify, and you'll know exactly why you should do it.....that's the real key to success here!.......

This has a lot to do with my past comments about "un-learning" things you may have been taught by others.

Before some of you get all excited about this......I'll try to make it clear. Instruction can be good, but not all of us can benefit by it equally, and not every teacher is the best for every new turner.

If it wasn't for my teachers......I wouldn't be here, or have the benefit of the three R's at all!

Regardless, there are some great self-taught turners, artists, writers, you name it......who wouldn't be anywhere near what they've become, if it wasn't for some self-motivation, desire, and a belief in themselves......that ultimately drove them to learn "outside of the box".

ko

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

The simple answer to your question is no, it will not significantly effect the result, provided (1) that you adjust the V-arm to obtain the desired bevel angle, and (2) that the length of the wings is no larger than approximately the diameter of the gouge.

Having reviewed several books and videos for the Woodturner that dealt with the use of the Oneway Wolverine jig or various work-alikes, I have had occasion to dig into the geometry of these devices. Here are some of the fundamental results that I have found.

1. Within the ranges of adjustment available, any change in the tool protrusion can be exactly compensated for by a coordinated change in Varigrind arm angle and V-arm position.

2. As a practical matter, moderate changes in tool protrusion can be satisfactorily compensated by adjusting only the V-arm to achieve the desired bevel angle. The minor change in effective arm angle will be insignificant. (To be even more practical, don’t bother to readjust the V-arm. Who cares if the bevel angle changes from 40 degrees to 42 degrees as long as it is consistent?)

3. If wing length is small, say one tool diameter or less, the arm angle value has very little effect on the profile that is obtained. Ray Thompson recommends an arm angle of about 40 degrees for spindle and bowl gouges. Kirk DeHeers recommends an arm angle of 23 degrees for spindle and bowl gouges. Glenn Lucas recommends an arm angle of about 33 degrees for spindle and bowl gouges. In all of these cases, the wing length being considered is no more than the gouge diameter. The reason that all of these choices work is that if the wing length is kept small, then the jig only needs to be rocked from side to side through a modest angle (perhaps +/- 45 degrees) during sharpening. For this small rocking angle, a wide range of arm angle settings yield almost identical sharpening profiles. However, if one wants longer wings, say on a long sidegrind bowl gouge, the situation is different. In this case, the jig must be rocked over a much larger range—up to +/- 90 degrees while sharpening. At the extremes of these wider swings, the sharpening profiles for say a 40 degree versus a 23 degree arm angle will be quite different. Specifically, if the arm angle is too small for the attempted wing length, the outer portion of the wing will round over and become blunt. An arm angle of 40 degrees works well for even for very long wings, while an arm angle of 23 degrees does not.

 

[Bill Boehme]

I agree with Dennis about the Varigrind angle not being as significant as tool protrusion and Wolverine arm position and would like to add my personal rule of thumb that helps simplify adjusting the profile of a gouge: tool protrusion controls the wing shape and the V arm controls the nose angle.

Of course, these adjustments interact so some incremental fine tuning might be needed if going for a very specific profile.

 

[Doug Thompson]

Would it be acceptable to vary the prescribed sharpening technique as follows:

Using the wolverine vari-grind attachment set to 23 degrees and use a tool protrusion of 2 inches. Then use The Raptor set up tool for constant bevel angles. Should result in more constant bevel angles.

Kirk DeHeer is a very good woodturner, teacher and he is also a friend... I also sell him bowl gouges... U shape bowl gouges. This grind works great on a U shape bowl gouge but use caution if you want to put it on a V shape bowl gouge. When you start changing grinds and the process watch out... basic grinds always work look at Bill Grumbine's basic video one bowl gouge one bowl. If you keep a bowl gouge in your hands long enough you will know how to turn a bowl beginning to end with one bowl gouge. If you look at all the pro's they use one or two grinds which they learned to use. When I see a post that you need 4 or 5 gouges to turn a bowl they don't know how to turn a bowl with one gouge. I'm not a little arrogant buy one bowl gouge... it's simple and learn how to use it but if you want to purchase another take your wife out to dinner... life is more important

 

[john lucas]

I have one gouge that I grind with a very long wing angle, about an inch on a 3/8" U shaped bowl gouge of unknown brand. I came up with this grind for a pull cut with a very steep angle for problem woods on my hand mirrors. This particular gouge is ground deep with the sides being fairly thin. Because of the shape of the flute and the long wings my side grind angles are something like 20 or 25 degrees. Couple that with the steep angle of a pull cut and you can get really clean cuts. It takes a lot of skill to control the cut to get a really smooth arc because you twist the handle for this instead of guiding the bevel with the end of the handle like you do in a pull cut. I believe I still use the same 1 3/4" protrusion mentioned earlier but since that gouge and my grinder are packed in the storage container I can't check that for you.

