Spindle Gouges

[Isaac Litster]

I am interested in getting a Thompson spindle gouge, for tenons, beads/coves, and also roughing bowls similar to Raffan. Thompson has at least four different styles of spindle gouges, and I am not sure which is like Raffans or would be best for said tasks. For size, 1/2 inch (diameter I think). For bowl roughing tasks I would think the detail gouges would not be perfect, but I don't know. I have never used a spindle gouge, neither at school nor from the tools I got with the two lathes we have at home. Does anyone know what Raffan uses, or does anyone else have a spindle gouge that they use for bowl roughing? I'm sure the detail gouges would work for details and tenons, but I think bowl roughing would be the factor that would be most important as I would assume that whichever works best for roughing would also work for details (but details are less important as I can do those with a skew).
If anyone knows or has any ideas, let me know!

 

[Brent@TurnRobust]

Mr. Raffan is quite responsive to inquiries, so I'd suggest you contact him through his website: https://www.richardraffan.com.au/

 

[Michael Brown]

Raffin uses Henry Taylor I believe. I see him utilize a skew and 1/2" spindle... 13mm I think. He doesn't use a detail (shallow flute) or deep flute spindle gouges that I have ever seen. He does occasionally use a spindle roughing gouge.

 

[rkriet]

Richard Raffan uses a 1/2” spindle gouge for roughing small and medium sized bowls, but I’m not sure I would recommend that for someone just starting out because he grinds his gouge asymmetrically and by hand, not with a jig. As a former production turner, he does this for speed. But it takes some experience to grind a gouge this way by hand.

Instead, I would recommend a bowl gouge for roughing out bowls and a 1/2” or 3/8” spindle gouge, ground in the standard way with a jig, for more refined cuts such as beads and coves.

 

[Asher Langton]

Richard Raffan uses a 1/2” spindle gouge for roughing small and medium sized bowls, but I’m not sure I would recommend that for someone just starting out because he grinds his gouge asymmetrically and by hand, not with a jig. As a former production turner, he does this for speed. But it takes some experience to grind a gouge this way by hand.

Raffan says spindle gouges are cheaper, but I think the difference is negligible at best for anyone who isn't a high-volume production turner. It obviously works for him, but I don't see any technical advantage in using a spindle gouge instead of a bowl gouge for roughing. And he's is usually making fairly small bowls in those Youtube videos.

 

[Dean Center]

There are a few people who could pick up an obsidian spear point and turn beautiful work. If you've never used a spindle gouge, why would you want to start by trying it on something for which it is less well suited than a tool designed specifically for the purpose? Why handicap yourself? You can do what you like, and woodturners are famous for developing their own peculiar ways of working, but I would strongly recommend beginning from the easiest point, which is usually the conventional method.

 

[robo hippy]

There are spindle and bowl 'detail' gouges. Both have a shallow flute, and I really don't see much difference between them other than how the noses can be ground, and there are many different nose shape grinds. Most are 'fingernail' grind, which is a bit more rounded rather than pointed. The pointed ones are fine for getting deep into beads for crisp clean detains. The spindle detail gouges are also ground to a more acute bevel, again to get down into the bottom of a bead. I only have one 'detail' style gouge that I use on bowls, and it is ground with a ) nose shape and I use it for a BOB (bottom of bowl) tool, so 65 degree nose bevel angle. I would say for now to use a parabolic fluted gouge, or one of the V flute gouges from D Way or Thompson. If you only get one gouge, use a swept back nose grind, which is more of a 'one tool does it all' type gouge. If you are getting 2, then I go for a 40/40 grind for heavy roughing, and a BOB tool, which has more of a blunt nose angle and a little sweep to the nose, ) shape. I prefer the specialized tools for bowl turning as I think they work better than the swept back grinds. For me, I do all of my heavy roughing cuts with scrapers. I do have a number of videos up on You Tube, mostly geared to bowl turning.

robo hippy

 

[Michael Brown]

There are spindle and bowl 'detail' gouges. Both have a shallow flute, and I really don't see much difference between them other than how the noses can be ground, and there are many different nose shape grinds. Most are 'fingernail' grind, which is a bit more rounded rather than pointed. The pointed ones are fine for getting deep into beads for crisp clean detains. The spindle detail gouges are also ground to a more acute bevel, again to get down into the bottom of a bead. I only have one 'detail' style gouge that I use on bowls, and it is ground with a ) nose shape and I use it for a BOB (bottom of bowl) tool, so 65 degree nose bevel angle. I would say for now to use a parabolic fluted gouge, or one of the V flute gouges from D Way or Thompson. If you only get one gouge, use a swept back nose grind, which is more of a 'one tool does it all' type gouge. If you are getting 2, then I go for a 40/40 grind for heavy roughing, and a BOB tool, which has more of a blunt nose angle and a little sweep to the nose, ) shape. I prefer the specialized tools for bowl turning as I think they work better than the swept back grinds. For me, I do all of my heavy roughing cuts with scrapers. I do have a number of videos up on You Tube, mostly geared to bowl turning.

robo hippy

Even though I would like to imagine that I have anywhere near the experience as RH, I can say two things.

