shop safety

[ahoiberg]

hey all...

i'm sure this thread has been beat to death, but it seems important so here i go...

for actual spindle turning, before you get to sanding, is any sort of breathing protection necessary? or will the face shield take care of that.

i've seen pictures of a lot of turners not wearing a respirator or even a dust mask when sanding... what's the school of thought here? i just purchased a respirator the other day for sanding and finishing.

also, i've read that even being in your shop and moving around, turning on tools, etc will kick up hazardous dust particles that you can't necessarily see. so must you wear breathing protection at all times? my shop is in the garage and i try to keep doors open and my little fan running at all times while i'm working to get the dust to migrate outside. i've not been able to afford a real DC system now and probably won't for a while.

i also got a HEPA filter for my shopvac to try and cut down on dust escaping from that too....

any general help/thoughts/opinions in this matter will be appreciated.

thanks all!

 

[grybeard]

Andrew
there are a couple ways around the dust issue that are not to costly for us on the tight budget end....
I have a small shop .14x14 ...when the weather is good i always have the windows open and the door....but in closed up cases if i am creating alot of saw dust I made an air filter out of an old furnace blower.....I built a box to house it and installed filters on the inlet and outlet side that i blow out about once a week depending how bad i make the dust ..sometimes everyday...I timed this one time when i first installed it in the center of the shop ceiling high...stirred up alot of dust with the compressor and it took about 5 min to clear the air with all the windows and door closed. I thought that was pretty good for a $10.00 setup ...the only other thing i use is a box fan in the window by my lathe ..that is on all the time and vents all the dust (not the chips) outside when i am turning ...so far its all worked pretty well ...
Bob

 

[almather]

I do about the same. And always wear a dust mask. If I don't I can smell the dust, and if that happens I figure that it is not just getting into my nose, but other places as well. My thoughts are it is that fine dust that easily floats around that is the worst.

Al

 

[cypher]

also, i've read that even being in your shop and moving around, turning on tools, etc will kick up hazardous dust particles that you can't necessarily see.

Well . . you sorta answered your own question. Unless you have a perfect dust filter (cost a fortune, I say they doesn't exist) you should always wear dust protection. My school of thought says if in doubt . . . you should be wearing one. Some woods produce some nasty dust but even non-toxic woods produce fine particles that are always an irritant to your system. I ALWAYS wear dust protection when in my shop. I use fans and open doors to keep good airflow but nothing really stops that initial dust in your face when cutting, sanding, etc.

 

[john lucas]

I run a dust collector next to the item being sanded. I also use it when power carving because it kicks up a lot of dust. Sometimes I'll run a fan at my back to sort of force the dust toward the collector. during the spring and summer I work as much as possible with the garage doors open. That gives me a good cross ventilation.
I know a respirator would keep more dust away from me but I refuse to go into the shop looking and feeling like I work for a Hazmat company. I have nothing against dust protection so each person has to read up on the dangers and figure out how far they are willing to go to protect themselves.

 

[ahoiberg]

grybeard,

where did you find the old furnace blower? that sounds like a great idea... you wouldn't happen to have a picture of your setup would you?

thanks for all your replies.

 

[KEW]

After much research, here are my conclusions on the matter.

First, a face shield affords virtually no protection against the size of particles you need to be concerned with.

There are really two issues: the toxins in the wood, and the dust. Generally both drive the end goal of not wanting to breathe it, but the toxins also can cause problems through skin contact.

Factors affecting how bad the dust is for you:
1) Individual sensitivity.
2) Type of wood (generally, the more rot & insect resistant, the more toxic).
3) Is the wood spalted?
4) Are you cutting and sanding bark, etc?
5) How dry is the wood?

How much is too much? I don't think there is a definitive answer; only the rule that less is better.
Even if you have little sensitivity, exposure will increase your sensitivity over time.
I hope I am quoting Russ Fairfield correctly as saying "There are two kinds of people; those who are allergic to Cocobolo, and those who will be".
I believe the same is true of any wood. Even woods with no truly toxic aspect will pose a nusiance dust which will tax your lungs after repeated exposure. There is a certain size range which is too small for your natural defense systems to protect you, this is below the size you can see.