 

[hockenbery]

I agree with Doug on the one bowl gouge.
I think the average turner needs two gouges.
With an Ellsworth ground bowl gouge and a 3/8 spindle gouge I can turn any outside shape.

On bowls I find the spindle gouge is the go to tool for cutting the dovetail on the chuck tenon and for cutting the nub off the foot when reverse turning. Also the tool for turning a bead on the outside and working a decorative foot.

The Ellsworth grind can do all the other cuts on a bowl and leave a smooth surface.

Using the Ellsworth grind is cheating since it is the Swiss Army knife of gouges
The nose is 60 degrees, the leading edge of the wing is 45 degrees the mid wing is 25-30 degrees and the nose with the heel ground off easily cuts to the bottom center of bowls.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

I agree with Doug on the one bowl gouge.
I think the average turner needs two gouges.
With an Ellsworth ground bowl gouge and a 3/8 spindle gouge I can turn any outside shape.

On bowls I find the spindle gouge is the go to tool for cutting the dovetail on the chuck tenon and for cutting the nub off the foot when reverse turning. Also the tool for turning a bead on the outside and working a decorative foot.

The Ellsworth grind can do all the other cuts on a bowl and leave a smooth surface.

Using the Ellsworth grind is cheating since it is the Swiss Army knife of gouges
The nose is 60 degrees, the leading edge of the wing is 45 degrees the mid wing is 25-30 degrees and the nose with the heel ground off easily cuts to the bottom center of bowls.

Al,

We below average turners need all the help we can get!

I have some of Doug's humongous gouges, parting tool and detail gouge. I use my Ellsworth PM for nearly everything, though, except when working on the smaller stuff.

Speaking of which, since the original topic was sharpening Thompson tools, how do I put an Ellsworth grind on my 3/4" Thompson gouge? I have a VariGrind setup and 8" CBN wheel. I've done quite a bit of searching and really can't find anything on this. I realize this may sound crazy but I like the way that grind works for roughing and the Thompson tool is a beast; I'd like to use it on a few very large turnings soon.

Thanks!

 

[john lucas]

Without actually grinding simply lay the tool on the grinding wheel in the jig and change things. One thing at a time. for example, change the Wolverine jig rotating arm just a little bit at a time. Re adjust the nose angle using the V arm and lock it down. Now rotate the tool slowly with the grinder off and see what it does. You should be able to see what would happen to the side grinds by changing this. Compare the wing grind of the Ellsworth to the possible grind on the Thompson. You may not ever get it exactly the same because the flute shape of the Ellsworth is different than the Thompson I believe. Haven't had an Ellworth in my hand for a while but seem to remember that's how it worked. Making small adjustments and playing you should be able to get pretty close to his grind.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Speaking of which, since the original topic was sharpening Thompson tools, how do I put an Ellsworth grind on my 3/4" Thompson gouge? I have a VariGrind setup and 8" CBN wheel. I've done quite a bit of searching and really can't find anything on this. I realize this may sound crazy but I like the way that grind works for roughing and the Thompson tool is a beast; I'd like to use it on a few very large turnings soon.

Thanks!

There are several ways:

• The easiest and most expensive is to get Johannes Michelsen's jig for putting his grind on a gouge. He says to not use the center hole when putting his grind on a gouge, but the jig has precisely the same shape as the Ellsworth jig -- same arm angle and length. Set the protrusion to two inches and then set the base extension from the grinder to get a nose angle of approximately sixty degrees with the arm of the jig in the center hole of the base. And that's it.
• You can set the arm of the Varigrind to 45 degrees and set the Wolverine to get a sixty degree nose angle on the gouge. The arm length isn't exactly the same as the Ellsworth jig but it's close enough to make a credible copy.

