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So frustrated and so (bleeped) re: buffing

Jamie Straw

Jamie Straw

Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
1,616
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222
Location
Bainbridge Island, WA
Beyond frustrated with getting the Beall system to work on my lathe. As some of you remember, I had a new spindle installed 2 weeks ago, thanks to help from my local AAW buddies. Beall sent me a new mandrel for their 3-wheel buffing system, since the first one didn't seat right in the spindle. The second one was better -- not perfect, but socked in there pretty well, so I just went for it on a couple of small bowls. Well, today I took the long mandrel out and *#%^@ scratches on the taper. Ran my finger inside the new spindle, and there's a corresponding blemish inside the taper. And yes, I've been good about keeping it clean in there!

I just received the bowl-buffing mops, taper and adapter, but I'm seriously paranoid about putting it on the lathe. My first thought was to dispense with the 3-wheel system and go to single wheels, all on that nice short mandrel. But all this hassle leads me to think that buffing on the lathe is not, not, not an option! Question is, can I afford anything else? I don't have the knowledge or experience to go adapting something not meant for buffing, really need to just buy something that will do the job right out of the box. Please, tell me there's light at the end of this tunnel.:(:(:( What about my drill press?:p
 
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Is hand buffing an option for what you are turning. Apply the wax and hold a soft paper towel against it with pressure.

Or get a used furnace fan motor, reverse the wiring so it runs backwards, get the ball adaptor and single wheels and you have a permanent buffing station.

Couple of options.
 
dbonertz said:
Is hand buffing an option for what you are turning. Apply the wax and hold a soft paper towel against it with pressure.

Or get a used furnace fan motor, reverse the wiring so it runs backwards, get the ball adaptor and single wheels and you have a permanent buffing station.

Couple of options.
Click to expand...

Ah hah! If you mean the ones that run the squirrel-cage things, we have an old one (or two, perhaps). I don't know what a "ball adaptor" is (unless you meant Beall). Can't I just move to the downhill side (instead of reversing the wiring)? Thanks!

Oh, re: hand buffing, not sure that would do what I intend -- I've been using the 3-stage system with EEE, White Diamond and wax
 
Douglas Ladendorf said:
Use a dedicated motor with single buffs attached. Or you could do like I did and buy a used buffer.

Doug
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The new ones are definitely out of my $$league$$. Click here to see the only used one currently in the wider Seattle area. Butt-ugly and overly big footprint, but at 3HP, it certainly should do the job. Not sure about the price, have no idea what's reasonable there. (Ah, actually I found another one, Balder motor, $750. Can't go there.)
 
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Jamie Straw said:
Ohhhh, that would be so not good. So, Odie, since you're here -- is 3450rpm too fast? There are cheapies out there, but that's their rpm.
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I've never tried it that fast, but my guess is it's.....way too fast! :(
 
Also, Jamie......You're likely to have a few catches with buffing, until you get the hang of it. At 3450rpm, they would probably be pretty spectacular! I've often though even a little slower than 1825rpm would be a little better, but I'm very used to it at this speed now.

ko
 
I built my own buffing station, but if you want to mount a bare motor, you might be interested in something like this:

http://www.harborfreight.com/universal-bench-grinder-stand-3184.html

That shelf might be a good place to add some weight. Also look for old shop tools on Craig's List that might have the kind of motor you're looking for. Personally, I wouldn't go less than 3/4hp. Changing the direction of rotation is easy to do. Someone here can help you with that. (I'm not good at electrical things, but I did change the rotation of my buffing motor......IIRC, there was a diagram on the motor that showed what connections to make.)
 
odie said:
Also, Jamie......You're likely to have a few catches with buffing, until you get the hang of it. At 3450rpm, they would probably be pretty spectacular! I've often though even a little slower than 1825rpm would be a little better, but I'm very used to it at this speed now.

ko
Click to expand...

Grizzly sells one that's 1725, has 1" shafts with "...a 5/8" threaded arbor on the ends." Have to call Beall and find out if their stuff would work with it. Hopefully, something used will show up -- $340 is way more than I want to pour into this (am grumpy -- thought the buffing thing was all settled).
 
