Well, not really spiritual for me, but it is good therapy....
robo hippy
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"Spiritual turning"......
- Thread starter odie
- Start date
I love using my rose engine lathe. It makes amazing pieces, and facilitates so many artistic opportunities. And when I watch the shape emerge from the wood, it is truly magical!
I love my Rose Engine, I think I have like 21 rosettes and it pumps and has phasing but that is what it was built for. A certain rosette gives a given output that is expected, no surprises. You know if there was anything spiritual in my life it would be witnessing the birth of my daughter. I still get goose bumps when I relive that occasion in my mind.
Spiritual turning doesn't have to produce a good product. It's the state of mind you're in when turning or doing anything. Spiritual turning can free you up, loosen your tightness and calm your mind. The process becomes enjoyable and the product takes care of itself.
odie
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I was target shooting with my son the other day, and while I was doing that, I was thinking about "spiritual turning" and how similar it is to precision trigger control.
I don't reload for ultimate accuracy, like some precision target shooters do, but I do have a Russian Izhmash Biathalon precision target rifle that is capable of one hole 5-shot groups at 25yds....this, by using appropriate match grade standard velocity 22LR ammunition. At one time, about 20yrs ago, I competed with this rifle in an online match.
With "spiritual turning", you become one with your sensitivity, combining physical perception with observable technical data. This is the same with target shooting using input like breathing rhythm, and even your own heart beat can be influential when attempting to put a bullet in the same hole as the last shot! Knowing when your trigger will break, is a given.....but, there is more to it than that!
Every time you put lathe tool to wood, you need to be thinking about blending your spiritual being with that available data the tool and lathe are giving you, so the intertwining of the two things can be mentally contemplated....and then improved upon.
-----odie-----
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What is the fun at 25 yards. I prefer 100 with my Mosin Nagant. Not a precise group but can do 4 inch so far. Maybe better later with more practice this fall
odie
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Gerald.....this is not intended to be a discussion about firearms......but precision shooting as related to turning wood in spiritual concept.
-----odie-----
Interesting thread. Not sure if "spiritual" is exactly the right word from my viewpoint, if there is a single perfect word for it. Woodturning is not going to save your soul although it surely can salve some of life's bumps and bruises if you let it. In this group it might well be religious in nature.
It's not a vapid superficial faux-swooning at seeing a couple swirls of paint on a canvas leaving the viewer a quivering mass of flesh on the floor pondering the vociferous cry of the artist's immortal soul. If that's what we are talking about, I'm out of here so fast it will make your head spin.
It's not a just technical mastery of man vs nature, man vs machine, or a purely practical application to produce parts. But developing those technical skills are a big part of what we do.
I see it as more of a connection or a grounding. A connection to earth, forest, and people from different walks of life who share a commonality. A connection to the past and in a way sort of a bridge to the future. A bridge to the future for those that view the work we leave behind and more importantly those we teach. What makes that connection? As others have said, attention to detail, focus, in the zone, therapy are all part and parcel of the whole. People make this possible. People that made the lathe, people that made M42 steel, people that cut down the tree, people that transport the tree...etc.
Life here in the USA has become undeniably more stressful in the last decade(s), greater and growing divisions in society, fighting for the almighty dollar, loss of civility, combined with a lack of strong leadership. More and more it has become "me" instead of "us". Grounding ourselves in an immersive activity like woodturning helps to ease some of those stresses and perhaps offers us a different perspective. I know that my stress flows out of my gouge and into the shavings then falls to the floor. All of my worries cease for a time and that is more valuable to me than gold.
The comparison to precision match shooting is a very valid one. As a past Texas state champion archer and shooting sports competitor many of the very same skills and attributes are present. The most important connection between the two is probably consistency. Consistency is only developed over time and requires long hours of practice. So much practice that doing one or the other could be called a "practice" itself. I still need a lot of practice at the lathe. I learn something new every time I stand in front of it. When the learning stops, so will the practice. In the meantime, it's the journey that's most important of all.