1: The OP specifically asked about using a detail spindle gouge for tenons and roughing, which I would not consider the ideal use at all. I don't think owning a detail gouge for this is worth the investment. Robo's grind advice is my favorite too. I like 40/40 because it's actually possible to turn tenons with with no issue. This grind is also amazing for roughing bowls too.

2: On another note which is rarely mentioned is that Thompson likes creating his flutes long, which generally I really like, but my 1/2" deep flute spindle gouge vibrates more than any other tool I own and perhaps going up to a 5/8" deep flute would not suffer from this the same way, but the length and depth of that flute really seems to exacerbate the harmonics. I have a robust collet handle so I just choke the collet up the flute and it helps a lot, but I speculate that is one major reason for the short flutes on the vast majority of 1/2" spindle gouges.

This same issue doesn't seem to present on his 1/2" parabolic/V (somewhere I heard that very few actually make parabolic) bowl gouges, but on his bottom bowl gouge the longer flute does cause vibration when hanging far out in front of the tool rest. Considering it's a 3/4" bar, the overhang doesn't seem as heretical. Stewart Batty has specifically expressed concern about the depth and length of the BBG flute on Thompson's tools. The main issue here I believe is the same as the deep flute spindle gouge: low wings. spindle gouges and bottom bowl gouge style grinds (with blunt lower shoulders to reduce catches) provide less rigidity for the flute, allowing more vibration.

 

[Mike Darlow]

I am interested in getting a Thompson spindle gouge, for tenons, beads/coves, and also roughing bowls similar to Raffan. Thompson has at least four different styles of spindle gouges, and I am not sure which is like Raffans or would be best for said tasks. For size, 1/2 inch (diameter I think). For bowl roughing tasks I would think the detail gouges would not be perfect, but I don't know. I have never used a spindle gouge, neither at school nor from the tools I got with the two lathes we have at home. Does anyone know what Raffan uses, or does anyone else have a spindle gouge that they use for bowl roughing? I'm sure the detail gouges would work for details and tenons, but I think bowl roughing would be the factor that would be most important as I would assume that whichever works best for roughing would also work for details (but details are less important as I can do those with a skew).
If anyone knows or has any ideas, let me know!

With a small spindle gouge you can turn almost anything. However the different tool types have evolved to enable different turning tasks to be performed more efficiently. There is a best way to sharpen roughing and detail gouges (going by Thompson's website photographs, the factory sharpening of their detail gouges is not ideal). A bowl gouge is essentially a detail gouge with a scraper welded along each flange. There are several different ways to sharpen bowl gouges. Which you choose depends on how many tools you'll use for your bowl turning, your intentions, your lathe set-up, etc. If you only use one bowl gouge it will need to have a coarser sharpening angle than the 25 to 30 degree optimal for spindle-turning tools. You might like to consult my new book Sharpening Woodturning Tools available only through Amazon. Best wishes, Mike Darlow

 

[Don Stephan]

My understanding is that a detail gouge, and Thompson's spindle detail gouge, are for spindle work when the cutting edge has to extend further beyond the tool rest. The extra metal under the flute makes the body stiffer, to resist vibration from longer overhangs.

When they were available I purchased a Raffan signature spindle roughing gouge and the bar diameter measured 5/8" diameter. I have used for more than a year a Thompson 3/4" bar diameter spindle gouge with a fingernail grind for roughing THE OUTSIDE of bowls. I like this spindle gouge for roughing the outside because it is less aggressive/less likely suddenly to take a much heaver cut than a bowl gouge.

One of the comments referred to a deep spindle gouge - no idea what that is. A detail gouge has a shallower flute than a spindle gouge.

My understanding is Thompson does not specifically make a bottom of the bowl gouge. Parabolic, U, and V bowl gouges all could be a bottom of the b owl gouge with the proper shape of the nose and cutting edge, in my opinion.