Jamie, for me a buffing station works. I got an 1800 rpm motor. Or 1700?Went to a used steel yard and got a couple used 1 inch pillow blocks and a 30 inch 1 inch steel bar. Had a fellow drill and tap the ends for a half inch bolt. Mounted all that on a piece of 4by12. Your two pulleys should be the same size. Got those used also. They are for a 1/2 inch pulley belt. Need to rig up an off on switch.The right hand buff never gets changed till its to small. The left hand ones I change out all the time depending on whats getting buffed, or waxed. You have to hand cinch them down as they can unthread. You will want to sand the sharp edges off the bolts as the piece is spinning. Just a bummer to hit those sharp edges against your work piece. I did buy my motor new. But used ones are cheap. You just put a washer on your bolt and thread it through the buff center. One more washer and its set till the buff gets worn away. Years. I dont fret the right hand buff getting various compounds on it. Left hand has dedicated buffs. They do need broke in. Like when new they are not round. You work them into round by using them.
anyway. Not expensive and set and ready to go all the time.
 
KellyDunn said:
Jamie, for me a buffing station works. I got an 1800 rpm motor. Or 1700?Went to a used steel yard and got a couple used 1 inch pillow blocks and a 30 inch 1 inch steel bar. Had a fellow drill and tap the ends for a half inch bolt. Mounted all that on a piece of 4by12. Your two pulleys should be the same size. Got those used also. They are for a 1/2 inch pulley belt. Need to rig up an off on switch.The right hand buff never gets changed till its to small. The left hand ones I change out all the time depending on whats getting buffed, or waxed. You have to hand cinch them down as they can unthread. You will want to sand the sharp edges off the bolts as the piece is spinning. Just a bummer to hit those sharp edges against your work piece. I did buy my motor new. But used ones are cheap. You just put a washer on your bolt and thread it through the buff center. One more washer and its set till the buff gets worn away. Years. I dont fret the right hand buff getting various compounds on it. Left hand has dedicated buffs. They do need broke in. Like when new they are not round. You work them into round by using them.
anyway. Not expensive and set and ready to go all the time.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the details, Kelly. If my step-son didn't have 2 young kids, he'd probably throw that together for me in an afternoon.:) Did you happen to take a look at the Craig's List one that I found? <click here> Would love someone's opinion/comments on it. Though I live only 9 miles from Seattle and its large industrial areas, it's a $35 ferry ride, so I don't get over there much. Your post will be my guide if I decide to DIY it.
 
I did a quick Google search" Seattle, electric motor repair" and found three listed. Might give them a call and see if they might have a used 3/4HP , 1750 RPM motor. They could set it up to run counterclockwise for you.
 
Jamie,

I can offer an explanation for why Morse taper shanks sometimes spin in the socket even when there isn't a large torque load which would be the normally expected reason. Some tapers are self holding and others are self extracting. The Morse taper is considered a self holding taper. Normally, a self holding taper doesn't need a drawbar IF AND ONLY IF there is sufficient axial load in addition to the torque load. An axial load means a load along the axis pushing the taper shank into the spindle socket ... doing what a drawbar would be doing. One example would be where you have tailstock pressure when turning a spindle between centers to provide the needed axial force to prevent slipping. Another would be when drilling a hole where there is axial force caused by the drill bit that is pushing against the work piece.

An example of not having sufficient axial load to keep the Morse taper connection from slipping would be if you already had a hole in a work piece and you wanted to clean up and very slightly enlarge the hole with a drill bit that was only a few thousandths larger. In this case, there would be almost no axial load pushing against the MT shank. This is a common reason that MT shanks lose their frictions hold and start to spin. One fix would be to use a drawbar or find a way to apply tailstock pressure.

A caution about HVAC squirrel cage blower motors is that they have a critical peak efficiency only when operated at or near full torque load conditions where they are driving the blower and working against a back pressure caused by the filter, ducts, registers, heat exchanger, and evaporator. When they are just sitting in the open basically idling while spinning a buffing wheel, their efficiency drops essentially to zero. Under those operating conditions, they will be drawing high current at low efficiency and basically cooking the motor. So if you keep that in mind and only run it briefly, a minute or so then turn it off for five or ten minutes then things probably will be OK. Just don't let it set there running while it is not being used. One upside of HVAC motors is that you can often find six-pole (1350 RPM) or eight-pole motors (900 RPM) which would give a choice of lower speeds which simplifies obtaining a slower speed.
 
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Jamie Straw said:
My first thought was to dispense with the 3-wheel system and go to single wheels, all on that nice short mandrel.
Click to expand...

That's what I did many years ago: I bought the single-mandrel version with three wheels. Then almost immediately I got tired of changing the wheels so I ordered two extra mandrels so each wheel is mounted on its own short mandrel. This is so much quicker and easier to use. There is more clearance around the single wheels for shallow bowls and platters. The three wheels take up very little space on the shelf since they almost nest together. They are very quick to set up and remove. Sometimes I just use one wheel. I've never had one come loose.