Beyond that, you can use your ingenuity to make a jig or modify an existing jig.

While a beginner might feel the need for several bowl gouges with different grinds, the converse ... having a number of gouges with different grinds implies nothing about ones skill level. Some of us are tool junkies, although I'll never admit that even though I have Don Geoger's T-shirt that says, "I am just one tool away from greatness". There are some gouges that come in handy for certain tasks like a bottom feeder for very deep vessels or one with very steep wings for shear slicing. Having a number of gouges can be very handy when turning green wood very thin. Instead of spending precious time sharpening, I grab a sharp gouge and keep on trucking. (This is very significant for me since out of necessity, I turn on the driveway and the grinder is in my shop which is about fifty feet away. If my very tiny shop were
larger,I would very happily put my lathe in the shop.). I actually have two 3/4" bowl gouges although one would more than suffice. One is a Henry Taylor Kryo that I have use for several years. It is a wonderful tool and really does hold an edge for a long time. Recently I got a Thompson 3/4"bowl gouge because I had a gift certificate at Wood World. I haven't had an opportunity to use it yet other than just playing around.

 

[Steve Worcester]

....
Using the Ellsworth grind is cheating since it is the Swiss Army knife of gouges
The nose is 60 degrees, the leading edge of the wing is 45 degrees the mid wing is 25-30 degrees and the nose with the heel ground off easily cuts to the bottom center of bowls.

I don't think there is a cheating technique unless you are using CNC without telling us you are .

I prefer "versatile".

Although in reading this, I hadn't thought about the stickout length in relationship to wing angle and will have to start experimenting (Dang you guys! I have always used 2")

 

[Steve Worcester]

...Speaking of which, since the original topic was sharpening Thompson tools, how do I put an Ellsworth grind on my 3/4" Thompson gouge? I have a VariGrind setup and 8" CBN wheel....

If it will fit in your Varigrind it is the same as any other gouge. It "used to be" the standard Varigrind wouldn't fit a gouge that big and I had to buy the huge version.

 

[Dennis J Gooding]

Al,

We below average turners need all the help we can get!

I have some of Doug's humongous gouges, parting tool and detail gouge. I use my Ellsworth PM for nearly everything, though, except when working on the smaller stuff.

Speaking of which, since the original topic was sharpening Thompson tools, how do I put an Ellsworth grind on my 3/4" Thompson gouge? I have a VariGrind setup and 8" CBN wheel. I've done quite a bit of searching and really can't find anything on this. I realize this may sound crazy but I like the way that grind works for roughing and the Thompson tool is a beast; I'd like to use it on a few very large turnings soon.

Thanks!

Mark, you do not say which flute profile you have (V or U). If it is a U profile, you may not be able to get a satisfactory long sidegrind using jigs. You might be interested in Glenn Lucas's new video on sharpening. (My review of it appears in the current issue of the AAW Woodturner.) Glenn has an interesting discussion of the effect of flute profile on sharpening. Among other interesting results, he points out that it is very difficult to get a satisfactory sidegrind wing shape on a U-profile bowl gouge.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Without actually grinding simply lay the tool on the grinding wheel in the jig and change things. One thing at a time. for example, change the Wolverine jig rotating arm just a little bit at a time. Re adjust the nose angle using the V arm and lock it down. Now rotate the tool slowly with the grinder off and see what it does. You should be able to see what would happen to the side grinds by changing this. Compare the wing grind of the Ellsworth to the possible grind on the Thompson. You may not ever get it exactly the same because the flute shape of the Ellsworth is different than the Thompson I believe. Haven't had an Ellworth in my hand for a while but seem to remember that's how it worked. Making small adjustments and playing you should be able to get pretty close to his grind.

Thanks John, I'll try that. Close is probably good enough.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

There are several ways:

• The easiest and most expensive is to get Johannes Michelsen's jig for putting his grind on a gouge. He says to not use the center hole when putting his grind on a gouge, but the jig has precisely the same shape as the Ellsworth jig -- same arm angle and length. Set the protrusion to two inches and then set the base extension from the grinder to get a nose angle of approximately sixty degrees with the arm of the jig in the center hole of the base. And that's it.
• You can set the arm of the Varigrind to 45 degrees and set the Wolverine to get a sixty degree nose angle on the gouge. The arm length isn't exactly the same as the Ellsworth jig but it's close enough to make a credible copy.