My understanding is that gouge bodies are more likely to vibrate the further the cutting edge extends beyond the tool rest. With curved tool rests and shorter straight tool rests angled, how often is it necessary to have the cutting edge extended further beyond the tool rest? I don't use carbide tipped tools and don't turn vases and urns, but having watched some videos it would seem likely in those situations the nose extends further beyond the tool rest, but I can't say if those tools used properly take such a heavy cut that vibration becomes a problem, the way it can with cutting gouges.

Great original question, thanks all for your input. Someone please correct any mis-statements I have made, they were unintentional and unintended.

 

[R Henrickson]

My understanding is that a detail gouge, and Thompson's spindle detail gouge, are for spindle work when the cutting edge has to extend further beyond the tool rest. The extra metal under the flute makes the body stiffer, to resist vibration from longer overhangs.

They are also ideal for multiaxis turning. I use them for many types of multiaxis turning, almost none of it spindles. The heavier shaft helps with interrupted cuts and relatively long distances beyond the tool rest.

 

[Michael Brown]

One of the comments referred to a deep spindle gouge - no idea what that is. A detail gouge has a shallower flute than a spindle gouge.

My understanding is Thompson does not specifically make a bottom of the bowl gouge.

1/2" Deep Flute Spindle Gouge - Thompson Lathe Tools

Spindle Gouge The Spindle Gouge has a flute depth of 50% of the stock diameter. This is a good all around spindle tool that is easy to control.

thompsonlathetools.com

3/4" Bottom Bowl Gouge - Thompson Lathe Tools

V Shape Bowl Gouge The V Shape Bowl Gouge is a balance between flute shape and depth to prevent clogging. A fingernail grind is provided that works well on a roughing or finishing cut… my personal favorite. U Shape Bowl Gouge...

thompsonlathetools.com

 

[hockenbery]

A detail gouge has a shallower flute than a spindle gouge.

This is true if the flutes have the same curve.
A more reliable distinction is the detail gouge flute is ground into the top of the bar.
The spindle gouge flute is ground into the bottom half of the bar after grinding off the top half of the bar.

 

[Michael Brown]

That shallow gouge seems to resemble what many brands call a Continental. I usually see them in 3/4 width, but I have now seen one in 1 1/4" which I think is massive and makes no sense to me.

 

[hockenbery]

That shallow gouge seems to resemble what many brands call a Continental. I usually see them in 3/4 width, but I have now seen one in 1 1/4" which I think is massive and makes no sense to me.

Yes the same tool

The 1 1/4 is a great roughing tool. It’s preferred over the SRG by many. It is finicky about making the user ride the bevel or pay for it.

A friend of mine used to use a 2” wide one when he did runs of lamp posts.
He turned the 15 footers on a lathe with a motorized tool rest.
When roughing to round he used the 2” wide continental and walked the length a couple times following the tool rest.
Quite a show. Round part done.

 

[Michael Brown]

I have heard of a following of the Continental, but I guess I would rather sweep back the wings of a SRG than a near flat bar. I imagine there's greater strength in the half cylinder and therefore better vibration dampening. Maybe I need to drink more of that koolade to get a real taste for it.

 

[hockenbery]

a near flat bar.

It can be a scary tool to use.
A skew is flat bar. It usually does the cleanest cut on a spindle.
That near flat bar of the continental leaves about the cleanest cut on a spindle of any gouge
Pull cut with and Ellsworth ground gouge gives a real clean cut too.
It’s the high shear angle.

Some people use the flat wing of a traditionally ground SRG to get that same high shear angle.
saw a guy from Rawlings a couple of times turn bats using only an SRG.
He turned with the flute down for finish cuts and to shape the nob.

 

[Isaac Litster]

Richard Raffan uses a 1/2” spindle gouge for roughing small and medium sized bowls, but I’m not sure I would recommend that for someone just starting out because he grinds his gouge asymmetrically and by hand, not with a jig. As a former production turner, he does this for speed. But it takes some experience to grind a gouge this way by hand.

Instead, I would recommend a bowl gouge for roughing out bowls and a 1/2” or 3/8” spindle gouge, ground in the standard way with a jig, for more refined cuts such as beads and coves.

In another post, I was recommended a cheap brand of tools such as Benjamin's Best, to learn sharpening before I buy a higher-end tool. This now seems like the thing to do with a spindle gouge, especially if I will need to learn how to sharpen it adequately.

 

[Isaac Litster]

Raffan says spindle gouges are cheaper, but I think the difference is negligible at best for anyone who isn't a high-volume production turner. It obviously works for him, but I don't see any technical advantage in using a spindle gouge instead of a bowl gouge for roughing. And he's is usually making fairly small bowls in those Youtube videos.