I estimate my dust exposure based on whether my snot is clear and by how much dust is on my glasses. These are the larger particles but you can figure if they are there, the stuff you cannot see is also there.

If the wood is wet, the shavings are peeling off without dust, and the wood is not toxic, I consider it reasonable to turn without any protection.

Anytime sanding is time to wear protection (I haven't tried wet sanding, which may be the exception)

A dust collector system is an improvement, but not a total remedy.

The closer to the source you can catch the dust, the better off you will be.

Some inexpensive means to help protect your lungs:

1) If project, equipment, and weather permit, take it outside. Have any breeze to your right or left to carry the dust away. If the wind is behind you, there will be dead pockets and eddies where the dust will come at you.

2) Position your work as close to a large fan which is as close to a window as possible (preferable in the window). Pay attention to be sure there is a easy source of clean air to replace what is sent out the window so the through flow is as good as possible.

3) Wear a respirator.

4) If the weather keeps you from blowing air outside, mount a 20 X 20 HVAC filter to a 20" box fan just behind your lathe. Turn it on high when sanding. It really will get most of the very fine stuff that would otherwise float up and into your nose. This also makes for a decent inexpensive air cleaner.

5) Cardboard and duct tape make for an easy way to fabricate custom shrouds.

6) Consider setting up a system to gently blow clean air across your face.

7) Use an old hair dryer blower with tubing and a face shield with tight weave cloth to make a positive pressure air supply system. (make sure to screen the intake port against bugs if this is from outside).

Cheers,
Kurt

 

[KEW]

where did you find the old furnace blower?

Any HVAC guy should be able to set you up. Whenever a furnace gets replaced, the old blower is usually fine, but gets scrapped.

 

[GeorgeH]

The blowers (squirrel cage fans) are fairly easy to find through surplus outlets, salvage yards, etc. and typically run between ten and twenty bucks.

 

[MichaelMouse]

Pretty good analysis, Kurt, though I think the plastic lenses are an earlier and more sensitive indicator than snot, given static. Snot is a later symptom.

Still, the best of the best is to take it away as it's generated, and that means pulling some air volume down and out from the work. Also means any turbulence from your furnace fan will interfere, so place that item downwind of the DC setup.

Paper masks are certainly easy and effective against the dust, since even the lowest "filtration" rated types reduce the inhalation vacuum to such low levels that dust finds a place in the oil on your skin rather than making it to your nose. No chemical protection, though. For that you need charcoal or an external air source.

BTW, snot is good. When your nose runs, it's really doing the job on particulates. It's when it doesn't that you worry.

 

[n7bsn]

Ralph’s Rules of Woodworking
(liberally stolen from better woodworkers then me)

1) There is no rule more important then wearing safety glasses…. Unless it’s wearing a full face safety shield.
2) There are two types of woodworkers, those that are allergic to wood dust, and those that will be.
3) If it’s loud, it’s too loud. WHAT… I CANâ€ÂT HEAR YOU OVER THE #$($* ROUTER (wear hearing protection)
.....
Me, I have a DC on the lathe, a whole shop air filter and a power-dust mask. I figure they are cheaper then the medical bills I could have otherwise

 

[waltben]

Dust

I pretty much agree with Kurt. I'm one of the many who have hay fever reactions to domestic black walnut dust, so I don a mask for that as well as anything with black mold or spalting and almost all imported wood. My shop is also in my garage and I have the door open and two large commercial fans on when sanding to both blow the dust out and suck in outside air (today with almost as much pollen as the dust I'm putting out!). For winter, I use both my dust collector and a large filter unit. I've a small shop in my basement (about 10' by 8') with another filter unit and small dust collector. I run them for turning as well as sanding on my mini lathe.

I've heard many 'professionals' (people selling collectors & filters mostly) tout overkill systems that would bankrupt the typical turner. I also listened to a doctor once say that the only documented wood dust related illness was at a factory in Europe processing birch back in the 1930's. At the same time, I know a luthier who is fighting an serious but undiagnosed lung condition today and he believes its from exposure to imported wood dust. I think a common sense approach is really what's needed, and good industrial grade filter masks aren't that expensive.