Beyond that, you can use your ingenuity to make a jig or modify an existing jig.

While a beginner might feel the need for several bowl gouges with different grinds, the converse ... having a number of gouges with different grinds implies nothing about ones skill level. Some of us are tool junkies, although I'll never admit that even though I have Don Geoger's T-shirt that says, "I am just one tool away from greatness". There are some gouges that come in handy for certain tasks like a bottom feeder for very deep vessels or one with very steep wings for shear slicing. Having a number of gouges can be very handy when turning green wood very thin. Instead of spending precious time sharpening, I grab a sharp gouge and keep on trucking. (This is very significant for me since out of necessity, I turn on the driveway and the grinder is in my shop which is about fifty feet away. If my very tiny shop were
larger,I would very happily put my lathe in the shop.). I actually have two 3/4" bowl gouges although one would more than suffice. One is a Henry Taylor Kryo that I have use for several years. It is a wonderful tool and really does hold an edge for a long time. Recently I got a Thompson 3/4"bowl gouge because I had a gift certificate at Wood World. I haven't had an opportunity to use it yet other than just playing around.

Between you and Johns advice I may have a plan.

And yes, my name is Mark and I am a tool junkie. Nowhere close to being in recovery.

If I had the space and funds, I'd have a radial arm saw just for dado cuts on plywood. And another for 23/32", and a three head shaper for doors, and.........

Well, then there's all the turning toys out there.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark, you do not say which flute profile you have (V or U). If it is a U profile, you may not be able to get a satisfactory long sidegrind using jigs. You might be interested in Glenn Lucas's new video on sharpening. (My review of it appears in the current issue of the AAW Woodturner.) Glenn has an interesting discussion of the effect of flute profile on sharpening. Among other interesting results, he points out that it is very difficult to get a satisfactory sidegrind wing shape on a U-profile bowl gouge.

Dennis, it's the V. I actually read and enjoyed your review yesterday when the magazine arrived. It piqued my interest partly because I've read a lot here on the Tormek and some on the Sorby belt system. I've been curious and for the price of a video, well, money well spent.

I can see why a U would present problems. Not much metal left on the tip of the wings if I'm imagining the geometry right (not at home to look-keeping grandchildren at the moment).

 

[Mark Hepburn]

If it will fit in your Varigrind it is the same as any other gouge. It "used to be" the standard Varigrind wouldn't fit a gouge that big and I had to buy the huge version.

Steve,

I'm going back to the shop tonight and giving it a try. That's three votes on the Vari grind. But I'm pretty sure that I'm going to get the Glenn Lucas video Dennis suggests. Craft supplies has it and I'm sure Amazon must also.

 

[hockenbery]

Al, We below average turners need all the help we can get! I have some of Doug's humongous gouges, parting tool and detail gouge. I use my Ellsworth PM for nearly everything, though, except when working on the smaller stuff. Speaking of which, since the original topic was sharpening Thompson tools, how do I put an Ellsworth grind on my 3/4" Thompson gouge? I have a VariGrind setup and 8" CBN wheel. I've done quite a bit of searching and really can't find anything on this. I realize this may sound crazy but I like the way that grind works for roughing and the Thompson tool is a beast; I'd like to use it on a few very large turnings soon. Thanks!

We all need all the help we can get regardless of skill level perceived or actual.

I use the Geiger vertical solution. It replaces the pocket and is set to the vertical height to use with the Ellsworth Jig.
The new version has some built in stops to give a micro bevel and to set it to a spindle gouge position.
http://m.geigerssolutions.com/Vertical-Solution-Pro-Sharp-4X.html

I have a couple of 3/4" gouges but haven't used them in years.
The veri- grind can be set to to replicate the Ellsworth grind but the pocket has to be 4" below the center of the wheel and 7" form the front of the wheel.
The veri-grind with the verticle solution works well.
Don has a simple set-up for the very-grind but I can't find it. He puts the veri-grind on a bench and sets the angle so the point that goes in the pocket is a certain distance off the bench.

I also have a block of wood that I machined to raise the pocket height. It fits in the woulverine pocket.
I still carry this in my demo box.

Al

 

[Mark Hepburn]

We all need all the help we can get regardless of skill level perceived or actual.