I like the speed control on the lathe - sometimes I buff slowly on delicate things. I like the mass and sturdiness of the headstock, and the vertical rotation. I'm having trouble imagining buffing on a drill press. I would hate to take up room in my shop for yet another motor dedicated to buffing.

JKJ
 
Beall

Look up Beall on YouTube. They have a 3 part video on setup and operation using a motor. Used 1/2 or 3/4hp motors are cheap and plentiful. Get a 1725rpm that does or can rotate counterclockwise when looking at the end of the shaft. The Beall adaptor attaches permanently and changing wheels is a no brainer. Relax...like a bad meal, this too shall pass. Cheers.
 
same as Bob

I do the same as Bob Mezzatesta, with one additional trick. I find that the 8 inch wheels at 1750 rpm are sometimes too stiff and too aggressive, especially the Tripoli wheel. If you could dial down the rpms of the motor, you can make the wheels softer, but the motor I have has one speed only. Switching to 4 inch wheels at 1750 rpm does the same thing, it makes them softer. The 4 inch bowl buffs (mushroom shape) are similarly soft.
 
Jamie Straw said:
Ah hah! If you mean the ones that run the squirrel-cage things, we have an old one (or two, perhaps). I don't know what a "ball adaptor" is (unless you meant Beall). Can't I just move to the downhill side (instead of reversing the wiring)? Thanks!

Oh, re: hand buffing, not sure that would do what I intend -- I've been using the 3-stage system with EEE, White Diamond and wax
Click to expand...

Yes I meant Beall. I either misspelled or auto correct. Reversing the wiring will keep it from unscrewing. It is really simple to do. The fan motors are generally 1/2 hp and run at 1750 rpm which is a good speed for buffing. I have had mine for about eight years and still going strong. I got it free so I just leave it set up for a dedicated station.
 
If you really want control get a 3/4 hp three phase motor and connect through a VFD (variable frequency drive) to convert the home single phase. With the VFD you can vary the speed as needed. They can be had on eBay for less than $100.

Doug
 
Nor am I an expert but my understanding is that BRUSH type motors will work with this speed controller. What say you more knowledgeable folks?
BTW, it's on sale for $19.99

Just to clarify, was not suggesting useing a router for this.
 
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Bill Boehme said:
[Snip]
BTW, I can offer an explanation for why Morse taper shanks sometimes spin in the socket even when there isn't a large torque load which would be the usual suspect. Some tapers are self holding and others are self extracting. The Morse taper is considered a self holding taper. Normally, a self holding taper doesn't need a drawbar IF AND ONLY IF there is an axial load in addition to the torque load. An axial load means a load along the axis pushing the taper shank into the spindle socket. One example would be where you have tailstock pressure when turning a spindle between centers. Another would be when drilling a hole where there is axial force pushing the drill bit into the work piece. An example of not having an axial load would be if you already had a hole in a work piece and you wanted to clean up and very slightly enlarge the hole with a drill bit that was only a few thousandths larger. In this case, there would be almost no axial load pushing against the MT shank. This is a common reason that MT shanks lose their frictions hold and start to spin. One fix would be to use a drawbar or find a way to apply tailstock pressure.
Click to expand...
The long Beall mandrel has a divot for the tailstock, which of course I use (or "used"). Nothing for a drawbar. The mandrel that is used for the mops does have provision for a drawbar, though it's a different size than what I use for my wine stopper mandrel from Ruth Niles.

A word of warning about using a HVAC squirrel cage blower motor to run a buffing station: those motors are designed for peak efficiency when they operate under full load conditions where they are driving the blower and working against a back pressure caused by the filter, ducts, registers, heat exchanger, and evaporator. When they are just sitting in the open and spinning a buffing wheel, their efficiency drops essentially to zero. This means they will be drawing maximum current and turning all that electrical energy into heat ... cooking the motor.[emph. added] So keep that in mind. If you just run it briefly, a minute or so then turn it off for five or ten minutes then things probably will be OK. Just don't let it set there running while it is not being used.
Click to expand...

Ooooo, so glad you brought this up!
 
Jamie, if you have 220 volt go see the machine. Do you have a turner near you that buffs that could go with you for advise? But at $150 its a massive machine. You sure dont need three horses to buff. If it has 1/2 inch bolts for the buffs you wont have to drill out the buff centers. Anyway I consider that cheap for what it looks like.
 