At the end of the day, it's hard to describe precisely what "it" is.
It's not a vapid superficial faux-swooning at seeing a couple swirls of paint on a canvas leaving the viewer a quivering mass of flesh on the floor pondering the vociferous cry of the artist's immortal soul. If that's what we are talking about, I'm out of here so fast it will make your head spin.
It's not a just technical mastery of man vs nature, man vs machine, or a purely practical application to produce parts. But developing those technical skills are a big part of what we do.
I see it as more of a connection or a grounding. A connection to earth, forest, and people from different walks of life who share a commonality. A connection to the past and in a way sort of a bridge to the future. A bridge to the future for those that view the work we leave behind and more importantly those we teach. What makes that connection? As others have said, attention to detail, focus, in the zone, therapy are all part and parcel of the whole. People make this possible. People that made the lathe, people that made M42 steel, people that cut down the tree, people that transport the tree...etc.
Life here in the USA has become undeniably more stressful in the last decade(s), greater and growing divisions in society, fighting for the almighty dollar, loss of civility, combined with a lack of strong leadership. More and more it has become "me" instead of "us". Grounding ourselves in an immersive activity like woodturning helps to ease some of those stresses and perhaps offers us a different perspective. I know that my stress flows out of my gouge and into the shavings then falls to the floor. All of my worries cease for a time and that is more valuable to me than gold.
The comparison to precision match shooting is a very valid one. As a past Texas state champion archer and shooting sports competitor many of the very same skills and attributes are present. The most important connection between the two is probably consistency. Consistency is only developed over time and requires long hours of practice. So much practice that doing one or the other could be called a "practice" itself. I still need a lot of practice at the lathe. I learn something new every time I stand in front of it. When the learning stops, so will the practice. In the meantime, it's the journey that's most important of all.
At the end of the day, it's hard to describe precisely what "it" is.
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odie
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Thanks for your thoughtful input on this subject, Monty.......
Whatever word you or I choose to describe whatever "it" is, I think we are discussing something that is real to both of us.....at a level where the intersections of our thoughts may be similar.
-----odie-----
Monty,
I write not to disrespect nor disregard paragraphs 1, 2, 3, and 6 but to applaud your message in paragraphs 4 and 5.
Thank you
Perhaps the "Zen" of really getting into anything. One of my brothers marked off one bucket list thing this last summer, a 1 mile shoot. You really have to get into the zone to do some thing like that. Me, I want a blow gun. The fancy new ones are pretty cool....
robo hippy
robo hippy
Donna Banfield
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"...it's the journey that's most important of all."
This is why I do it.
This is why I do it.
Monty, learning will never stop unless you want it to, IMHO. Yes, you and Donna have it right (I think!): Journeys are incredibly fascinating.
Bill B, If there was anything spiritual in my life, it was when my dear beloved wife was passing and I asked why. She used to travel to Erie for her dog competition.
An interesting post touching on 'the difficult to define' area that exists in all crafts. Back in the day apprenticeships where long compared to day, ie when I grew up a plumbing apprenticeship was 7years.
But apart from what any apprentice is taught there is another area of 'impartation' something a master does/gives to his pupils .
In the Greek the word is 'metadidomi' to give over, to share something more than the basics or mechanics of the craft. Its still around today but its been blurred by the volume of information and the speed of which it comes. As it comes from a certain relationship between the master and the apprentice. If it exists where does it exist now? In the west the speed of life almost universally pushes it away and makes it elusive, hard to find and many find it to hard to pursue. Places like Japan, Korea in Asia have it in the various crafts but it has to be sort out even there there are influences blurring lines.
Will it be lost eventually? I dont think so we see crafts being lost then found and revitalise again, martial arts would be a good example.
But apart from what any apprentice is taught there is another area of 'impartation' something a master does/gives to his pupils .