I use the Geiger vertical solution. It replaces the pocket and is set to the vertical height to use with the Ellsworth Jig.
The new version has some built in stops to give a micro bevel and to set it to a spindle gouge position.
http://m.geigerssolutions.com/Vertical-Solution-Pro-Sharp-4X.html

I have a couple of 3/4" gouges but haven't used them in years.
The veri- grind can be set to to replicate the Ellsworth grind but the pocket has to be 4" below the center of the wheel and 7" form the front of the wheel.
The veri-grind with the verticle solution works well.
Don has a simple set-up for the very-grind but I can't find it. He puts the veri-grind on a bench and sets the angle so the point that goes in the pocket is a certain distance off the bench.

I also have a block of wood that I machined to raise the pocket height. It fits in the woulverine pocket.
I still carry this in my demo box.

Al

Al,
That Geiger rig is interesting. I see that on his site, David Ellsworth recommends it. And I'm always looking to Improve my methods. Do you find it to be quite a bit better than other systems?

I also made a block of wood right after I got my gouge. My grinder is on a riser so I had to adjust for that to get the 4" rise. And for the distance, I've painted the arm to indicate the proper distance.


The block screws through a hole I put in the pocket.

 

[hockenbery]

Al, That Geiger rig is interesting. I see that on his site, David Ellsworth recommends it. And I'm always looking to Improve my methods. Do you find it to be quite a bit better than other systems? I also made a block of wood right after I got my gouge. My grinder is on a riser so I had to adjust for that to get the 4" rise. And for the distance, I've painted the arm to indicate the proper distance. <img src="http://www.aawforum.org/vbforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8415"/> The block screws through a hole I put in the pocket.

If your wooden block puts mine to shame. I assume it works well for you and you don't need vertical solution
The Vertical solution would replace your wooden block and then some
The metal gives a little smoother rotation of the Vari-grind and Don provides a couple of tools to quickly align the distance.
With the cbn wheels you can put stops on the bar to align the distance since the wheel keeps the same diameter forever within woodturner tolerances.

The Ellsworth jig pivot works really well against wood.
I rounded up my Vari-grind pivot point on the grinder. Just sharpened it like i do a scratch awl but left a tiny flat at the point.

If your vari-grind fits the big gouge just align the angle to give the same front bevel as the Ellsworth.
You could put a properly sharp end gouge in the vari-grind protruding 2", open the screw, put the bevel tight to the wheel and tighten the screw.
It should then replicate the Ellsworth grind.

Al

 

[Mark Hepburn]

If your wooden block puts mine to shame. I assume it works well for you and you don't need vertical solution
The Vertical solution would replace your wooden block and then some
The metal gives a little smoother rotation of the Vari-grind and Don provides a couple of tools to quickly align the distance.
With the cbn wheels you can put stops on the bar to align the distance since the wheel keeps the same diameter forever within woodturner tolerances.

The Ellsworth jig pivot works really well against wood.
I rounded up my Vari-grind pivot point on the grinder. Just sharpened it like i do a scratch awl but left a tiny flat at the point.

If your vari-grind fits the big gouge just align the angle to give the same front bevel as the Ellsworth.
You could put a properly sharp end gouge in the vari-grind protruding 2", open the screw, put the bevel tight to the wheel and tighten the screw.
It should then replicate the Ellsworth grind.

Al

Thanks Al. I'm going to try that setup and give it a go tonight. I like that Geiger setup though, and am really thinking about getting it down the road (money's always an issue, isn't it?).

The Ellsworth jig does work well on the wood and I use that for my Ellsworth gouges, and truthfully haven't used the Vari Grind too much and need to learn. I'm going to grind the pivot point as you suggest. Seems that it will maintain position far more easily that way.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark, you do not say which flute profile you have (V or U). If it is a U profile, you may not be able to get a satisfactory long sidegrind using jigs. You might be interested in Glenn Lucas's new video on sharpening. (My review of it appears in the current issue of the AAW Woodturner.) Glenn has an interesting discussion of the effect of flute profile on sharpening. Among other interesting results, he points out that it is very difficult to get a satisfactory sidegrind wing shape on a U-profile bowl gouge.