Michael Nathal said:
I do the same as Bob Mezzatesta, with one additional trick. I find that the 8 inch wheels at 1750 rpm are sometimes too stiff and too aggressive, especially the Tripoli wheel. If you could dial down the rpms of the motor, you can make the wheels softer, but the motor I have has one speed only. Switching to 4 inch wheels at 1750 rpm does the same thing, it makes them softer. The 4 inch bowl buffs (mushroom shape) are similarly soft.
Click to expand...
Just to be clear, I run individual wheels on my lathe using the mt2 fitting. I have a 1/4 x 20 restraining rod to keep the taper from slipping. I have variable speed and reverse. I use the reverse to speed up dismounting subsequent buffs. Very fast. The small bowl buffs, I have 3", need to run faster than the large wheels. Works well for me. p.s. I protect the lathe bed while buffing.
 
Jamie........as you go along and see others work you will come upon some who do not believe in shiny........at some point you will have to decide wheather you like shiney or not shiney.......in other words are you a crow or not a crow..........as you know you can change you mind......

enjoy muchly
 
Bob Mezzatesta said:
Look up Beall on YouTube. They have a 3 part video on setup and operation using a motor. Used 1/2 or 3/4hp motors are cheap and plentiful. Get a 1725rpm that does or can rotate counterclockwise when looking at the end of the shaft. The Beall adaptor attaches permanently and changing wheels is a no brainer.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip about the video, Bob.

Relax...like a bad meal, this too shall pass. Cheers.
Click to expand...
I found the best antidote for yesterday's "bad meal" was to turn a green bowl today and forget about buffing! Been wanting to turn some plum, and landed a plumb logette at the chapter's wood auction Wednesday night, so got the first little NE bowl turned today.:)
 
charlie knighton said:
Jamie........as you go along and see others work you will come upon some who do not believe in shiny........at some point you will have to decide wheather you like shiney or not shiney.......in other words are you a crow or not a crow..........as you know you can change you mind......enjoy muchly
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I'll like some things shiny and some things sorta-shiny and some things not. In the long run, I'll be doing spindle stuff (candlesticks, various utensils, wine stoppers, boxes) and bowls, so variety will be the order of the day vis a vis finishes.
 
KellyDunn said:
Jamie, if you have 220 volt go see the machine. Do you have a turner near you that buffs that could go with you for advise? But at $150 its a massive machine. You sure dont need three horses to buff. If it has 1/2 inch bolts for the buffs you wont have to drill out the buff centers. Anyway I consider that cheap for what it looks like.
Click to expand...

I do have an extra 220V outlet available (near the lathe as a matter of fact). Space is a problem though -- as it is, one of my miter saws is living outside because I haven't squeezed out space for it inside. I think I'll cool my jets and figure out how to use what I have for now. Thanks, though, for taking a look at that ad! If it's still up in a month, I might change my mind. The local CL stuff can be listed for months.:p
 
Dwight R Rutherford said:
Nor am I an expert but my understanding is that BRUSH type motors will work with this speed controller. What say you more knowledgeable folks?
BTW, it's on sale for $19.99
Click to expand...
I read through the reviews, seems like folks have tried it for everything short of a table saw or jointer.:D:D Two mentioned using it to slow down a grinder, but did not specify what kind. There were several who had used it for an angle grinder (I might try that, actually. Those things scare me!) Sorry, I'm not one of those knowledgeable folks, just relying on what some electric-geeks have posted in several threads over several years.

Just to clarify, was not suggesting useing a router for this.
Click to expand...
Too flippin' funny!
 
Jamie Straw said:
... Ooooo, so glad you brought this up!
Click to expand...

I rewrote my earlier post to make it more human readable and to add a few extra thoughts about HVAC motors. So you might want to see where I quoted myself here:

Bill Boehme said:
. . . . A caution about HVAC squirrel cage blower motors is that they have a critical peak efficiency only when operated at or near full torque load conditions where they are driving the blower and working against a back pressure caused by the filter, ducts, registers, heat exchanger, and evaporator. When they are just sitting in the open basically idling while spinning a buffing wheel, their efficiency drops essentially to zero. Under those operating conditions, they will be drawing high current at low efficiency and basically cooking the motor. So if you keep that in mind and only run it briefly, a minute or so then turn it off for five or ten minutes then things probably will be OK. Just don't let it set there running while it is not being used. One upside of HVAC motors is that you can often find six-pole (1350 RPM) or eight-pole motors (900 RPM) which would give a choice of lower speeds which simplifies obtaining a slower speed.
Click to expand...