In the Greek the word is 'metadidomi' to give over, to share something more than the basics or mechanics of the craft. Its still around today but its been blurred by the volume of information and the speed of which it comes. As it comes from a certain relationship between the master and the apprentice. If it exists where does it exist now? In the west the speed of life almost universally pushes it away and makes it elusive, hard to find and many find it to hard to pursue. Places like Japan, Korea in Asia have it in the various crafts but it has to be sort out even there there are influences blurring lines.
Will it be lost eventually? I dont think so we see crafts being lost then found and revitalise again, martial arts would be a good example.
Are we searching for accolades, awards, or rewards? OR do we seek education and instructions?
impartation implies education and instruction. The rewards, awards are the blurring of the lines something we are good at in the west
odie
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A century ago, education and instruction was sourced through only a very few outlets. For many, it was left up to individual fortitude to move beyond the bonds of ignorance.....and, find rare uncommon knowledge.
These days, with the explosion of mass communication, multiplied by internet access, it's hard for someone to sort through the multitudes of information sources available to him.
From my first post in this thread:
We've heard the woodturner's saying: "I'm just one tool away from greatness!"......but, those who unwittingly subscribe to this.....are missing the forest, because the trees are in the way!
-----odie-----
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odie
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The term "spiritual" has commonality with, and maybe can be seen as being the equivalent, or even intertwined with a "sensual" experience while lathe turning. Just as some will confuse the term "spiritual" to have a religious meaning, so the same confusion will exist with those who will interpret the term "sensual" to have sexual implications. Neither is true, but the entire concept is definitely something that can be embraced by just about anyone who takes the time and effort to explore the intricacies of the applying the principles of either spiritual or sensual to their lathe turning......and, when they do.....the results can be profound!
-o-
Note: Some may even call it the "Zen" of turning......and no matter how, or by what terms we wish to apply to it.....there is something there that can be had.....and whatever IT is, it can change your entire experience, while turning on the lathe to such a degree that the results can be seen, touched, enjoyed, experienced by others who have a heightened sense of awareness, and appreciation. Also, whatever IT is, it can be cultivated to levels that can only be experienced by those who recognize what IT is......
-o-
Note: Some may even call it the "Zen" of turning......and no matter how, or by what terms we wish to apply to it.....there is something there that can be had.....and whatever IT is, it can change your entire experience, while turning on the lathe to such a degree that the results can be seen, touched, enjoyed, experienced by others who have a heightened sense of awareness, and appreciation. Also, whatever IT is, it can be cultivated to levels that can only be experienced by those who recognize what IT is......
Very interesting perspectives. When I put a piece in the lathe, with few exceptions, I have a general idea as to what I want to make. Once I start, that idea might change once the wood starts “talking” or I make a mistake. The only measurement I take is how close am I to blowing through a piece. Everything else is what is pleasing to my eye. I’m still working towards the perfect piece and doubt I will ever make it. But, I will keep trying.
I can see all sides to this discussion. Wether it is a spiritual connection to wood, being in the zone or just really, really enjoying what we do, I’ll take it.
A friend of mine wanted to watch me turn a piece. He brought his wife who is Chinese and speaks very little English. When I finished a small hollow form with nice grain she said “I see picture.” I told my friend she gets it! I asked him to ask her to write down her name in Chinese on a pad which she did. I signed the bottom to her using Chinese writing. When I handed to her, I was overwhelmed with her gratitude. Money can’t buy that. It can’t buy the spiritual either.
I can see all sides to this discussion. Wether it is a spiritual connection to wood, being in the zone or just really, really enjoying what we do, I’ll take it.
A friend of mine wanted to watch me turn a piece. He brought his wife who is Chinese and speaks very little English. When I finished a small hollow form with nice grain she said “I see picture.” I told my friend she gets it! I asked him to ask her to write down her name in Chinese on a pad which she did. I signed the bottom to her using Chinese writing. When I handed to her, I was overwhelmed with her gratitude. Money can’t buy that. It can’t buy the spiritual either.