Dennis,

Thanks again for the tip. I re-read your review this morning and went ahead and ordered the video. Money well spent I'm sure. Sharpening is one of my Achilles heels (man, do I have a bunch of those!)

Mark

 

[Dean Center]

We all need all the help we can get regardless of skill level perceived or actual.
The veri- grind can be set to to replicate the Ellsworth grind but the pocket has to be 4" below the center of the wheel and 7" form the front of the wheel.
Al

I had a brief conversation with David Ellsworth about roughly this question last fall. He said to get the Ellsworth grind from a Varigrind jig, you don't have to have the precise measurements that he specifies for his own jig. You just have to increased how far the tool protrudes. I believe he said to add 1/8", though I get a very serviceable Ellsworth grind by setting up my Varigrind as Doug Thompson shows in his picture and using 2" of tool protrusion. You can set the nose angle with the length of the arm, then it's just a matter of rolling to each side as usual.

 

[robo hippy]

Well, some of us just have to be different. I quit using the swept back grinds several years ago. Nothing wrong with it. For my turning purposes, the swept grind variations are more of a 'one tool does it all' type of tool. This means it does just about every cut fairly well, but, and this is a big but to me, specialty tools will do the cuts better, but you have to switch back and forth. My preference is for 45 degree nose angle and about a 40 to 45 degree sweep for finish cuts on the outside of a bowl, and pretty much the same for the inside. It just cuts better for me. For the transition and across the bottom, I generally prefer a 70 degree nose bevel, and a more ) shaped nose. I can roll it way more over for a higher shear angle and cleaner cut. I haven't used a jig for maybe 10 years. The only real difference I have seen in the variations of the swept back designs is that some prefer a straight line from the top of the flute to the nose, and some prefer a more parabolic type line with a bit more round as it nears the nose. Some grind the sweep back an inch or three on one wing for shear scraping and cutting. I guess I could do that, but prefer scrapers for that cut.

robo hippy

 

[Jamie Straw]

Shape of your wood platform?

[snip] I also made a block of wood right after I got my gouge. My grinder is on a riser so I had to adjust for that to get the 4" rise. And for the distance, I've painted the arm to indicate the proper distance.

View attachment 8415
The block screws through a hole I put in the pocket.

Mark, I've been wanting to add something to my Wolverine V-pocket. Looks like the horizontal part (that rests on the V) is flat, correct? Would you mind giving me some detail about how it screws on? Thanks!

 

[Jamie Straw]

The simple answer to your question is no, it will not significantly effect the result, provided (1) that you adjust the V-arm to obtain the desired bevel angle, and (2) that the length of the wings is no larger than approximately the diameter of the gouge.
[snip]

Dennis (or anyone who's there) -- is the length of the wing defined as distance from nose-tip to back of wing? Just checking, don't want to assume. Have been reviewing several sharpening threads to get better understanding of bowl gouges and the Wolverine system. Thanks.

 

[Bill Boehme]

Dennis (or anyone who's there) -- is the length of the wing defined as distance from nose-tip to back of wing? Just checking, don't want to assume. Have been reviewing several sharpening threads to get better understanding of bowl gouges and the Wolverine system. Thanks.

That is as good a definition as any since there isn't any other specific point that we can say is the starting point for measuring the length.

 

[Mark Hepburn]

Mark, I've been wanting to add something to my Wolverine V-pocket. Looks like the horizontal part (that rests on the V) is flat, correct? Would you mind giving me some detail about how it screws on? Thanks!

Jamie,

Sorry it took so long to reply. Been out on a job and then family coming in and well, life gets in the way of the important stuff like turning

I used a threaded bolt and a jig knob from an old jig (but you can get that stuff at Rockler, Amazon and elsewhere). Cut the bolt so it's basically a short piece of threaded rod, inserted it in the back of my wood insert and marked the V-pocket. I drilled a slightly larger hole in the pocket and so when I need the wood jig, I bolt it on using the knob. It holds tight and works well.

I also made a small, thin wood insert to cover the back of the pocket when I'm not using the Ellsworth jig block, because the hole can interfere a bit with the handle ends of other tools. I just cut a block and put a small dowel in the back to act as a positioning tenon; the block just floats in the pocket.

Yes, the horizontal part is flat, but there is a small pocket drilled in the center to position the Vari-Grind and the Ellsworth jigs and keep them from drifting.



Mark