 

[David Somers]

Ahoiberg,

I have a small dust Collector, single bag, side mount, that I use for the lathe and bandsaw. It ran about $120 at Lowes when they first opened on the island a few years ago. I have seen it with similar prices since in catalogs. Then I spent about another $50 in pvc pipe and fittings to get to those two devices. It works great when sanding. As a second precaution I also use a Triton powered face shield. It also works great and has the advantage of moving cool air over my face when I am working, a plus on warm days here. Between those two I don't detect any dust by smell or in mucous.

A good fan blowing dust away from you could take the place of the dust collector if you can blow it outdoors. If you are in an enclosed room though I would probably do the dust collector, if for no other reason than to keep my cleanup down in the shop and the house. Either way the Triton is a nice way to protect my face and keep out dust as well.

I really enjoy both turning and good health and don't want to compromise either by being careless about simple safety issues.

Dave

 

[ahoiberg]

well, thanks a bunch everyone for chiming in on this issue. i think it's very important for guys just getting into turning (and woodworking altogether) to pay attention to. i've got a good respirator and some fans to start with. i'm on the hunt for a furnace blower (would any blower type fan work just as well? not specifically a squirrel cage?) and hopefully i'll be able to afford a real dust collector here soon!

thanks again for your responses.

 

[flyrod444]

I am building a shop behind my house and I hope to put an old large green house fan in the attack to help get the dust out of the air. Thought I would frame and sheath a wooden duck to it with a couple intakes in the ceiling and let it move air born dust out side. It should work great in the warmer months. Might have to devert the output through a filter and back into the shop for cooler months.
Jack

 

[Brujo]

Please wear your respirator

I actually run a health and safety program at a University in CA. I could give all kinds of academic references to why you should have dust protection but I will not bore you all. Bottom line...dust collector or not, you should always be wearing a 1/2 mask respirator if you have facial hair it needs to be a positive pressure type. They are cheap and available from most big box tool stores.

Working with out one is akin to not wearing safety glasses/faceshields. I would lecture more but I still remember the debate on wearing gloves aroound spinning equipment or not, so I doubt it would do any good. Nothing like having witnessed lossed fingers or having to deal with workers comp. issues related to lung damage from wood dust to open ones eyes.

 

[KEW]

Specific filter is very important

It needs to be pointed out that many filters as provided with dust collectors are dangerous.
If you didn't know better you might be convinced that your DC was protecting your lungs, however many stock filters pass about anything smaller that 1 micron. This is the size which is most dangerous and the DC does an excellent job of keeping these particles suspended in the air for you to breathe! Generally you should replace stock filters with a cartridge style filter or a "Shaker Felt" bag.

Here is an example of the felt bag:
http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2181

Note that the bag is not effective until it is seasoned (has the initial coat of dust caked on it) as mentioned in the description.


Also, if you are using a fan with an HVAC filter, You really need to use something like the 3M Filtrete which filters at the sub-micron level.

Cheers,
Kurt

 

[ahoiberg]

i've got facial hair (a goatee) but my 1/2 mask respirator fits around my goatee so i don't see the need for the whole positive pressure system. and i make sure i wear it when i need to.

again, would any type of blower fan with a good intake be OK for the home built air filter? and using the good 3M filtrete filters in it for 1 micron and less?

 

[Jake Debski]

Andrew,

I scavenged a kitchen vent hood, 2-speed, for my air cleaner. The high speed moves 750 cfm. Low speed is unknown (unreadable on tag) but used more than high speed. I put this in a box with 2 opposing sides open to accept doubled(2), 4 total, 14X20X1 inch 1-micron filters. When the outer filter gets loaded I replace the cleaner inner filter with a new one. That old inner filter is then moved to the outside. I have since purchased a commercial air cleaner but still use the home-built when needed. I feel my home-built is not that much less effective than the one I bought.

 

[ahoiberg]

thanks jake.

so, basically, any fan that can move a lot of air will be acceptable?

i've been calling around to salvage yards with no luck... asked the hVAC guy at work and he couldn't find anything...

maybe i should just head out to a junk yard myself and see... i doubt those guys know everything they've got there...