Donna Banfield
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Yes.
I suspect spirituality is more connected to what you place on the table, play through the speakers, project on the screen or hang on the wall. I have been moved by all at one time or another. Never by the tools or process.
I fully agree with you, Jerry. But oh, what a long time and amount of money it took me to agree with your statement. I now strive to be a very proficient user of four or five tools instead of a mediocre user of many of specialty tools. I have a supply of tools that had a lot of promise but no follow through that are now just collecting dust.
odie
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Some turners will never understand the concept of "spiritual turning", and I have come to accept that. I persist in bringing it up, because to my thinking, it's a very important aspect to attaining the cleanest, most perfect cut possible......a cut that can be executed on the driest, densest wood, while performing the most difficult cuts in the most difficult of situations, on the most difficult species of woods and erratic grain orientations.....all while avoiding any tearout.....and very importantly....completely eliminating the need for any power sanding whatsoever.
When "spiritual turning" is realized, cultivated and then optimized.....the door opens to the most incredible detailed results that are possible while the wood is spinning on the lathe....
-o-
When "spiritual turning" is realized, cultivated and then optimized.....the door opens to the most incredible detailed results that are possible while the wood is spinning on the lathe....
-o-
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Well Odie I cannot agree with your term but will add that turning is both elevating in an exciting way and very calming . It is exciting just seeing what will come off the lathe, No I do not plan each turning. It is calming because it takes my mind off all other things in the world by both concentrating and enjoying what is on the lathe,
odie
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Hi Gerald.....
As I tried to convey, I do understand and accept what turning means to you, and a few others here, because I have walked a mile in your shoes! Hopefully there might be a few ears that will hear what I have to say, while attempting to understand the concept of "spiritual turning" through a process of practical application.....and then begin a personal journey to a new level of what is possible!
-o-
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My great great great great grandfather Andrew Kopp, and his son, my great great great uncle George, made Pennsylvania long rifles, Andrew from around 1820 to 1860 and George, from 1830 to 1870.
Our family was fortunate to collect five of these over the years. To hold these exquisite pieces of art in your hands, and know it was made by a direct ancestor, is an indescribable feel.
I’m fortunate that I’ve only been turning a year and a half, so I’m just a hobbyist. I don’t try to sell stuff, but I’m starting to get some commissions by word of mouth.
So I still know who the recipient of each piece I make is, a friend or family member or an acquaintance of one of them.
So not to sound hokey or anything, but I literally pray while I’m turning, that the piece is as beautiful and functional as possible, for the honor and glory of God, and that He helps me make the piece well, so it blesses the recipient, a fellow child of God. When I remember to do this, the piece always has a special character to it that is often lacking when I’m just experimenting with a new technique.
Maybe this isn’t what was meant by “spiritual turning” in the initial post, but it is for me.
Actually this makes more sense than what I posted.
Jer
Being some what of a novice with my tool skills, I took a class with Matt Monaco yesterday to try to improve. It’s pretty impressive when you witness excellent/ effortless tool skills.
While turning my piece, I’m grinding and being completely challenged. Matt comes by and applies the lightest touch with the same tool/ piece, SMH.
It occurs to me that while I get so much joy and mind relief from turning, the next level is will be even better. Thanks for showing me that Matt.
While turning my piece, I’m grinding and being completely challenged. Matt comes by and applies the lightest touch with the same tool/ piece, SMH.
It occurs to me that while I get so much joy and mind relief from turning, the next level is will be even better. Thanks for showing me that Matt.
odie
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I can certainly see the "spiritual" connection you have to your ancestors, Brian......and, we cherish all our ancestorial heritage. My brother has a desk that was made by one of my distant relatives that is a treasure in my family. I can identify with that kind of connection to our past.
It's easy to conclude that "spiritual turning" isn't something that can be realized.....unless it's experienced. Most turners, whether novice or long-time turners will never experience it.....but a few will.
-o-