I don't have a spindle gouge at all, and there are other uses for them, so I think it would still be a good investment, aside from roughing, especially if that takes some practice to sharpen and use a spindle gouge for that.

 

[Isaac Litster]

There are a few people who could pick up an obsidian spear point and turn beautiful work. If you've never used a spindle gouge, why would you want to start by trying it on something for which it is less well suited than a tool designed specifically for the purpose? Why handicap yourself? You can do what you like, and woodturners are famous for developing their own peculiar ways of working, but I would strongly recommend beginning from the easiest point, which is usually the conventional method.

I've turned quite a few bowls, and I like the challenge, especially because I have a lot of cheap wood, I would like to figure out what I like. Maybe I will buy a cheap one, and from there I can decide whether or not it is for me. I am proficient with a bowl gouge, but I could use a spindle gouge for other uses aside from bowls.

 

[Isaac Litster]

There are spindle and bowl 'detail' gouges. Both have a shallow flute, and I really don't see much difference between them other than how the noses can be ground, and there are many different nose shape grinds. Most are 'fingernail' grind, which is a bit more rounded rather than pointed. The pointed ones are fine for getting deep into beads for crisp clean detains. The spindle detail gouges are also ground to a more acute bevel, again to get down into the bottom of a bead. I only have one 'detail' style gouge that I use on bowls, and it is ground with a ) nose shape and I use it for a BOB (bottom of bowl) tool, so 65 degree nose bevel angle. I would say for now to use a parabolic fluted gouge, or one of the V flute gouges from D Way or Thompson. If you only get one gouge, use a swept back nose grind, which is more of a 'one tool does it all' type gouge. If you are getting 2, then I go for a 40/40 grind for heavy roughing, and a BOB tool, which has more of a blunt nose angle and a little sweep to the nose, ) shape. I prefer the specialized tools for bowl turning as I think they work better than the swept back grinds. For me, I do all of my heavy roughing cuts with scrapers. I do have a number of videos up on You Tube, mostly geared to bowl turning.

robo hippy

Thanks! As I am reading the replies, I think a cheap Benjamin's Best spindle gouge ground to a fingernail nose should be a good starting place for me. I have a bowl gouge from Thompson, and at school, I use a Henry Taylor, but I am curious about what can be done with a spindle gouge, so I think I will get a BB and see!

 

[Isaac Litster]

That shallow gouge seems to resemble what many brands call a Continental. I usually see them in 3/4 width, but I have now seen one in 1 1/4" which I think is massive and makes no sense to me.

That is funny, I saw a giant one at a yard sale last year that could have been about that size or larger, and it is a mystery how or why you would use such a tool!

 

[hockenbery]

Thanks! As I am reading the replies, I think a cheap Benjamin's Best spindle gouge ground to a fingernail nose should be a good starting place for me. I have a bowl gouge from Thompson, and at school, I use a Henry Taylor, but I am curious about what can be done with a spindle gouge, so I think I will get a BB and see!

I use 3/8 spindle gouge a lot. I use one to turn tenons, finish bottoms, turn foot details, final work….
if I could only have 2 tools i
they would be a 3/8 spindle gouge and an Ellsworth ground bowl gouge

I have a couple of Packard 3/8 spindle gouges that I use on just about everything I turn.

 

[Doug Freeman]

@Isaac Litster Your thought of getting a cheaper 1st type of a tool is the preferred path IMO. There are 2 benefits: 1) initial learning - grinding up a 1/3rd of the cost tool is much easier to stomach, 2) trying new grinds - there are many grind types and bevel angles. Good to have a cheaper tool to try out the new grind, as sometimes it requires significant metal removal.

I have a lot of BB tools from when I started so I could asses various sizes and different grind profiles and bevel angles. After a dozen yrs of turning, I still use them for evaluating changes before grinding up expensive tools.

I’m a big Raffan fan, but I don’t try to copy all of his methods. A 1/2” spindle gouge can be used to rough out as he shows, but it isn’t as robust in the hands as a bowl gouge. Give yourself some time before veering down some of these rabbit trails.

I use a 1/2” sg for final details on tenons and spindle work (still working on Raffan’s bowl bead method, far from perfecting it), and a 3/8” sg for smaller spindle work. Both are “ foundation” tools.

 

[Don Stephan]

A local woodturning group can be a great resource as different members may have different gouge shapes and bevels, and may allow others to test drive them.