 

[ahoiberg]

jake, another question about your hood fan.

is this just a fan from a regular, small kitchen hood? i've seen a few on craigslist for like 10 bucks and wonder if this will be powerful enough. i suppose i could buy them both and make 2.

the fans only appear to be 10 or so inches in diameter...

thanks for the info!

 

[MichaelMouse]

thanks jake.

so, basically, any fan that can move a lot of air will be acceptable?

Certainly, as long as you construct the system properly. Squirrel-cage types will deliver more velocity, blade types more volume. Depending on your objective, getting rid of the airborne dust by ejecting it to the atmosphere away from you or collecting it for disposal, you may choose either.

Collection is a matter of thinking as well. I see the filter folks have already weighed in, but filtration is only one way of approaching the problem. If you are trying to trap in a mesh - filtration, you will prefer high vacuum. Notice that your vacuum cleaner uses a cage fan and works against the back pressure of a mesh of increasingly smaller gap size due to dust caking on the filter. So does the average dust collector. Straight flow and a filter after the fan.

Your forced-air furnace works on a different principle - entrapment. The air is at a high volume and is carried through, rather than to a filter. In this case, you want to favor multiple paths for the air and what it carries, providing so many and divergent paths that the dust will settle and become entrapped and settle in still air, not become embedded in a mesh. You want turbulence, and you want your filter upstream of the fan. .

Then there's a third method, a bit more complicated, which involves charging a plate to attract the oppositely charged particles. This is the finest "filtration" possible. Electrostatic precipitation. Turbulent air to slow the particles in the stream to the point at which attraction will overcome motion. Your nasopharynx works on similar principles. Turbulence around the nares and hairs starts the material moving in random directions, slowing to where they are then collected not by electricity but stickiness of the protective mucus.

Go with pre-filters of more open fiberglass type to create the turbulence ahead of the fan. Vacuum-filter systems with higher pressure will require much tighter leak tolerances. One or two open filters will keep you from having to clean the third too often. The third can be of the felted type. It'll load real (too) fast if it's your only filter. You can get the entire sub-assembly in one shot by acquiring the plenum and fan of an old furnace. Don't ask for the motor, ask for the furnace, less the burner. Gives you an automatic leg up in construction. If you can't get one, you can use a high-volume low-pressure blade fan or fans, though you may find that it won't handle a tightly felted final filter.

Less pressure your system has, the closer you want it to get to the source of the material.

 

[Jake Debski]

jake, another question about your hood fan.

is this just a fan from a regular, small kitchen hood? i've seen a few on craigslist for like 10 bucks and wonder if this will be powerful enough. i suppose i could buy them both and make 2.

the fans only appear to be 10 or so inches in diameter...

thanks for the info!

Mine is a squirrel cage blower 750 cfm, from a kitchen hood. An old furnace blower will work but requires considerably more filter surface area. Furnace blowers can often be slowed down by a pulley change. All the hood fans Ive ever seen are direct drive. Depending on where you live, preferably warm year round, you could hunt up a commercial kitchen style blower. This would require some ducting to the outside but would make a great system.

 

[Matthew Clarke]

You can purchase a squirrel cage fan at the following web address: http://www.surpluscenter.com.

Click on the 'electrical' tab at the top of the webpage. That will take you to a page where you will see a selection of electrical items. In the section labled 'blowers/fans', you will see that they have squirrel cage blowers for AC, DC and 3 Phase service. Click on whichever type of service meets your requirements. The price is right and they back up their products.

Good luck,

Matt

 

[gsieracki]

what size to filter down to?

Great timing on this subject. I was going to start a seperate thread but it fits in here so ...

What size particle should we filter down to?

I've hear as small as 0.5 micron.

I use a DC single-stage system and a half mask respirator. Saving up for a positive pressure system with extra batteries, Trion, Trend or ??? This is since I do have facial hair.

I am also looking at replacement bags for the DC system. I believe current ones, they came with the unit four years ago, only filter to 5 or 7 micron. There are available replacements at 1 micron.

I am also using the Filtrete air filters, making my own holder for them and either attaching it to a fan or my DC.

any additional thoughts, comments, etc. appreciated.

I do work in my garage with the front door and side door open for ventilation. But you can still see particles hanging in the air after a long day sometimes.

Thanks!

Gerry