My thought is that the 1700-1800 RPM motors are still too fast and the good news about HVAC motors is that you can find some that are as slow as 825 RPM. Slower is more expensive because the windings are more complex and difficult to manufacture.

To Dwight, there are various motor configurations of brushed motors. DC motors and universal motors aren't quite the same. Routers, hand drills, and a multitude of handheld tools use universal motors. Universal motors are a special variation of DC motors that can be used on either DC or AC power because because of the way that the commutation is configured.

There are a bunch of speed control devices out there where the basic mechanism is to control the motor speed by controlling the voltage to the motor. There are some higher-end devices that are designed specifically to control DC motors (which are much larger and much more expensive than universal motors). Speed controllers for universal (AC/DC) motors are much simpler devices, but even so, there are a wide variety of devices that range from TCPBITBP (a technical abbreviation for "the cheap plastic box is the best part") to very sophisticated where the HF device would represent the first extreme. The HF unit isn't even a barely passable router speed controller with its very limited range of speed control. I also see that the unit has a 2 Amp switch to supposedly control routers up to 15 Amps. The best part of the HF speed control is that it has a built-in fuse to keep it from burning your shop down when it self destructs on Day 91. The best devices will give your router a full range of speed control. However, the good routers, drills, etc. all already have built-in speed control so no need to mess with some external device. About fifty years ago, I built a Heathkit motor speed controller because routers, drills, and other hand tools didn't have built-in speed control way back then.
 
Jamie I haven't read all the other posts (other than John Beaver's, it was short and too the point).. I use 4" wheels on an 8" extension that screws onto my lathe spindle. I run the lathe about 1200 rpm. I have been doing this for years and it works perfectly. I simply screw in the wheel I want, use it, take it out and screw in the next one. Goes really fast. YOu can reach into fairly deep bowls or do really tiny things (and I know tiny). Don't use much abrasive on them. I just touch the wheels fairly lightly. My White diamond wheel and my wax wheel almost don't look like they have anything on them. They are quite worn from years of use. The Tripoli wheel does look red but not all gunked up like I see some peoples wheels. Anyway, I've been doing it this way for many years and don't see a reason to change. I've buffed 10" bowls and doll house size furniture and turnings. I don't see why anyone needs the 8" wheels.
I tried the 3 wheels on one shaft. made it myself. It might have saved me a tiny bit of time but not much. I usually just lay out all the things that need buffing and do all of them with the Tripoli, change the wheel and do all of the with the White diamond, etc.
I also made up a special buffing device. It was a fairly thick paint roller. I turned wooden ends. I would charge about 2" with Tripoli, 2 with White diamond and 2 with wax. Then I could just buff from one strip to the other. Apparently it didn't work as well as I thought because I haven't used it in years and don't really see a need for it any more. I think I did it when I mass produced 100 Christmas ornaments.
 
john lucas said:
Jamie I haven't read all the other posts (other than John Beaver's, it was short and too the point).. I use 4" wheels on an 8" extension that screws onto my lathe spindle. I run the lathe about 1200 rpm. I have been doing this for years and it works perfectly. I simply screw in the wheel I want, use it, take it out and screw in the next one. Goes really fast. You can reach into fairly deep bowls or do really tiny things (and I know tiny).
Click to expand...
Sounds like a plan to me. I'd much rather use something mounted to the spindle than to the MT. Can you give me specifics on the extension? The only one I've found using a search has spindle-sized male threads on the end. I probably don't know the right search term(s).

Don't use much abrasive on them. I just touch the wheels fairly lightly. My White diamond wheel and my wax wheel almost don't look like they have anything on them. They are quite worn from years of use. The Tripoli wheel does look red but not all gunked up like I see some peoples wheels.
Click to expand...
It's a learning process -- I got too much WD on mine the other night, sounds like if it's visible, it's too much.

[Snip] I usually just lay out all the things that need buffing and do all of them with the Tripoli, change the wheel and do all of the with the White diamond, etc.
Click to expand...

Yep, that's what I figured would be the best work flow. Thanks for the help, any details you can provide are appreciated!
 
I tried the 3 buff mandrel, but quickly found that the buffs were too close together for anything but very small pieces. I bought a used, low speed 6" grinder, mounted the Beall adapter to one side and go with individual buffs that screw onto that adapter. It takes seconds to change them out. Beall says that 1725 rpm is fine with their buffs and I've had good results with both the buff wheels and the balls for the inside of bowls.

I started out pushing too hard, but quickly learned from my mistake. I also learned that pre-cat lacquer is not hard enough to buff the day after I spray it. :(
 
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